Tenor of Discussion on YWN: When Discussions Become Acrimonious
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- This topic has 146 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 4 months ago by notpashut.
November 18, 2008 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #625809
notpashut – it was clear. My sister was not allowed to invite anyone who held by the eruv even if they agreed not to carry. The only possible thought I could have is that he didnt trust that others wouldnt actually carry.
While I understand your analogy, there are SOME people who would probably argue that Dinkins was a great mayor (for whatever reason they have). You would vehemently disagree but should respect their right to the opinion. I recognize the psak for the eruv is very controversial (and most say its not acceptable), but it should be respected that there are some orthodox rabbis who say its ok.November 18, 2008 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #625810
If at 12 noon someone says that it’s the middle of the night would you vehemently disagree but respect their opinion? Obviously not, you would say that they are making a mistake. Someone like R’ Moshe Feinstein or R’ Elyashiv who has learned masechta eiruvin a couple of hundred times sees the fact that these rabbonim are wrong as clearly as you see that it’s day at 12 noon.
Again, every qualified rov has the right to pasken, I’m just trying to help you out here.November 18, 2008 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #625811
actually, if its 12 noon, it is the middle of the night somewhere. There are ways to argue almost every point.
While I agree that the Brooklyn eruv is very controversial, the Rabbi who gave me the psak didnt just make it up. He consulted with his poskim also.
They dont have to agree with the psak, but they shouldnt sabotage my psak, which is effectively what they are doing.November 18, 2008 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #625812
I see we are just going to have to disagree 🙂November 18, 2008 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #625813
notpashut: its ok because you added a smiley, which makes me happy 🙂November 18, 2008 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #625814
joseph- which teshuva was printed first??? Siman 84 or 88? THAT is the important question, not where they are filed in the sefer.
notpashut- you are playing with semantics. Unless you can show that it is an obvious mistake in a teshuva or an opinion(like saying purim falls on the 15th of nisssan) no disagreements can ever be called mistakes by the other side. This is evident from a multitude of teshuvos and events throughout Jewish history. Many have disagreed with others on very important matters – even more important matters than an eiruv- and yet the other side was never accused of making a “mistake”.
A consensus tends to emerge afetr a while and then, the “other” psak disappears into history. But, as long as no consensus has emerged, BOTH sides are right and you cannot “Passel” the other side, even if you may think that there is a chilul shabbos involved.
I think it is absolutely weong for a Rov to give a Psak that is NOT for his kehillah and “force” this Psak on other people. The ROV who does nto hold of the eiruv can tell HIS congregants what to do but how can he bascially force his Psak on other people? Wrong, wrong, wrongNovember 18, 2008 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #625815JosephParticipant
rabbiofberlin, I haven’t read it yet, but according to Pashuteh Yid’s wording above “Siman 88, he seems to be more definitive after being shown an exact map of Brooklyn” it seems it was the latter.November 19, 2008 1:52 am at 1:52 am #625816I can only tryMember
At the risk of being called a “bleeding heart conservative”, I feel very bad for you.
I never heard of such a chumra that you can’t even go to your sister’s house on Shabbos, even without carrying based on reliance upon the eruv. If that is the case, how can anyone ever have frei people over on Shabbos? I am not being cholek on anybody on my own daas, but simply saying I never heard of such a thing and wonder if there was a misunderstanding.
Any and all other posters – have you?
Hello – hope you’ve been well.
Do you really feel you are qualified to call Rav Feivel Cohen (among others) “Wrong, wrong, wrong”?November 19, 2008 2:26 am at 2:26 am #625817lesschumrasParticipant
Does anybody know why Queens Blvd ( a much larger road with more traffic ) does not invalidate eruvim in Queens but Ocean Parkway invalidates the Flatbush eiruv ?November 19, 2008 2:33 am at 2:33 am #625818veyatzivMember
By the way just wondering, I lived in Flatbush for over twenty years and have never seen “the flatbush eiruv”. Does anyone know of its location? From where to where does it go? If it is ever “down” how does one find out about it?November 19, 2008 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #625819
If what you are looking for is a consensus, clearly the consensus of the rabbonim is that the eiruv is passul, an opinion which is held by the gedolai hador as well as the leading rabbonim in flatbush – which included the fierce opposition of R’ Avigdor Miller Ztz”l R’ Shmuel Birenbaum Ztz”l and 98% of all local rabbonim.
As a matter of fact the only Rov who actually had the gall to go against all the rabbonim past & present to put up the Eiruv doesn’t even live in Brooklyn.
Once again, I’m not saying each person can’t rely on his rav as an individual, but how can you say wrong, wrong, wrong?November 19, 2008 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #625820
I can only try – it didnt actually affect me, because I lived in her apartment building and we had an eruv chatzeros. BUT, it did affect my other sister who was not invited over. She could come over if she chose to (and did), but couldnt be invited for meals and stuff. I felt terrible for her.November 19, 2008 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #625822
Joseph: you took the liberty of asking ICOT whether he is a mispallel by Rav Feivel earlier in this thread.
Are YOU a mispallel by Rav Feivel?November 20, 2008 3:14 am at 3:14 am #625823shtark bochurMember
pearl: he happens to be one of the biggest chasidim of rav feivelNovember 20, 2008 3:42 am at 3:42 am #625824
Just an addendum to this post….
notpashut- As much as I respect the various Rabbonim- R’Avigdor Miller zz’l was never a Posek and neither was R’Shmuel Berenbaum zz’l. I do not know about the eiruv of Flatbush but there is an eiruv in Boro Park and it was organized by many outstanding poskim.
The fact is that there are people who believe in the eiruv and some do not. Every person should act according to his Rov and conscience. Each side has good reasons for theri Psak and let the Kehal follow those they want to follow.
There is no machlokes in Queens because even the ones who may not hold of an eiru allow the other side to practice theri way of halacha- as has been the case for man ycentuires until a Psak is ultimately accepted by the whole Klal.November 20, 2008 5:50 am at 5:50 am #625825
Shtark bochur –
So I realized. I was just wondering if he is a mispallel there, too. Apparently, it is OK for him to ask someone else this question, but when it comes to himself, he’s pleading the fifth.November 20, 2008 10:35 am at 10:35 am #625826
JOSEPH PAGE 3 THE MEFORSHEI HATORAH HAVE FEW ANSWERS LGABAY HOW AVROHOM AVINU WAS ABLE TO OBSERVE SHABBOS 1 TERITZ ”PONOM YOFOS..HE DID WORK ON MOTZEI SHABBOS AND BY NON-JEW HALAYLAH HOLACH ACHRER HAYOM SO HE WAS NOT OIVER ON ‘YOM VELALOH LO YOISBOSU’ THINK THE PONIM YOFOS IS ON THAT POSIK..November 20, 2008 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #625830I can only tryMember
I assume your question is not being answered because people here don’t know all of the issues involved and don’t want to misinform you.
I remember that when the Flatbush eruv was first put up – I think about 20-25 years ago – our rabonim told us not to use it and mentioned some reasons why, but since then I basically just remembered the “no” as far as using it and moved on. When the Boro Park eruv was put up, I asked a Boro Parker why people who didn’t hold of the Flatbush eruv used that one, and he told me the reason was the elevated subway lines that almost completely surround Boro Park. I did a quick google search of “flatbush eruv problems” just out of curiousity and found many issues discussed that I wasn’t aware of, such as population density for example.
These vague recolections and explanations by non-rabonim are the reason I am uncomfortable discussing this issue as if I know authoratatively what the issues are.
I appreciate your concern, but I have no problem with Joseph’s question.
I see it as if I am schmoozing with someone during my work commute, who when it turns out we may have a shul or something else in common asks me where I daven, send my kids to yeshiva, and so on.
Since this is a public forum I declined to answer.November 20, 2008 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #625831
I really didn’t want to have to bring this up ’cause it’s going to open a pandoras box but you’ve forced my hand.
I’m going to write this & write it only once, without elaborating – I refuse to be drawn into a debate on the matter.
To the best of my understanding, aside for the Halachic issues involved, the GEDOLIM over the last forty years (who don’t have to be poskim) in their wisdom, i.e. Da’as Torah, WHICH WE DON’T HAVE! felt that if an eiruv would be constructed & used by the masses in Flatbush & BP it would lead to a churban (vehamaivin yovin).
For this reason they are so so so stringent & unflexible on the matter. (not that what I said before isn’t also true).
Therefore a posek who is Maikel is in the minority halachically, as well as upsetting the Da’as Torah of R’ Henkin, The Satmar Rav, R’ Moshe Feinstein, R’ Bik, R’ Avigdor Miller, R’ Shmuel Berenbaum & many many others Zecher Tzadikim livracha as well as all the leading gedolim & poskim of today who are vehemently opposed.
For the tenth time, I’m not here to tell you what to do, but if you want to know why they can’t just “live & let live” – that’s why.
You don’t have to like it & i’m not going to debate it, but those are the facts (as I understand them).November 20, 2008 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #625832
notpashut-thank you for your reply but I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. What churban?? Obviously, I am NOT ‘vehamevin jovin”. I have lived In Eret YIsroel and in Europe and virtually everywhere there were eiruvim, so you will have to excuse me that I have no clue what you are talking about.
I do understand the actual differences in halacha (whether it is a reshus horabim mi-deoraisa,etc..) but you will have to be clearer about what you wrote. If you don’t want to, then, I am sorry to say, I (and others) will have no idea what you are talking about.November 20, 2008 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #625833gavra_at_workParticipant
“To the best of my understanding, aside for the Halachic issues involved, the GEDOLIM over the last forty years (who don’t have to be poskim) in their wisdom, i.e. Da’as Torah, WHICH WE DON’T HAVE! felt that if an eiruv would be constructed & used by the masses in Flatbush & BP it would lead to a churban (vehamaivin yovin).”
Now I’m curious. I’ve been to Flatbush and don’t understand (although the Halachic issues are there). Could you please point me somewhere where it explains why there would be a churban, even if you feel it should not be printed here?
Thanks.November 20, 2008 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #625834
Being that it seems as though you are both earnest in your assertations that you don’t have any idea what I’m talking about, I’ll try to explain A BIT.
Again, I am loathe to discuss this in public because then every balabos & his brother-in-law will throw in their two cents regarding an issue upon which they (myself included) have no right to offer an opinion.
Basically, the underlying issue is tznius, which would then lead to all other kinds of problems, as follows.
They felt that if an eiruv was put up, all the women would then want to gather outside with their strollers & shmooze. Being that it’s shabbos & you’re out in the street amongst the goyim (not in a bungalow colony) everyone would have to be dressed in their finest outfits which would then turn into a competition, which would then cause a major nisayon for a woman not to wear make-up on shabbos which would then cause the men to take note of all the women hanging around outside of shul, which would then cause a whole social scene to develop, which would then find each family’s boys & girls to also start schmoozing which would lead to………………………………………………………… which would eventually bring about the spiritual destruction of the community.
Unfortunately they weren’t as clueless as some of us may think & they weren’t paranoid either.
I have presented it very b’kitzur & will not get involved in a give-&-take on the subject.
Gedolai Yisroel don’t need me to defend them from every clown reading YWN.
(I don’t mean to insinuate that ROB or GAW are clowns, I’m referring to all the posters in general who seem to enjoy gedolim-bashing).
BTW I believe that R’ Aharon Kotler Ztz”l would not allow an eiruv in Lakewood for the same reason.
B’kitzur They were & are so strongly against it because they feel that it’s spiritual Pikuach Nefesh.
P.S. And by the way, for all you who think you discovered America they all also know all the Poskim who speak about how important it is for a community to have an eiruv, you haven’t chapped them on a mishna berura.November 20, 2008 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #625835
Obviously this is all aside from the Halachic angle which we discussed previously.November 20, 2008 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #625836
well, notpashut–I have NEVER,NEVER heard the logic you are talking about. Look, I am not going to question your words and maybe some of the Rabbonim you mentioned did think that way, BUT there is an eiruv (actually about four diferent ones) in Jerushalaim, there are eiruvim in every city in Eretz Yisroel, there is a big eiruv in Monsey and in Skver and numerous other cities across the world. Obviously, the thinking that you wrote about did not bother any of the many,many,many Poskim and gedolim who made those eiruvim throughout the centuries. So, not to make an eiruv in Flatbush or Boro park, based on halachich reasons, “dos vershtei ich”, but to avoid making an eiruv for the reasons you quote negates every single halacha because, maybe this and maybe that….
Basically, I stand with my original opinion, you are welcome to follow your Rav and allow other people to follow his.November 21, 2008 12:51 am at 12:51 am #625837
to not pushet..according to your svazra the whole concept of eiruv is batel..also tznius ..what about girls or women who have children to baby sit..so you sre penelizing just those who are in between and cant get a baby sitter..so the whole svarah ein lo raglayim..what about yomtov women getting to gether with strollers,maybe we should be mevatel yom tov?..antchuldiged but hot nit kain pshat.November 21, 2008 12:56 am at 12:56 am #625838
to not pashut..the reason the holy divreu yoel was not for eiruv has nothing to do with halacha or tznious according to sefer ‘eish chanmidos’ biog. of hagoan hatzaddik michoel ber wissmandel..by his grandson(by the way he was very much for it)November 21, 2008 1:03 am at 1:03 am #625839
not paushet..you say ‘..tznious’..adderabe, the main reason the the geonim of yesteryear held its a mitzvah gedoleh to construct eirev (where permisseble) was so that noshim tzidkonious can go our WITH THEIR STROLLERS and not be locked in all shabbos(also mentined in ‘ish chamidos)..so dont know where you come with this hogwash of not making eiruv because of tznious …November 21, 2008 8:50 am at 8:50 am #625841
to not pashut..you say..’…dont have idea what im talkng about’ we are afraid you dont..your going into the sugyeh of ‘kol kevidah bas melech penime’ which was disscussed a lenth in other articles..nowhere is it pakened l’halacha that an isha is not allowed to go out and take a stroll to enjoy the fresh air..see mesechtas soteNovember 21, 2008 10:14 am at 10:14 am #625842Pashuteh YidMember
Reb Jent, all of the sudden you are a big maikil? Can a leopard change his spots?
NotPashut, what you write is almost kefirah. I can’t believe any Rov would say that we have a right to change Hilchos Shabbos to serve as a method of crowd control. It borders on total sheker. Where is the midas haemes? If you feel people shouldn’t congregate or dress up, then tell them not to. But to twist an unrelated halacha to serve your end seems totally intellectually dishonest.
Why not say that making hakafas in shul in Simchas Torah is a Christian minhag in order to get the women who bring there kids to stay home. If you feel they should stay home (which I don’t and don’t think anybody does, but just as an example), then be honest and tell them to stay home. Don’t tell them a sheker that it is a Christian minhag to achieve your purpose, when in fact it is a holy Jewish minhag.
This is a perversion of the entire Torah and midas haemes.November 21, 2008 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #625843gavra_at_workParticipant
“everyone would have to be dressed in their finest outfits which would then turn into a competition, which would then cause a major nisayon for a woman not to wear make-up on shabbos which would then cause the men to take note of all the women hanging around outside of shul, which would then cause a whole social scene to develop, which would then find each family’s boys & girls to also start schmoozing which would lead to………………………………………………………… which would eventually bring about the spiritual destruction of the community.”
This seems to be an “in town” issue, and would not apply anywhere else.
Thank you for the Svorah.November 21, 2008 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #625844
notpashut – I hate to say this but Brooklyn has a MAJOR problem with teenagers socializing in coed situations unwatched. Maybe if there was an eruv, parents would be out watching their kids, rather than sending them off with no supervision.November 21, 2008 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #625845
PAHUTE YID ..THERE IS NO ‘KULEH’ INVOLVED..MEIKEL WHAT?November 21, 2008 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #625848
TO PASHUTE YID MIR SEE THAT YOU ARE AFRAID TO USE ‘TALIBAN’ SO YOU STARTED TO BE MEDAME TO CHR..IANS..BUT ITS THE SAME INSULTNovember 22, 2008 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #625849
To all of you
I will simply repeat – Gedolai Yisroel (past & present) don’t need me to defend them from every clown in the YWN coffee room.
Suffice it to say that there are plenty of answers to all your brilliant ha’oros & if you were really interested in hearing them you would ask the appropriate poskim – who by the way are not so difficult to speak to.November 23, 2008 2:40 am at 2:40 am #625851
notpashut – are you sure you understood them correctly? They may have said that was a good side effect of banning an eruv, but not a reason. I really cant imagine they would say that because it really violates the essence of Torah. Other religions make up laws, ours doesnt.November 23, 2008 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #625852
to mr clowm (aka notpashute yid.as you say the posters on YWN are a bunch of clowns and since you are one of the posters so leshitoscha you are definately a clown as you crowned yourself ‘clown’ we will respect your tile you knighted your self)see chasam soifer o’hachaim tsuvous 99..he didnt seem to be worried about your am haratzushen chashash,and dont come with your stories that there was no chashsh tzinous those days..and we can elaborate on that with reoyous but a clown like you is not worth itNovember 23, 2008 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #625853
bemichilas k’vod toroscha haktana,
vaist ois you’re mammash an ernste talmid chochom being that it seems you poshut can’t write one proper sentence in english.
Pashtus R’ Moishe hut gevoost the Chasam Soifer & it’s mistaver to say that l’choira R’ Elyashiv is at least as big a buki as you – uber efsher nisht – takeh – es ken zein that you know better.November 23, 2008 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #625854
to me clown…please refer to us where the holy igsros moshe pakened one should not make a eruv because of tzenious issuesNovember 23, 2008 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #625855
to mr clown..(by now you know who we mean)instead of hiding behind the cloak of non exixtant igros moshe, meran eliashev legabai the reason of not making eruve because of tznious issues please admit your made up am haratzes.November 24, 2008 5:15 am at 5:15 am #625856Chuck SchwabParticipant
jent1150, I don’t know about the tznius aspect, but Reb Moshe in the Igros Moshe paskened VERY CLEARLY that an eiruv is ossur in Brooklyn and Manhattan.November 24, 2008 5:18 am at 5:18 am #625857
joseph page 3 re:avrohom avinu carrying tzitzes on shabbos..the tzittes were considered a tachshit on the beged.on the other hand one goes out with beged shaino mettizotzes kehalacha that renders it posil so it is not considered a tchshut(hows mah spellin’, mr clown?)November 24, 2008 8:39 am at 8:39 am #625858
I didn’t either have a problem with the question, or I wouldn’t have asked him the same question.
Being that we are all agreed that this is an OK question to ask –
Joseph: do you daven by Rav Feivel??November 24, 2008 10:12 am at 10:12 am #625859
mr schwab…as you can see from the posters, the issue is not carrying or not carrying in the bp or flatb eiruv, the issue is the am haratzes of the reason mr clown said why we should not construct an eiruvNovember 24, 2008 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #625860
joseph re:A.A CRRYING TZITES ON SHABBOS,SO MAYBE SHABBOS HE DIDNT WEAR..also see ohr hachaim hakodosh on posik`’reuvein bechori ata..’ according to him will farenfer a lot of shverekeiten bnoigayh this subject(shomrui huavos es hatorah) (hows mah’ spellin’ mr clown?)November 24, 2008 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #625861
to mr clown….mir have a friend a rov in..who is the son of the world renown poisek…(lives in eretz yisroel)asked him he if he ever heard this savara (no erev because tznious)so he said never, it is new ‘chiddish’ from some ‘poskim’..asked him if his father ever mentioned to yes make eiruv so noshim tzidknious can go out with thier lechtige little yiddishe neshmos, so he said didnt hear him say explicitly but words that are mashma so. now again mr shwab..we are not dvelving in hilchos erevin whether it is permissible in BP or FLAT..let one adhere to his poisek(haws mah’ spellin’ mr clown?)November 24, 2008 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #625862
jent (which you aint)
mir kumt ois that pashtus you just don’t farshtay vus meint “TENOR” or “ACRIMONIOUS”.
Ken zein “DISCUSSION” also never made it into your choshuva vocabulary.
Zei Gezunt – DevaileNovember 24, 2008 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #625863
I didn’t notice any change in the spelling of your last few words & as usual couldn’t understand the rest of your post to be able to respond to it.
As I said earlier, this is not a topic I am willing to discuss or debate in this forum;
what I have stated is well known to anyone who grew up in the “yeshivishe velt”.
Anyone who does not believe it or disagrees can either check it out for yourselves or choose to ignore it.
Hatzlacha Rabba to you all (even jent). Bli”n I will not be posting any more on this thread.
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