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July 29, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #815450quark2Member
“Well, according to many the reason for the issur of electricity is that it produces a spark. I am pretty sure that when using a device like a laptop computer or cell phone, no spark is produced.
Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.
(the spark is produced by flipping a switch and completing a circuit. Cell phones don’t work that way, I think.)”
Bob said to ask a rabbi. Bob, i ask a rabbi a question i have in torah or halacha, not a question i have in electricity. Rabbis aren’t electricians.
I found the question on a website where they have people who are knowledgeble of the subject of electricity answering questions. Here are two answers that i found:
“Electronic switches produce no spark”
and
“1. Light switches actually connects a circuit PHYSICALLY. This can create a spark. You cann test this at night, slowly move a light switch on (try to get it right in the middle). You will see sparks at the switch as it connects the circuit.
2. Modern computers and electronics use an ELECTRONIC circuit to connect the the power, so there is not a physical on/off. When you press the power button a microchip connects the power without a significant spark”
I am not allowed to post the link here, but they are clearly saying that there is no spark in an electronic circuit used in computers and other electronics
July 29, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #815451quark2Memberabout ksivah, there are many issues. To name but a few offhand:
There is no “maaseh ksivah”.
The writing does not last (derabanan, and combined with other things could be muttar because of shvus dshvus and/or safek derabanan)
Writing on a computer or cell phone screen is actually made of of thousands of tiny dots. According to some, this is not considered writing.
According to some kosev is only with ksav ashuris
When you are mitztaref these various reasons you can come up with a heter.
Another thing, it might be a gramma since pushing the button causes a chain reaction in the phone, first the signal is sent to the computer within the phone, then it is sent to another part of the computer, the output, then from the output to the screen input, and finally to the screen itself. So many steps happen, which could be considered gramma.
July 29, 2011 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #815452shlishiMemberMaybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.
What they “feel” is absolutely meaningless. They are mecheleli Shabbos befarhesya, and frankly they may be chayiv misa. Much worse then if they would be eating pork 6 days a week.
a microchip connects the power without a significant spark
“Significant” spark? An “insignificant” spark is also assur.
July 29, 2011 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #815453quark2Membershlishi you can’t be medayak in this guys words like he is a Rishon.
He is clearly contrasting a physical switch and an electronic switch, in that one creates a spark, and one does not. If you look at his answer holistically, this is apparent.
July 31, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #815454ChachamParticipantelectricity is assur on shabbos because of boneh lfi the chazon ish in OC 50:9. Other isuurrim discussed in meorei eish from rav shlomo zalman are , tikun manah, maaveir etc.
texting will definitely be also the issur of kkosev. Reb shmuel vosner amongst other poskim mantain that typing on a computer is an issur deoraysah. Ain kan makom lehaarich bazeh
If you want you can add all sorts of other problems that are derabnan including muksteh ( kli shemelachto lissur!) uvdah dchol etc.
There is also no gerama at all in the issur of electricity.
And keep in mind that the people who text on shabbos are not doing it because they can write a teshuvah being mattir it. It is clearly an issur deoraysah which will make these peoples wine yayin nesech.
And being able to be mattir something with sevaros does not always help you. Many of the reformers and conservatives all had long teshuvas exploaining why what they did is muttar.
July 31, 2011 3:18 am at 3:18 am #815455yitayningwutParticipantquark2-
About ksivah, there are many issues.
I have seen people use the svaros you are mentioning, but frankly, from a straightforward-learning-through-the-sugya-and-trying-to-keep-an-open-mind perspective I don’t see how any of those arguments really hold ground. Specifically speaking:
1) Of course there is a ma’aseh kesivah. A stamp is a ma’aseh kesiva too. The poskim say as a davar pashut that a printing press is kesivah mid’oraisa. Why should typing be different?
2) The writing may not last but it is still assur mid’rabbanan. Even where the writing and what is being written on is not permanent it is assur mid’rabbanan, and this is accepted to be the shitah of the mechaber and the Rema.*
3) I really don’t understand this ‘electronic bits’ argument. I hear it a lot but it sounds like people just saying stuff. I would appreciate if you could demonstrate, in a clear halachic manner, why this is not as bad as kesiva she’aino miskayem. Remember, being that it is accepted that ksav she’aino miskayem on top of something which doesn’t last is assur mid’rabbanan, and this looks like that, the burden of proof is on you to clearly demonstrate why this is better.
4) I don’t believe any honest person learning the sugya will be willing to say that one is not chayav for writing in English, even as a tziruf.
5) Many steps do not make something a grama. This is mefurash in the gemara in a few places – I don’t have seforim in front of me at the moment but one place is toward the end of (I think) BK where a peson is chayav for killing someone by throwing something which ricochets of something else which in turn kills the person; similarly in Chullin a shechita is kosher in such a fashion. It is very clear all over that when one is a direct cause even if several steps away he is not a grama, and if I am mistaken please show me otherwise. Moreover, grama is often considered just as good as your own action when the effect takes place mammash immediately. This is true with regard to murder and shechita as well. Therefore even if typing could be called a grama I am doubtful that it would be muttar.
One final note: I don’t think the intention of this forum was to debate how the halachic process works, but personally, I don’t believe you can ever make a “tziruf” if you don’t at least have one svara that stands alone. Only when you have that, yet it’s not enough because it isn’t a generally accepted thing or whatever, then you are metzaref other tzedadim to be meikil. But here all of the tzedadim seem wishy-washy to me.
*Here is the background for this halacha (written by myself a little while back, no plagiarism here).
??? (??? ?? ??:) ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????. ???? ????”? (??”? ???’ ??? ??”?) ?”? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???’ ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???’, ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???’ ????, ??”?. ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????, ??”? ?????? ???? ???”? (?”? ??’ ??) ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ??”? (??’ ?? ?”?). ?????? ??”? ??? ??”? (??’ ??) ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????. ??? ???? ???”? ???”? ??. ???? ??”? (???”?) ??? ???????? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????”? ???? ???? ??????? ????. ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???????? ????”? ????? (?? ??:-??. ???? ?) ?”? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??”? ??? ???’ ?? ???? ???’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???”? ???? ???? ??”? ?”? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????, ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?????, ?????”? ?”? ????”? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???’ ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????’ ??? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????????? ????’ ???’ ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??’, ??”?. ???? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??”? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????’ ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??”? ???”?, ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???”? ??”? ???? ??????? ??? ?”? ???”? ?”?.
July 31, 2011 3:58 am at 3:58 am #815457msseekerMember“Well, according to many the reason for the issur of electricity is that it produces a spark. I am pretty sure that when using a device like a laptop computer or cell phone, no spark is produced.
Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.”
MODS, WHERE ARE YOU? Is this Yeshiva World? Can I still let my teens visit the CR?
Hey! No prying personal details. We aren’t telling where we are. -95
July 31, 2011 4:48 am at 4:48 am #815458HaLeiViParticipantAries,
Being Muksa depends on the prohibition of using the item. That is why a watch, which you use to view the time with, is not Muksa, while a phone, that is meant to do Melachos with, would be Muksa.
July 31, 2011 4:51 am at 4:51 am #815459HaLeiViParticipantI think a lot of quark’s arguments are taken from Hilchos Chol Hamoed, where they make more sense. The Grama, though, just doesn’t fly. By the way, Shvus Leshvus is not a Hetter.
July 31, 2011 4:57 am at 4:57 am #815461☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI see a couple of reasons why texting would not be considered kesiva. Some poskim (perhaps not most, but I have heard of it) do not consider disconnected dots to be a ksav (the context in which I heard this was opening a bottle cap with the date on it). Also, unlike all of the examples found in poskim of ksav she’eino miskayeim, there are no real letters, just an electronic simulation. Saying, however, that there is no meisah k’sivah is wrong; if we were to consider the ksav to be a ksav, pushing the buttons would be a meisah k’sivah.
However, all contemporary poskim accept the view that any use of electricity is assur either mid’rabbonan or mid’oraisa, so using a phone to text would definitely be assur, and any statements to the contrary are pure rationalization.
The reason people text, IMO, is because it is addictive behavior. Although, as aries pointed out, many smokers don’t smoke on Shabbos, unfortunately, some do.
July 31, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #815463I can only tryMemberquark2-
I will respond to several things you said, and try to be mekatzer with each response.
Maybe people who text on Shabbos feel this way.
A psak halocha decided by someone with the requisite smicha and subject knowledge is what “counts”, not the “feeling” of someone looking to be moreh heter.
Bob said to ask a rabbi. Bob, i ask a rabbi a question i have in torah or halacha, not a question i have in electricity. Rabbis aren’t electricians.
Therefore, Rabbis can’t pasken on monetary issues (they’re not bankers or economists), kashrus (they’re not butchers), and pretty much any other topic.
Electricity’s workings aren’t rocket science. I assume anyone who paskens on these topics makes sure he has the required knowledge before doing so.
“1. Light switches actually connects a circuit PHYSICALLY. This can create a spark. You cann test this at night, slowly move a light switch on (try to get it right in the middle). You will see sparks at the switch as it connects the circuit.
2. Modern computers and electronics use an ELECTRONIC circuit to connect the the power, so there is not a physical on/off. When you press the power button a microchip connects the power without a significant spark”
The person who wrote this doesn’t know as much about electricity and electronics as you may think he does.
I Googled what you posted and read what he wrote.
First of all, it’s a bad idea to force an arc in a light switch. It can actually damage the switch’s contacts because of the heat that can quickly generate.
Second of all, even modern computers use a mechanical switch to power on. That switch then triggers an electronic circuit that keeps the power running. The mechanical switch is low voltage so the spark will be smaller than a 110-volt switch (like the older computers had) would create.
Third of all, I think I saw on that site that fluorescent lighting works with an electric arc. That’s incorrect. There are different types of fluorescent ignitions, but none of them use arcing.
I notice you are focusing on the “spark” portion of the discussion. There are several other halachic issues with electricity on Shabbos.
July 31, 2011 5:58 am at 5:58 am #815464quark2Memberyitayningwut
I can’t go into everything at length here, but just briefly:
1.
“The poskim say as a davar pashut that a printing press is kesivah mid’oraisa.”
I highly doubt it. If that were the case, our Sifrei Torah would be written using a printing press. (leshmah and maaseh ksivah have the same parameters b’pashtus. If it is a maaseh ksivah, which means it is like writing by hand with a quill, then it is enough for leshmah as well.)
2.
I acknowledged that it is derabanan. But it would still help out when being metztaraf other reasons that could render it a sefak (machlokos rishonim usually has the din of a safek), or a shvus deshvus.
And here you actually “helped out” the tzad for heter, by bringing up another issue: it is ksav shaeno miskayam al gabay davar sheino miskayam. You allude that this is a mechlokos, which gives more room for a tziruf leheter with other issues.
3. I fail to see the similarity. Ksav sheino miskayam is full %100 ksav, only it will be erased. Ksav made up of many little dots, is, according to some opinions, not ksav at all
(the practical application is soda cap dates and numbers. I am not saying that you should take on this heter personnaly, but when we are deciding whether or not these people are not considered jewish for many things, and someone even brought up yayin nesech, I think that this should definitely be taken into consideration.)
4. I believe that it is the shita of Rishonim that one is only chayav for ksav ashuris. See the Chayei Adam shabbos 37:5 (“rov” poskim etc.)
5.
The sugya of grama is too wide and deep to go into at length here.
If i am correct that there are rishonim who hold that you need a “maaseh ksivah” for hilchos shabbos (notably the Ran is of the opinion that maaseh ksivah is only a din in Hilchos sefer torah, but i think that this is a chiddush of the Ran that not everyone agrees with), then you have a pretty clear heter already: it is for sure not more than a derabonon because it is ano miskayaim, and these rishonim would make it a safek derabonon between them and the Ran.
That is just one way that these reasons can be used in tandem to find a heter, using the first sevara.
(btw, i am not sure that i used the word “metztaraf” here the way it is used by the more recent poskim. I only meant that by using two sevaros together, there might be a heter to be found, in some way…)
Anyway it was an enjoyable discussion 🙂
Due to time issues, i may or may not be able to respond, if you respond again to this.
July 31, 2011 6:07 am at 6:07 am #815465☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantquark,
You haven’t addressed the issue of use of electricity. There is not one accepted posek who would go along with you.
July 31, 2011 6:09 am at 6:09 am #815466HachamMemberWhat about electricity renders it impermissible on Shabbos? i.e. If a computer is on 24/7, what would be the issur to click on bookmarks to go to websites (no typing)?
July 31, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #815467quark2MemberI will explain more about “maashe ksivah”
For some things, you need a “maaseh ksivah” which means to actually write out the letters. For example, the Halachah of “chuk tochos” that you are probably familiar with.
I think that it is pashut that this is no better than chuk tochos. You are causing a letter to form on a screen, but only by a roundabout way (causing the circuits in the chip in the phone to align in the right way etc.). That is why chuk tochos is not ksivah (letter was formed in roundabout way). This is no better.
Whether or not Shabbos needs a “maaseh ksivah”, like i said, the Ran holds that it doesn’t, but i think that there are those that hold that it does (if not it probably wouldn’t be known in the “yeshiva world” as “the Ran’s chiddush”). But of this i am not certain, as i am not actually learning the sugya at the present time.
July 31, 2011 6:29 am at 6:29 am #815468☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantWhat about electricity renders it impermissible on Shabbos?
The Chazon Ish holds it is boneh. Others, I believe, hold it is m’saken mana.
I think that it is pashut that this is no better than chuk tochos.
Do you have a source that “chuk tochos” is muttar on Shabbos?
Would hitting “print”, activating your computer’s printer to produce a sheet of writing, be muttar according to you?
July 31, 2011 6:33 am at 6:33 am #815469quark2MemberAbout electricity. The reason for the issur of electricity is the matter of much debate. The one that i am most familiar with, is the issue of the spark. I posted something earlier about there not being a spark in devices like cell phones or laptops. I have done some further research into this, and it appears that my first source was mistaken.
Even so, there may be other issues. I don’t really know much about the inner workings of a cell phone. I don’t know when and how the spark is created. In a regular light switch, it happens the instant you flip the switch and complete the circuit. It is possible, from my perspective of relative unfamiliarity with the workings of a phone, that the spark is a grama.
I don’t know if that makes it mutar, but it certainly makes it much less of a chilul shabbos.
I think that the other main shita, besides for those that hold that electricity is derabonon, is that since a light or a fan is attached to the house, by completing the circuit you are doing boneh.
This definitely would not apply to a cell phone, which is not connected to the house (even a connection with a charger i don’t think is a connection for this, because when you turn on the phone you are completing a circuit that is wholly within the phone, and is still not connected to the house. That would be for using the phone while it is plugged into the charger. As for plugging the phone into a charger that is connected to the wall, i don’t know how that circuit works.)
Again, i have never really studied the issue/sugya of electricity on shabbos at length, in a concentrated manner. Those who did would probably be able to find various issues with this comment, whether leheter, or li’issur. But “Kach hie darkah shel torah…”
July 31, 2011 6:41 am at 6:41 am #815470☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI don’t know if that makes it mutar, but it certainly makes it much less of a chilul shabbos.
grama is still assur and chillul Shabbos. If we are dealing with an issur d’rabbonon (which according to many, we are), what difference does it make that you call it “less” of a chillul Shabbos?
since a light or a fan is attached to the house, by completing the circuit you are doing boneh.
I don’t think it has anything to do with being connected to a house. Most understand the Chazon Ish to mean that you were “boneh” the circuit.
BTW, check the other thread for the source of the Ramba”m.
July 31, 2011 6:44 am at 6:44 am #815471I can only tryMemberCorrection / clarification to my previous post:
1) Old-fashioned fluorescent lights that use replaceable starters do have an electric arc within the starter module (but not within the bulb itself). I wasn’t aware of this, and just saw it when checking to make sure my facts were correct.
2) The flow of electricity from one end of the bulb to the other is considered an arc. However, this arc doesn’t involve the heat and/or sparking that (AFAIK) cause the halachic equivalent of aish.
July 31, 2011 6:45 am at 6:45 am #815472HachamMemberIf a computer is on 24/7, how are you boneh a circuit by clicking on a bookmark? Alternatively, how is it m’saken mana?
July 31, 2011 6:51 am at 6:51 am #815473HachamMemberI can only try: How does the points you just made in your clarification effect the impressibility of turning on a fluorescent light (either old-fashioned or newer) on Shabbos?
July 31, 2011 6:52 am at 6:52 am #815474☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIf a computer is on 24/7, how are you boneh a circuit by clicking on a bookmark? Alternatively, how is it m’saken mana?
A micro circuit is connected, to the best of my knowledge. I don’t know about m’saken mana in this case.
July 31, 2011 6:55 am at 6:55 am #815475I can only tryMemberHacham-
Every keypress and mouse click is physically completing a circuit.
(This time I checked to confirm before posting ?)
There is a different type of keyboard called a “capacitive keyboard”, but you probably don’t have it.
July 31, 2011 6:57 am at 6:57 am #815476HachamMemberForgive my ignorance of microcircuits, but when you click an icon or bookmark on a computer, it triggers some action in the circuit-board?
And according to those that prohibit electricity based on m’saken mana, can it be said the simple act of clicking a icon (opening an application) or clicking a bookmark (leading to a website) might in fact not be m’saken mana (and thus prohibited)?
July 31, 2011 7:09 am at 7:09 am #815477I can only tryMemberHacham-
How does the points you just made in your clarification effect the impressibility of turning on a fluorescent light (either old-fashioned or newer) on Shabbos?
The older fluorescent fixture is more likely to be a problem because of the actual spark generated within the starter than a newer fixture, which has a different type of ignition.
My first post, where I said that “there is no arc” in fluorescent lighting needed:
a) Correction – there is a spark within the starter module of older fixtures which require a starter (most people probably don’t even know what a fluorescent starter is).
b) Clarification – the current running thru any fluorescent bulb is called an arc, although it’s not the type of arc associated with actual sparking such as an arc light or short circuit has, and is therefore not the d’oraisa of aish.
(moderator – sorry about the repeated edits)
July 31, 2011 7:14 am at 7:14 am #815478I can only tryMember…when you click an icon or bookmark on a computer, it triggers some action in the circuit-board?
A circuit is closed, so the computer is made aware that the event has occurred via electric impulses flowing thru wires, printed circuits and microchips.
The action taken is dependent on the hardware, firmware, software and operating system.
And according to those that prohibit electricity based on m’saken mana, can it be said the simple act of clicking a icon (opening an application) or clicking a bookmark (leading to a website) might in fact not be m’saken mana (and thus prohibited)?
I’m not qualified to answer that one. I’ll leave it to people who know halocha better than I do.
July 31, 2011 7:18 am at 7:18 am #815479quark2MemberDaasYachad yes, grama is still assur medarabanan, but there are many nafkeh minos between someone who is mechalal shabbos deoyrayseh or derabanan, and there are also nafkeh minos in regards to the issur.
July 31, 2011 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #815480☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantquark,
Since you agree that it is assur, you should acknowledge that there is no halachic basis to be lenient about texting, and it is purly rationalization to defend texting on Shabbos.
Again I will say that it s addictive behavior, which needs a level of yiras shomayim to overcome which sadly and tragically many of our teens do not possess.
This is yet another compelling reason why teens should not have texting available on their cell phones (FTR, IMO most shouldn’t have cell phones at all).
July 31, 2011 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #815481ChachamParticipantThe reason why a printing press is not kosher for sifrei torah, is because it has the din of chok tuchos. Other problems include that of lishmah and ksidron ( by a sheim hashem). But it is actually a machlokes the shach and the taz about the kashrus of a Megillah made by a printing press. All the achronim pasken that is is assur and look in Mishnas hasofer Perek 28 that says you are mechuyav to put such a megillah in genizah.
On shabbos you are oiver kesivah midoiraysa even without a maaseh kesivah .The poskim do not pasken like that ran
The shitas chazon ish about electricity has no shayachos that it is connected to a house. His shitah can be found in Chazon Ish Orach Chaim Siman 50 ois 9. He says that completing the circut in itself is boneh medoiraysah. It sounds like a big chiddush but when you learn boneh you see it makes a lot of sense. The Minchas yitzchok argues on this chiddussh. For a halachik understanding of the problems with chashmal and the shita of the chazon ish, look in tzitz eliezer 1:20, Sefer Meorei eish 2 vol.(from Reb Shlomo zalman) MInchas Shlomo 1 :11. Rov haposkim agree to the chazon ish and hold that turning on anv electric thing is deoraysah. Reb Shlomo zalman has an arichus about talking into a telephone that is already on if it is assur midrabanan or mideraysah ayin shum Vdok.
About the rabbonims understanding of electricity, look in meorei eish chelek 2 (5770 ed.) perek 13 and MInchas Shlomo 1:9 and 1:10. In both places reb shlomo zalman explains the metzius of the entire inyan before hondling the psak. On the ha’ara on bottom it says that before he began to write about the inyan he spoke to many electricians etc. to understand the metzius completely.
Now about writing on a computer connected to a screen look in Shevet Halevi 6:37 HE says it is assur mideroisah because it is ksav hameskayaim and you need a new peulah to erase. look over there where he assures typing on chol hamoed etc.
July 31, 2011 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #815482ChachamParticipantAbout the inyan of davka ksav ashuris or even other languages. The Mishna Berura in 340, 22 says That lehalacha we do not pasken like the or zarua and ksav in another languege is chayav (brought down like the rama). He brings the rambam in Peirush Hamishnayos that says even two simanim not in any language is chayav. The Biur HAlachah in 306 11 DH Biksav Shelahem and in the Mishna berura over there siif 47 that the or zarua is a daaas yochid and all the rishonim argue and the ikar is like the other rishonim ayin shum barichus.
LMaaseh learning the mechaber over there is very confusing if you do not hold like this rama. because the mechaber in 306 11 says ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????, ????? ????? ??????? and on this the rama says davka if you sign in ksav shelahem which is an issur derabanan which is muttar for yishuv eretz yisrael. on this the aruch hashulchan says really the mechaber is a taus sofer and should say ?? ???? ????: ‘???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????, ????? ???????’, ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????”? ??.
???? ????? ????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ???? ????, ??”? ????”? ???? ?”? ??? ?’, ??? ?????: “?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? – ????” ?”?, ??? ???????? ???? ??. ?????? ???? ??, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????, ??”? ????? ?”?.
And then aruch hashulchan says that the rama should be erased vzeh leshono ????”? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?”?. ????? ??? ?????? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?????????? ?????, ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ??, ??? ??? ???”? ???? ????? ?”? ??”?, ??? ????? ??? ??? ?”?, ?????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???”?, ???? ???? ????? ?”?. ??”? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? – ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ??”? ??, ??? ??? ??”? ???”?
Just to note this aruch hashulchan is one of the three places where he brings down the mishna berurah
July 31, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #815483kylbdnrMemberPeople who text on Shabbos are usually the ones who can’t go anywhere without their phone, in other words they’re addicted. They know it’s wrong so they try rationalizing. Unfortunately, I’m one of those people who can’t go anywhere without my phone. I was only mechalel shabbos once 2 years ago. Many of my friends are regular bais yaakov girls who look just like everyone else and they text on shabbos…it’s sad.
July 31, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #815484yitayningwutParticipantquark2-
I hear what you are saying. Just a few points:
I highly doubt it. If that were the case, our Sifrei Torah would be written using a printing press.
Without getting involved in something highly controversial, I must note that my rav is mattir silk-screened Sifrei Torah l’chatchilah. V’doik.
Ksav sheino miskayam is full %100 ksav, only it will be erased. Ksav made up of many little dots, is, according to some opinions, not ksav at all.
(the practical application is soda cap dates and numbers. I am not saying that you should take on this heter personnaly, but when we are deciding whether or not these people are not considered jewish for many things, and someone even brought up yayin nesech, I think that this should definitely be taken into consideration.)
Who holds this way? Do you have a name? Because I fail to understand this argument. What’s the difference between this and ink which is technically just millions of little molecules. The defining factor is obviously that you see it as on letter so why should typing be better. Regarding opening bottles, I did not know anyone gave that as a reason, I thought it was simply kil’achar yad and psik reisheih d’lo nicha leih. Do you have a source for your reasoning? I am asking for a source because it is a chiddush to me and I would like to see it inside so I may understand the svara better.
As to your other point, truth be told if I was convinced it was muttar and my rav agreed I would not withhold myself from taking it on personally. I am just not convinced. With regard to yayin nesech however, no matter what the halacha is here I believe their wine is muttar gamur – R’ Henkin demonstrates that nowadays a mechalel shabbos’s wine is fine.
I believe that it is the shita of Rishonim that one is only chayav for ksav ashuris. See the Chayei Adam shabbos 37:5 (“rov” poskim etc.)
I will check up the CA but I should say I think the Rambam is the pashtus and I think this is the opinion of most poskim, including the Aruch Hashulchan and the MB as Chacham succintly pointed out.
July 31, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #815485shlishiMemberR’ Henkin demonstrates that nowadays a mechalel shabbos’s wine is fine.
Which R. Henkin? The godol zt”l or the rabbi in Israel with the same name (and descendant)?
July 31, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #815486yitayningwutParticipantChacham-
Harav Shlomo Zalman in Minchas Shlomo (first chelek, don’t have it in front of me, could be the one you quoted) is quite clear that in theory he holds that talking on the telephone is fine. He has other considerations which he mentions there in parentheses which prevent him from openly paskening l’heter.
July 31, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #815487HachamMemberyitayningwut: Your comment implicitly implies that Harav Shlomo Zalman would matir talking on a telephone on Shabbos, but just wouldn’t “openly” pasken so. Whatever “openly” means. Are you sure you meant that?
July 31, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #815488yitayningwutParticipantShlishi-
Without getting involved in politics…
I am refering to Haga’on Harav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin Zatzal. He writes this in his k’savim. His basis is that stam yeinam is assur for two reasons, Avodah Zarah and B’noseihem, and neither reason applies to mechalelei shabbos nowadays.
July 31, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #815489HachamMemberThere is a different type of keyboard called a “capacitive keyboard”, but you probably don’t have it.
I can only try:
IF this type of keyboard — that doesn’t involve circuits when pressed — were used on Shabbos (without typing – just using the arrow keys and <Enter>), what issur (if any) would transpire that would prevent the usage of a computer (that was already on) via this technology on Shabbos?
July 31, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #815490happiestMemberJust to be dan lekaf zechus- maybe these people have emergencies and need to contact someone who can help them through it.
Just this shabbos I was told that I can call a certain person if something came up. He told me that he carries his cell around with him and I should not feel bad at all! So maybe these people also have a heter like I do/did to call/text on shabbos.
July 31, 2011 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #815491aries2756ParticipantHappiest, anyone dealing with life and death situation or crisis situations such as doctors, hatzola and maybe even Rabbonim who deal with suicide patients carry radios, beepers, cellphones etc. That is why you got the answer you received. Other than that people who look for their own loopholes and give themselves excuses are doing just that. They do NOT have a heter to do what they wish. You asked and you received a proper heter.
July 31, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #815492happiestMemberaries, I understand. But maybe some of these people seen texting are speaking to a rabbi/dr/hatzala member. I’m sure not all but it could be…
July 31, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #815493aries2756ParticipantHappiest, Rabbonim and Hatzalo members do not text on Shabbos, They will however answer an emergency call. Kids who are texting are texting to their friends. Kids who are on the computer are on the computer as they are any other day of the week. It is very nice to try to be dan l’kaf z’chus. But on the other hand we have to understand that these kids are hurting inside for some reason and they are turning away from yiddishkeit. They are looking for loopholes to break the rules and ONE aveirah makes it easier to do the next. So when you look for an excuse, loophole, heter to allow them this or explain it away you only make it easier for them to do the next aveirah.
When a girl buys her first “iffy” skirt that exactly cover the knee completely but it is not above the knee. It is really questionable and she allows herself to let it go. If she feels ok in it and wears it then the next time she will buy that type again and maybe even go shorter. She got used to it and the second time will be easier, and the third time she won’t even give it a second thought.
The first time the kids chew treif gum, they are not sure. The second time they still feel a little queasy, the third time they are already sharing it with someone else telling them that gum doesn’t count.
If you catch these kids early enough as they are floundering and testing the waters you can save them from going down that dark journey. If you look at them as lost souls or “bad kids” and give up on them right away, or judge them, or masser on them and cause them all kinds of consequences and predicaments throwing them to the wolves, you are throwing them away like yesterday’s garbage.
The point is that it is wrong to be looking for technicalities and making excuses for why it can be OK. It really is NOT ok. It is NOT Shabbosdik behavior and to try and figure out why it might NOT be assur on Shabbos and therefor might be permitted and they might not be oiver a halacha is just pushing them into more dangerous territories. Well if texting is permitted then the cell phone is general is permitted so I can call my friends on shabbos. And as long as I leave it plugged in it won’t run out of battery so that’s not a problem. And if the computer is not a problem then I can listen to my music through the computer all shabbos, and email, and buy things because I am not exchanging money, my credit card is already on my account, etc., etc, etc. And I get menucha from shopping, etc. Where does it stop?
July 31, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #815494kylbdnrMemberI have a friend who knows that I keep shabbos and texts me anyways. A few weeks ago on motzei shabbat when I checked my phone I saw 3 missed texts and one missed call from Friday night. It was not for an emergency and it hurt me to think that she thought that I would answer back – and this was a regular ashkenaz bais yaakov girl.
aries, I agree with you. The one and only time I texted on shabbat (2 years ago) frightened me – I didn’t tell my parents and they still don’t know. I was afraid I would be punished/yelled at. Instead I told one of my friends who gave me a rabbis number who saved me from doing it again…
July 31, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #815495I can only tryMemberHacham-
IF this type of keyboard — that doesn’t involve circuits when pressed — were used on Shabbos (without typing – just using the arrow keys and <Enter>), what issur (if any) would transpire that would prevent the usage of a computer (that was already on) via this technology on Shabbos?
This is basically a type of touch-screen technology (there are a few types).
This means that the keyboard itself isn’t having circuits closed and opened, but rather the current is increasing and decreasing.
As far as the halachic ramifications of this current altering, I don’t know.
Even if the current fluctuation isn’t as problematic as closing and opening a current, which normal keyboards do, there is still the issue of electronic components that are probably closing and opening circuits, too.
July 31, 2011 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #815496ZeesKiteParticipantkylbdnr
I also do averos (OK, lots of them, lo alenu). However, I don’t publicize them. To do that would be a chilul HaShem. It lessens the severity of that sin in the minds of the listeners.
July 31, 2011 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #815497ChachamParticipantjust a simple question. Who are these mechalelei shabbos texting?
And are they being responded to?
July 31, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #815498ChachamParticipantyitayningwut- I guess i know who your rabbi is. However he is a daas yochid between all the poskim including the shach and taz. Ain kan makom lehaarich bazeh, but I am a sofer and went through this sugya at one point
July 31, 2011 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #815499quark2Memberyitayningwut
I heard the psak about soda caps several years back. I think it was from Rabbi Abadi (who has a large following, but im sure that there are people here that don’t “hold” of him, even though he was appointed by Rav Aharon to be the posek of Lakewood. Anyway you don’t necisserily have to “hold of him” for it to be a limud zechus). I am going to try to ask someone who knows his pesakim better to make sure.
You bring up a good point. How is it different than ink which is made up of tiny molecules as well?
I can think of two sevaros off hand.
1. When you magnify ink, even a billion times, you will see that all the molecules are attached and connected, with no spaces in between. But if you magnify print, you will probably find small gaps and spaces between the dots.
2. It is possible that the end result is the same, but the manner of “ksivah” is different. The printer doesn’t necesserily create the dots in order. For example, for the word “the”. First the printer may put a dot on the bottom of the “e”. Then a dot on the top of the “h”. Then another dot on the bottom of the “t”, etc.
Since it is being written in this “jumbled” manner, where the dots of the letters are being formed out of order, this is not considered ksivah.
But to get the right sevara, it would probably be best to discuss it with the Rav who gave the psak in the first place.
Someone mentioned something about writing on a computer screen, that it is ksav gamur that will later be erased.
That is a very interesting sevara, which can probably have other applications. It gets into the reason behind the din of ksav sheino miskayaim.
But even so, i believe that an image on a computer screen is refreshed hundreds of times a minute, so that may anyway make it ksav sheino miskayaim. Is the Rav who issued that psak aware of this?
(this is definitly the case with the older “fat” screens, and im pretty sure that it is true with the new “thin” screens as well.)
July 31, 2011 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #815500yitayningwutParticipantHacham-
Ayin sham in Minchas Shlomo, that’s all I wish to say.
Chacham-
I accept that.
July 31, 2011 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #815501ChachamParticipant”I believe that it is the shita of Rishonim that one is only chayav for ksav ashuris. See the Chayei Adam shabbos 37:5 (“rov” poskim etc.)”
You make it sound as if the chayei adam brings this down from rov haposkim. However if you look at his words you will see there is no way of using this as a heter for texting. and only bdochek does the chayaei adam say tzorich iyun if you can ask a goy to write in another language ltzoirech mitzvah. ( the rama holds you can be soimech ltzoirech mitzvah while the chayei adam is mesupak)
????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?? ???????
?? ?? ? ???? ??? ?? ? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ? ? . ? ? ?
July 31, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #815502quark2MemberChacham check up on boneh that is not attached to the ground. I’m pretty sure that you will find it to be a machlokos, if my memory serves me correctly.
Even if we don’t pasken like the shitah that holds that boneh is only when attached to the ground, this will probably be considered a sfek sfekah. Machlokes about boneh, and machlokes if completing a circuit is considered boneh at all, or if it is assur for a different reason.
BTW once we are on the topic of electricity, i think that you will find a tshuvah in the end of Achiezer (Rav Chaim Ozer) that strongly implies that the issur is mederabanan.
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