Terror in the West Bank

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  • #618015

    kj chusid
    Participant

    A fresh wave of terror has descended upon the Jewish community, severing the lives of innocent Jews; leaving parents without their children and children begging for their parents. Thursday, June 30th, 2016. Thirteen year old Hallel Yaffa Ariel was murdered in her sleep when a Palestinian man infiltrated her home, snuffing out a young life in full bloom.

    The next day devastation visited the Mark family, when a Palestinian sniper gunned down their car, which was driving near Chevron, claiming the father, Rabbi Michael Mark, while severely wounding the mother.

    The heart of the Jewish nation is broken, our spirits debilitated, our pain mirrored with that of our brothers. Our agony is coupled with righteous anger over the catalyst that brought this situation upon our hapless brethren.

    #1160525

    adocs
    Participant

    Are you saying that if we stopped “the development and inhabitation of the settlements in the volatile West Bank” , and only lived in “undisputed” cities like tel aviv, that the terrorists would stop their attacks?

    Because that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

    #1160526

    ChanieE
    Participant

    You’re right. We should not live where we are not wanted. So there go Ramapo, Brooklyn, Lakewood, … Last I heard the neighbors were not so happy about KJ either. The rallying call used to be “Jews to Palestine” (meaning, get out of Europe) then it became “Jews out of Palestine” (completely denying the historical fact of our relationship with the land) so where should we go? Some of our cousins suggest the Mediterranean.

    #1160527

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The settlements are far less safe than Tel Aviv or Ramapo.

    #1160528

    writersoul
    Member

    People make a choice to go and live there despite the risk, but it’s sad that there’s a risk in the first place.

    #1160529

    kj chusid
    Participant

    I wasn’t C”V implying that Israeli sovereignty over any of the holy land is justified. I was just trying to show the danger of purposely stoking conflict with settlements which are heresy and crime just like the whole state of Israel

    #1160530

    Avi K
    Participant

    KJ spy,

    We have a mitzva to go to war if necessary in order to conquer EY (Ramban, Sefer HaMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). Once Bnei beraq was the border. When someone expressed doubt as to whether to live there the Chazon Ish told him that if Jews would not live there Tel Aviv would be the border.

    In any case, the risk of being a victim in Judea and Samaria or any other part of EY is far less than in any American city. There is some risk but if people take risks for material parnassa how much more so for spiritual parnass.

    #1160531

    takahmamash
    Participant

    kj, I believe it was one of the Rebbes of Satmar who said something similar after the bodies of the 3 k’doshim were found 2 years ago. He blamed the tragedy on their parents because they made the decision to live in Yehuda/the Shomron.

    He wasn’t right then, and you’re not right now. I guess that puts you in good company.

    #1160532

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Reb KJ, with all due respect you may be right theoretically. But the enemy we face today will not be happy until the whole of Eretz Yisroel is Judenrein Chas v’sholom. Remember the PLO existed and swore to destroy Israel before 1967, when there were no ‘occupied’ territories.

    Sharon gave them Gaza, did that make them happy? No, they just saw it as a weakness and used and continue to use that land as a launchpad to attack Yiedden.

    Please stop turning on other Yiedden and let us use these days of bein hametzorim to build achdus among us, so we can merit the geula shleima bimheira. Omein!

    #1160533

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He wasn’t right then, and you’re not right now. I guess that puts you in good company.

    He was right, but his timing was bad, and he shouldn’t have said it publicly.

    #1160534

    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    “Tova HaAretz Me’od Me’od”.

    It’s appropriate – sad, but appropriate – that around the time of Bein HaMetzarim, when we were forcibly expelled from Eretz Yisrael and our sovereignty over the land stolen, as well as around the time that we read the Parsha about the Meraglim, who spoke the “Dibas HaAretz”, those of the ilk of kj chusid feel the need to repeat the mistakes of our forefathers.

    First, what is the “West Bank”? Do you even know the origin of the term? The correct historic and Jewish terminology is Yehuda and Shomron – and the 19 years of occupation by the Hashemite Kingdom does not change thousands of years of usage.

    Second, the leaders of kj chusid’s sect (amongst many others) had similar advice in the 1930s and 1940s – “Better to stay safe in Europe than go to live in a dangerous place with all those Arabs”. That didn’t work out that well, did it?

    So, please, kj chusid – spare me your hypocritical “sympathy”, as we don’t need it here in the land promised to us by HKB”H. I will not say that everything is perfect here – there is work to be done – but the Mitzva of Yishuv E”Y – ALL OF E”Y – is something that requires hard work and yes, sometimes sacrifice. I say this as no “armchair Zionist” – I have one son currently on active duty as an combat soldier in the IDF, and I Daven for his safe return each day. I have three additional sons who will be going in to the IDF to perform the Avodas HaKodesh of defending the Am Hashem HaYoshev b’Tzion within the next five years. I wish it were not necessary to send them into harms’ way, but as of now it is. What is not necessary is the nattering of those who can not recognize the Yad Hashem in what happens in our Admas Kodesh each and every day.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1160535

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Please KJ chusid spare us your phoniness.

    Start by protesting your own communitiy’s hisgaros be’umos regarding the KJ annexation

    #1160536

    apushatayid
    Participant

    This is your takeaway from Shiva asar bitamuz?

    #1160537

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Start by protesting your own communitiy’s hisgaros be’umos regarding the KJ annexation

    I guess I should have mentioned that the settlements are not only less safe than Tel Aviv and Ramapo, but also more dangerous than Kiryas Yoel.

    #1160538

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    The ignorance and stupidity knows no bounds. When a Jews gets killed (ch’v) in Williamsburg, we can give many reasons, probably far more accurate why it happened.

    Have those fools ever been in Yehuda or Shomron? Not that they care, but for those that do, Israel is 9 miles wide without it and could ch’v be cut in half in minutes which puts the lives of millions of Jews in jeopardy.

    All of Israel’s major population centers and the airport are in short rocket range without Yehuda and Shomron.

    For the most part, most places in Yehuda or Shomron are safe. There are some hot spots. Things happen everywhere, including the U.S., which is headed in the direction of Europe. When you guys finally wake up, where will you go?

    More important, where does Hashem want you to be? Before you give your idiotic ignorant answers, Hashem promised us that the Land will lay fallow until it’s time for us to come home and then it will bloom again. This is exactly what happened. This nais, is something that never happened anywhere else in the world.

    So remember, where you attack Eretz Yisroel, you act like the Erev Rav and the Miraglim and are not doing Ratzon Hashem.

    I live in the Shomron. I have absolutely no fear living here or driving on it’s roads. Look around you. We are far safer than you think you are and we are the one’s that have Emunah, not you!

    #1160539

    takahmamash
    Participant

    I guess I should have mentioned that the settlements are not only less safe than Tel Aviv and Ramapo, but also more dangerous than Kiryas Yoel.

    I’ve lived in the Shomron for 1 week shy of 9 years. You are wrong.

    #1160540

    Softwords
    Participant

    kj chusid – you’re making a mistake about NBN. They don’t recruit (at least not to my knowledge), rather they provide a service for those looking to move to Israel.

    As far as staying in America you are making a common mistake that people made in Germany. Need I say more?

    #1160541

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    This thread isnt really about safety.

    In case you missed it

    ” I wasn’t C”V implying that Israeli sovereignty over any of the holy land is justified. I was just trying to show the danger of purposely stoking conflict with settlements which are heresy and crime just like the whole state of Israel”

    (as if we c”v we needed his justification to return to our land lol)

    If his concern is “purposely stoking conflict” he can start his criticism at home.

    Of course if his concern is good old anti-zionism. Thats fine too, but dont dress it up as something else

    #1160542

    Naftush-2
    Participant

    kj chusid lets his ideology mask several facts. First, the largest and fastest-growing “settlements” in JS are haredi. Rav Shach’s death opened the floodgates. Second, hasidic groups preceding these localities by establishing Emmanuel, which failed due to its developers’ corruption and not due to safety concerns. Finally, the which-is-safer debate is fallacious. Central Mongolia is safer than all the places mentioned but no yidn are rushing there.

    #1160543

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    This thread isnt really about safety.

    It’s about an ideology which says to put your children at risk to settle more parts of Eretz Yisroel, as some of the pro-settlement posters have admitted.

    How many KJ residents have been killed by terrorists? Your analogy is ludicrous.

    #1160544

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    DY

    “It’s about an ideology which says to put your children at risk to settle more parts of Eretz Yisroel,”

    Now, I’m not saying I agree with that ideology, but I hear it, and there obviously was a time when this applied. There where 7 years of milchama to conquer E”Y, there were many more wars after to hold on to it. The idea of giving life to settle E”Y isnt automatically wrong, and nowhere in this thread does KJ say why it is wrong. The trip to E”Y once upon a time was long and dangerous. Many Gedolim made the trip some making it others dying on the way.

    Because that isnt really what he is talking about

    youve been tricked.

    This is what KJ chusid, the op, says it is about:

    “I wasn’t C”V implying that Israeli sovereignty over any of the holy land is justified. I was just trying to show the danger of purposely stoking conflict with settlements which are heresy and crime just like the whole state of Israel”

    why mix in “the whole state of Israel” Most areas of ISrael are as safe as NY?

    This isnt a thread about safety.

    #1160545

    lesschumras
    Participant

    KJ, if he Satmars are so concerned about safety, why are they putting their childrens lives at risk by moving into some of the most dangerous inner city New Jersey neigborhoods simply because the locations make the large houses inexpensive?

    edited

    #1160546

    charliehall
    Participant

    Sorry, but Israel is safer than New York. Even in the territories.

    And the idea that Jews can’t live in some suburban WASP enclave ought to offend us; kal v’chomer a place that is part of your Holy Land.

    #1160547

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    DaasYochid: You couldn’t be more wrong. We live in the Shomron. We are perfectly safe. Your knowledge comes from media that looks to cause us harm. When Jews are harmed or killed ch’v, we feel it on a personal level. In your communities, while it affects people there too, but instances that occur in the States are downplayed, especially compared how things are portrayed here.

    If you look at the statistics in the States on violent crimes, it far surpases what we experience in Eretz Yisroel, including wars. It just has a greater impact on us, since we are all family in words and deeds.

    We live in a beautiful community, that while there are Frum people here of all stripes, there is a phenomenal sense of community and achdus to the likes I have never seen in all my years in the three communities I’ve lived in the U.S.

    There is no antagonism over what Yarmulkah someone wears and every variety exists here.

    We have Chareidi, Chardal, Dati Leumi and CHABAD (though they fit in one of the other groups, I mention them for a reason). We have Ashkenazim, Sefardim and in other sections of our Yishuv, there are Chilomin too. Everyone interacts with each other and gets along without the judgmentalism that we see on this forum and most of the communities that people herein live.

    This is how it’s supposed to be.

    From thousands of miles away, you hardly know the reality more than we do.

    #1160548

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, your children are at risk everywhere. How many Jews were killed in the WTC attacks? How many in attacks in Europe? Not to mention intermarriage and cultural assimilation – which also affects the frum community.

    #1160549

    Joseph
    Participant

    If you compare it to the crime rates of inner-city LA, Chicago and Philadelphia in neighborhoods that have almost no Jews and are ridden with black on black crime and drug killings, you might be able to prove the adage about lies, damned lies, and statistics. If you compare the territories in Israel, with its wars and terrorism, to the crime rates in Kiryas Yoel, Boro Park, Williamsburg and Lakewood, you’ll get a better picture.

    #1160550

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Charlie and Barry, you are using statistics which are not accurate for drum communities.

    Avi, sure, but that doesn’t justify making them even less safe. They’re at risk everywhere, but I still don’t let them play in traffic.

    #1160551

    yichusdik
    Participant

    KJ, we Jews pray that you come back to the faith and nation of your ancestors, and we hope to welcome you into the fold of Jews who follow the Torah God gave us, inhabit and support the land God gave us, and live in brotherhood with the people God made us.

    As it stands and from your words you seem to have left.

    I’d love to welcome you back.

    #1160552

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    This is another interesting discussion but it is just another disguised way of arguing whether there is value or not in the medinah as it is now.

    First, it is absurd to suggest that anywhere in Israel is as safe as anywhere in the US for a Jew, especially a Frum jew. That there is rampant gun violence in the African American community in Chicago has no bearing on any of us.

    I do not know if they keep statistics on this, but I would venture to guess that there are FAR fewer frum jews who die from murder/terrorism in the US than in Israel when considering percentage of total population as opposed to raw numbers, which are meaningless(and that does not even take into account the better health care).

    So to me it is clear that 1) it is more dangerous in the settlements, and 2) it is still good that Jews are willing to live there.

    Of course, my #2 conclusion is based on my conclusion that the medinah is a good thing, which brings me to my point, this is just another way of arguing about whether the Medinah is a good thing or not.

    #1160553

    simcha613
    Participant

    If we want to remove the medina aspect of this topic, the question is, do we have a right to put our lives in danger to move to Eretz Yisroel and more specifically to Yehuda and Shomron? The problem with this question is that it is already assuming our lives are in danger in EY and the “proof” is that it is more dangerous than America.

    Whether that’s true or not seems irrelevant to the halachic topic at hand. We don’t define sakana by comparing it other similar actions. There is an objective definition to sakana, and if living in EY meets that definition, then we have a serious question. If not, then we don’t, regardless of how much safer America may be.

    #1160554

    golfer
    Participant

    BarryLS,

    Sounds amazing.

    Are you allowed to tell me where you live?

    I’m ready to move.

    Since I didn’t quite get it sooner, a few politicians and pseudo-politicians have appeared on the scene to make it clear I’m not welcome here.

    And just by the way, I love when people who antagonize their non-Jewish neighbors and act as if they own the place quote sentences about hisgarus ba’umos.

    This is Galus. They know Eretz Yisrael hasn’t been redeemed yet. But they seem to think parts of the U.S. have been redeemed and handed over to them as their own personal memshalah. And while they are disgusted and dismayed by people in E”Y who sadly stray from Derech HaTorah and live lives that are not decent, they will happily vote for any menuval who offers to fund aforementioned memshalah.

    #1160555

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    @simcha, I think the OP was trying to phrase the question in a way that avoided the halacha, but maybe I misread it.

    And even as you phrased it, even if you are halachically permitted to move there, why would you unless you also conclude you have a duty to do so(unless you conclude it is just as safe, which it is not)?

    Which of course, leads you right back into the real question (is the medinah a good thing or not). And similarly, without checking, I would bet that (almost?) no one who holds that the medinah is hashem’s will would also hold that it is assur to move to shomron.

    #1160556

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is an objective definition to sakana

    There isn’t just one dividing line, and something can be assur or muttar depending on the context, and something can be muttar but still ill advised.

    Your assertion that the issue is binary is not true.

    #1160557

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So to me it is clear that 1) it is more dangerous in the settlements,

    Of course, and thank you for being objective about that.

    and 2) it is still good that Jews are willing to live there.

    Why does that need to follow? Why can’t the Medina be a good thing (or, I think more to the point, there be a mitzvah to live in Eretz Yisroel) but stay away from the more dangerous areas?

    #1160558

    simcha613
    Participant

    Miami- or you can conclude that is plenty safe (even if not exactly as safe as Boro Park) and that the benefits of living in EY outweigh the negatives. This doesn’t have to do anything with the medina. Even if you don’t have a duty to live there, it may still be mitzvah kiyumis, and there are numerous Chazals of the benefits of the kedushah of EY.

    #1160559

    writersoul
    Member

    Two points:

    1) The most deadly attacks this year have taken place in undisputed areas of Israel, like Tel Aviv. While there are some kinds of terror more likely in the West Bank, by this logic, nowhere is really safe. The natural conclusion would seem to be, why would any Jews put their children in danger by living in this eretz ocheles yoshveha? And you see where that goes.

    2) Everyone’s talking about people living in settlements like they’re all radical rightists moving there for ideological reasons. You do realize that Beitar and (IIRC) Modiin Illit are in the West Bank? Along with a huge portion of the charedi communities in Yerushalayim, where so many car attacks took place last year? It was enlightening being in Beitar for Shabbos among a bunch of chassidishe women who were simultaneously talking about the crazy settlers and being nervous about a two state solution which could theoretically put them out of the homes they’d made, mostly for neighborhood or financial reasons. And my personal closest scrape with any sort of terror was an infiltration across Beitar’s fence that occurred three houses from where I was staying. These aren’t radical extremists, these are people looking to live in places that are basically mainstream now.

    #1160560

    Elazar Valk
    Participant

    First of all, there is no such place as “the west bank (of Jordan)”, rather is it called Judea/Samaria. I live in large Jewish shtetl in Binyamin and it is the safest place in Israel. I would be a lot more worried walking around Jerusalem, or in Europe for that matter. On the contrary, all American Jews should come here and hasten the Geula.

    #1160561

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Once again I do not support Israeli sovereignty over ANY of the holy land and eagerly await the day that The entire state of Israel is wiped off the map(peacefully IY”H) on a side I agree that the government of KJ is corrupted and needs to be overhauled.

    #1160562

    Joseph
    Participant

    Along with a huge portion of the charedi communities in Yerushalayim, where so many car attacks took place last year?

    Meah Shearim and the other Chareidi neighborhoods are in the western portion of Yerushalayim, within the Green Line.

    #1160563

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    @DY–your point #2 is a fair point. I suppose I could argue that if you hold per Rambam that its a mitzvah to settle and conquer, that probably someone thinks that mehadrin is the settlements, which are still perhaps not 100% conquered. That said, my larger point was simply that I suspect that if you asked the question of “do you think the medinah is hashem’s will or in violation of hashem’s will” you would have people line up on similar sides, though I grant you, there is room for the middle ground position you point out.

    @simcha– Fair enough.

    #1160564

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Golfer: Karnei Shomron. Your post is very much on target. Tragically and to their peril, many Jews in the U.S. think they live in Eir HaKodesh and that their Golus is, for all practical purposes, over.

    DaasYochid: When you live here, then you can speak from first hand experience. Until then, you have no clue what you are talking about.

    You listen to media nonsense. No one is denying that incidents occur, but it is nothing like you think.

    At the same time, we are far safer than most of the world and we have Hashem’s protection far greater than you do.

    #1160565

    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    kj chusid: “I do not support Israeli sovereignty over ANY of the holy land and eagerly await the day that The entire state of Israel is wiped off the map(peacefully IY”H)”

    That pretty much sums up a certain viewpoint. Any other hypocritical statements about how terrible it is that Jews are living in such a “dangerous place” is just a diversionary tactic by those who follow leaders who espouse that view.

    As to the validity of that viewpoint – remember, 83% of Bnei Yisrael did not want to leave Mitzrayim – and we all know what the Midrash says happened to them.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1160566

    writersoul
    Member

    “Meah Shearim and the other Chareidi neighborhoods are in the western portion of Yerushalayim, within the Green Line.”

    And the Old City, French Hill, Neve Yaakov, Pisgat Zeev, Givat Zeev, Maalot Dafna, Ramat Eshkol, Ramat Shlomo… among others I’m forgetting, these all contain a lot of charedim, with some very key parts of the charedi community, and all are in the West Bank.

    #1160567

    Joseph
    Participant

    Old City has a material number of chareidim?

    #1160568

    writersoul
    Member

    I don’t know, but it’s pretty darn significant to all Jews, including charedim… (That said I do know a bunch.)

    But all those other neighborhoods do have plenty of charedim.

    #1160569

    Avi K
    Participant

    KJ, that was the position of the spies and the Erev Rav

    Writer, Mea Shearim started as a settlement. At that time the Old City wall was the Green Line.

    #1160570

    writersoul
    Member

    AviK- what does that have anything to do with anything? I was just countering Joe’s assertion that the Green Line has nothing to do with charedim.

    #1160571

    Joseph
    Participant

    writersoul: Your being technical in your retort. While there are a handful (relative to the population distribution of Chareidim in Israel) of Chareidim living outside the Green Line, even that handful tends to live close to the Green Line in relatively safer areas than the RZ settlements further out. And those Chareidi towns are anticipated by all to remain within a post-peace agreement Israel.

    #1160572

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Not Emanuel.

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