Thanksgiving: Church Holiday

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  • #1146254

    chesedname
    Participant

    this is a good example of what separates a ben torah from a apikoros.

    a ben torah says if that’s what the posuk hador, rav moshe zazal says, that’s what we’ll do, we can try to understand his reasoning, but there is no room for turkey on that day in my house!

    an apikoros says, i don’t see what’s wrong with it, so I’ll eat it, until and unless you convince me not to.

    wouldn’t this be the one thing that’s easy to adhere to? and not spend time looking for heterim? i purposely don’t eat turkey (which i like) to show i listen to gedolim, and proud of it!

    #1146256

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    this is a good example of what separates a ben torah from a apikoros.

    Let me get this straight… to you, someone is an apikorus if they do they do something that they don’t know is forbidden, or if there are other authorities who permit it?

    Oh, right… you’re the one who said I was an apikorus because I don’t have a positive self-image. I’m *still* not sure which one of the ikkarim that violates. Or this, for that matter.

    The Wolf

    #1146257

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    this is a good example of what separates a ben torah from a apikoros.

    a ben torah says if that’s what the posuk hador, rav moshe zazal says, that’s what we’ll do, we can try to understand his reasoning, but there is no room for turkey on that day in my house!

    an apikoros says, i don’t see what’s wrong with it, so I’ll eat it, until and unless you convince me not to.

    wouldn’t this be the one thing that’s easy to adhere to? and not spend time looking for heterim? i purposely don’t eat turkey (which i like) to show i listen to gedolim, and proud of it!

    🙂

    The Shoyte says I don’t see what is right with it, so I won’t eat it.

    The Apikores doesn’t eat it, philosophising about how this turkey’s life is just as important as a human’s.

    The Avaryan says I love Turkey, so I don’t care if it assur.

    A Ben Torah does research, checks the Poskim, delves into the Teshuvos, and decides on his own what the Mehalech is, and then discusses with his Rov or Rebbe.

    The Am HaAretz hears a teshuva on the internet, and decides that is the final word.

    The Poshit Yid asks his Rov, whether that Rov Paskins like Rav Moshe or Rav Solevatchik is of no concern to him/her.

    #1146258

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    G@W,

    What do you call the one who doesn’t like turkey to begin with and therefore doesn’t have the schar of resisting the temptation to have turkey on Thanksgiving? 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1146259

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    What do you call the one who doesn’t like turkey to begin with and therefore doesn’t have the schar of resisting the temptation to have turkey on Thanksgiving? 🙂

    Someone who is missing out on the finer things in life.

    Next thing you will tell me is that you don’t drink wine, and can’t enjoy a good steak.

    What sort of Wolf are you!? 😉 Any wolf I know will grab any turkey it can get.

    #1146260

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “So, as much fun it may be to celebrate, we have to recognize the Church origins of these goyishe celebrations!”

    Ever wonder where the minhag of giving gifts on Chanukah came from?…seems like it came from a church origin holiday to me.

    #1146261

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Every time I see this thread I get hungry for turkey. I saw a recipe for BBQing a whole turkey.

    #1146263

    goodbye
    Member

    Wolf, the Tora says that if you DON’T eat blood (“shenafsho shel odom kotzoh bo”) you gain eternal reward for yourself and your descendants… I’d assume the same rule applies here…

    #1146264

    myfriend
    Member

    Ever wonder where the minhag of giving gifts on Chanukah came from?…seems like it came from a church origin holiday to me.

    It came from Christmas; which is why ehrlich yidden follow Yiddish tradition of giving gelt, and not Christian tradition of gifts.

    #1146265

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, the Tora says that if you DON’T eat blood (“shenafsho shel odom kotzoh bo”) you gain eternal reward for yourself and your descendants… I’d assume the same rule applies here…

    Bad example. Have you ever seen a wolf kasher his kill before eating it? 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1146271

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Chesedname,

    I’ll tell you what… I’d like to bury the hatchet, especially since I conceded to you on the main point on which we were arguing in the other thread (re: cooking on Yom Tov). There’s no point in your being upset over my words when I conceded the point and I doubt you *really* meant it when you called me an apikorus for self-esteem issues anyway.

    So let’s try to bury the hatchet and be civil with each other. If you want to discuss some of our issues in private via email (which, in fact, I would prefer), I authorize the mods to give you the email address that I have registered on these boards (although you could probably find it on your own if you wanted).

    This doesn’t mean we have to agree on everything (or anything), of course. But I’m sure we can disagree with each other respectfully and civilly without resorting to name calling and other insults.

    So, how about it? Bury the hatchet (and not in each other’s necks)?

    The Wolf

    #1146272

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Next thing you will tell me is that you don’t drink wine, and can’t enjoy a good steak.

    While I have never been drunk in my life, I can say that I do enjoy wine and steak. Sorry to disappoint. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1146273

    chesedname
    Participant

    wolf

    that’s very kind of you, and very big.

    i have nothing against “you” i just don’t like ppl posting things against halacha, where due to the vast quantity of readers here, many can come out with the wrong halacha.

    why we don’t we switch from “what’s wrong with it” or “it’s not cooking so it’s fine” as a statement of fact, to a question?

    “we can’t cook for them, but can we make the food beforehand?”

    i think that will make everyone happy, especially being there is nothing wrong with a question.

    on a side note, in the infinite wisdom of the moderators, they deleted posts i had, where there was nothing wrong in it, one of them said clearly you’re not an apikoros because you claim to have self-esteem issues. i said you “would be” (never said you are) an apikoros if you had the attitude of, so i’m a rasha who cares.

    hope this all makes sense, with nothing being capitalized.

    #1146274

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Anyone have a good recipe or method for tasty juicy turkey?

    #1146275

    Homeowner
    Member

    goodbye, if I am at Yankee Stadium (notice that I didn’t say if you are at Yankee Stadium) may I stand during the singing of “God Bless America?” How about singing along as well?

    #1146277

    goodbye
    Member

    Homeowner, ABSOLUTELY! In fact, not only MAY you stand, but actually you SHOULD sing along! As I wrote b4, I am a patriot of the USA, and MAY G-D BLESS AMERICA! AND YET you should never celebrate ANY church holidays!

    #1146278

    minyan gal
    Member

    Goodbye – the point is that Thanksgiving is not a church holiday. It is a secular holiday to give thanks for the freedoms and bounties that you as an American have.

    In Canada, we celebrate Thanksgiving much earlier – the second Monday in October. As that was several weeks ago, I will volunteer to consume a vast quantity of pumpkin pie with a lot of whipping cream – the real stuff, in order to show respect for the holiday of my American neighbors. (I also just used the American spelling of the word which should be spelled “neighbour” in Canada and any other “British” affiliated country). To those of you that will be indulging in a Thanksgiving meal – b’tayavon.

    #1146279

    Yanky55
    Member

    Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University who is frequently referred to simply as “the Rav,” also agreed that Thanksgiving was not a Gentile holiday, and ruled that it was permissible to eat turkey on Thanksgiving.

    “Indeed, there were instances when Rabbi Soloveitchik implied to his students that he and his family celebrated Thanksgiving, although shiur was always held on Thanksgiving,” said Rabbi Hershel Schachter in his intellectual biography of Rabbi Soloveitchik, Nefesh HaRav.

    According to Dr. Avi Feldblum of Highland Park, NJ, on Thanksgiving day, Rabbi Soloveitchik started his shiur at YU much earlier than usual so that he could be finished in time to catch a plane back to his home in Boston to have a festive meal with his family.

    But just because Thanksgiving was sufficiently important for the Rav to start his shiur early, did not mean that he would end it before completing what he wanted to understand. According to Dr. Feldblum, on Thanksgiving 1976, Rabbi Soloveitchik spent about five hours working through one Tosafot. When his aide passed him a note to remind him about his flight back to Boston, the Rav turned to him and said, “No one can leave here until we have understood what it is that Tosafot is saying.”

    #1146280

    Homeowner
    Member

    I am thankful that I live in the United States, a country that has enshrined in its Constitution a First Amendment, guaranteeing everyone the Freedoms of Religion, Speech, Press, Assemby and the Right to Petition the Government.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

    #1146281

    so right
    Member

    I am thankful that I live in the United States, a country that allows us to freely practice Judaism, even at the cost of allowing abusive speech, abusive press, and other abusive behaviors activist judges have falsely allowed in the name of the Constitution.

    Good Thursday afternoon.

    #1146282

    Homeowner
    Member

    so right, when did Chelm get internet service?

    #1146283

    Helpful
    Member

    About the time you moved there.

    #1146284

    Josh31
    Participant

    Chelm had the internet before Al Gore “invented” it for everyone else.

    Based upon this thread Chelm is now in the US, and really should be called New Chelm.

    #1146285

    Helpful
    Member

    Josh: You’d make a wonderful Mayor of that town!

    #1146286

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Professor Broyde surely makes some interesting academic observations on the matter. But for halachic conclusions, we rely on Rabbonim. “

    Professor Broyde is also Rabbi Broyde — a very distinguished member of the Rabbonim and a Dayan on the Beit Din of America.

    “I like turkey. (That’s the only part of this discussion I’m interested in.) “

    That itself is a shilah! We had no mesorah for turkey since it is a bird native to North America.

    #1146287

    charliehall
    Participant

    Those who asur Thanksgiving are probably unaware of the history of Jewish observance of the holiday. The facts are that the small Jewish community in America enthusiastically endorsed the holiday immediately after President Washington’s 1789 proclamation. I have a copy of the order of service in New York (then the capital) at the still existing (and still orthodox) Congregation Shearith Israel on Thursday, November 26, 1789, along with the sermon that was given that day. The service skipped tachanun, and added many additional psalms along with a prayer for the government (in English!). The sermon by Chazzan Gershom Mendes Seixas — a drash on Mizmor L’Todah — was so well received that it was published a few weeks later. That made it, and not any sermon by a Christian, the first Thanksgiving Day sermon published in America! Jews have been celebrating Thanksgiving since 1789; it probably has the status of a local chag.

    Unfortnately the order of service and sermon don’t appear to be online except on my facebook page in a photo album. (I scanned it in; they are in the public domain.)

    #1146288

    charliehall
    Participant

    Complete text of the first Thanksgiving proclamation by President Washington:


    General Thanksgiving

    By the PRESIDENT of the United States Of America

    A PROCLAMATION

    WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requefted me “to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establifh a form of government for their safety and happiness:”

    NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and affign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclufion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed;– for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to eftablish Conftitutions of government for our fafety and happinefs, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;– for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffufing useful knowledge;– and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

    And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgreffions;– to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

    GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand feven hundred and eighty-nine.

    (signed) G. Washington

    #1146289

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Indeed turkeys are a sheilah. I think we don’t really know why we eat them.

    To me, this is an affirmation of mesorah. We eat turkeys because our fathers did and their fathers did, because the rabbonim a few hundred years ago said they could. Even though we find that decision suspect, we abide by it.

    #1146290

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    How Do We Know Turkey Is Kosher? – Was Columbus The First Jew in America?

    The Shulchan Aruch (YD 82:3) gives simanim of a kosher bird, however the Rema argues and says that without a mesora we cannot eat any birds even if it has simanim. The question that many poskim discuss is how can we eat Turkey, which is an American bird that was transported back to Europe after the discovery of America, and cannot possibly have any mesora.

    The Darkei Teshuva (YD 82:26) considers a number of explanations from various poskim. Regarding the fact that there was a mesora in India for Turkey, he says that the Rashba holds that one country cannot rely on another country’s mesora. Another explanation that he brings from the Meishiv Davar is that the Rema banned any bird without a mesora only if it is newly discovered. Since Turkey had been eaten for many years before the question came up, we cannot question our predecessors logic in permitting it, even if they did not have a mesora, and we cannot assur it and spread a bad name on them.

    He also brings the Arugas HaBosem that says that the Rema only forbid birds whose simanim are not 100% guaranteed, but since we have watched Turkeys now for hundred of years and they without a doubt possess all the simanim without exception, we can eat it without a mesora.

    The Sichas Chulin in an admittedly wild theory says that during the time of the exile of the Aseres HaShevatim, some of them ended up in America. They had a Mesora on Turkey and passed it on to the exiles of the Spanish inquisition, who passed it back to Europe.

    Important Note: We try to convey the Tshuva to the best of our ability. We admit that our understanding may not be accurate. Please also understand that this Tshuva may not be the final word on this topic. One should consult a Rav before drawing any conclusions. http://revach.net/article.php?id=1398

    #1146291

    BP Zaideh
    Member

    I have proof that thanksgiving is not a religious holiday

    ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

    A major Chasidish B”HM scheduled a special shiur for this afternoon. Had it been a religious holiday wouldn’t it have the same status as ???? ??? No need to comment. I know that this is totally off the wall, which is not so uncommon in the CR.

    #1146292

    metrodriver
    Member

    Charliehall; On the question if turkey is Muttar, due to lack of Mesorah. There has been a discussion about this subject about 150 Years ago by the most prominent Poskim of that generation. The conclusion was that it is Muttar. Here we are. As far as making a party to celebrate this day specifically. Reb Moshe Feinstein ZTZ”L concludes that it is Assur. But eating turkey on this day in itself is not prohibited by any Posek. Unlike some Junior talmidei Chachamim who misinterpreted the words of R. Moshe.:

    #1146294

    cantoresq
    Member

    Does it not say in Tehilim “Hodu LaHashem ki tov, ki leolam chasdo?” A turkey unto G-d for he (the turkey, not G-d) is good, His (G-d’s not the turkey) kindness is everlasting. How much more proof do we need?

    #1146295

    eclipse
    Member

    you can even eat a “turkeya gedolah” if you cut it into “sh’vorim” and share it.It’s ‘true-ah!”

    #1146296

    Miriam
    Member

    As Jews we should be thankful for everything we have every single day, not just 1 particular day. After all the first thing we do when we open our eyes each morning is thank Hashem with Modei Ani.

    #1146297

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Since Turkey had been eaten for many years before the question came up”

    Actually that is not true; no Jew ever saw a turkey until 1493. The Rema lived from 1520 to 1572.

    “A turkey unto G-d”

    LOL! The “hodu” as applied to the bird comes from India, from where it was mistakenly thought to have originated. (“Hodu” is also the Hebrew word for India, from “Hindu”. You find the word in Megillat Esther.)

    Rabbi Ari Z. Zivotofsky has a nice article on the kashrut issues regarding turkey; it was published in *Journal of Halachah and Contemporary Society* in 1998 and can be found through a quick internet search. As always, CYLOR.

    #1146298

    Homeowner
    Member

    saftala, you said,

    As Jews we should be thankful for everything we have every single day, not just 1 particular day. After all the first thing we do when we open our eyes each morning is thank Hashem with Modei Ani.

    Don’t you say “sheh’hech’eh’yanu?” If, so, why do you say it specifically on Yom Tov and not every single day as well (barring some special reason)?

    #1146299

    homeowner i dont understand the point you are trying to make.

    are you saying we shouldnt be thankful every day?

    are you saying modeh ani is not a daily expression of thanks?

    do you really think the fact that we only say shehechyanu on particular special days as instituted by Chazal that this indicates on other days we do not express our gratitude in many other ways?

    do you have a point or are you just trying to find some fault in saftalas very sweet post?

    #1146300

    “Since Turkey had been eaten for many years before the question came up” Actually that is not true; no Jew ever saw a turkey until 1493. The Rema lived from 1520 to 1572.

    Whoever said that the question of “Tuskey” came to the Rema?

    The issue is whether the turkey ???? comes under the Rema’s guidelines since it was eaten for so many years before someone questioned it.

    #1146301

    Helpful
    Member

    Homeowner, what is the name of the posek who has the final word in your life?

    Does he disagree with Rav Moshe vis-a-vis celebrating Thanksgiving?

    #1146302

    Homeowner
    Member

    Moderator-80, you misunderstood my point. Saftala argued that we are thankful to Hashem every day and therefore no one day is more “special” than another. I pointed out that while indeed we are all thankful every day, on certain days we say more blessings than on other days and on Yom Tov we say a special blessing to Hashem for enabling us to reach that day.

    The “fault” such as you characterize it, is in logic. What I have said is correct as far as Halacha is concerned. I presume we are allowed to disagree as far as logic.

    #1146303

    i see

    thanks for clarifying

    #1146304

    lesschumras
    Participant

    If the premise for RebMoshe’s psak was that Thanksgiving is a church holiday, then the psak is wrong. It is not a church holiday.

    #1146305

    so right
    Member

    That isn’t the basis for Rav Moshe’s psak I believe, but Thanksgiving is a religious holiday nevertheless.

    #1146307

    so right
    Member

    charlie, how long have you been praying in Avi Weiss’ synagogue?

    #1146308

    lesschumras
    Participant

    so right,

    If it so important for you to believe it is, that’s your right. By the way if it is not because he thought it was a religious holiday, what is the difference between Thanksgiving and any holiday legislated by the government?

    #1146309

    lesschumras
    Participant

    As you can see below, Thanksgiving Day has been moved aboutconsiderably, and for different reasons. When Roosevelt proposed moving he date, the Republicans accused him of insulting ABRAHAM LINCOLN, not their deity because the holiday was established by Lincoln, not a church

    1939 to 1941

    Abraham Lincoln’s successors as president followed his example of annually declaring the final Thursday in November to be Thanksgiving. But in 1939, President Franklin D. Roosevelt broke with this tradition.[18] November had five Thursdays that year (instead of the usual four), and Roosevelt declared the fourth Thursday as Thanksgiving rather than the fifth one. Although many popular histories state otherwise, he made clear that his plan was to establish the holiday on the next-to-last Thursday in the month instead of the last one. With the country still in the midst of The Great Depression, Roosevelt thought an earlier Thanksgiving would give merchants a longer period to sell goods before Christmas. Increasing profits and spending during this period, Roosevelt hoped, would help bring the country out of the Depression. At the time, advertising goods for Christmas before Thanksgiving was considered inappropriate. Fred Lazarus, Jr., founder of the Federated Department Stores (later Macy’s), is credited with convincing Roosevelt to push Thanksgiving back a week to expand the shopping season.[19]

    Republicans decried the change, calling it an affront to the memory of Lincoln. People began referring to Nov. 30 as the “Republican Thanksgiving” and Nov. 23 as the “Democratic Thanksgiving” or “Franksgiving”.[20] Regardless of the politics, many localities had made a tradition of celebrating on the last Thursday, and many football teams had a tradition of playing their final games of the season on Thanksgiving; with their schedules set well in advance, they could not change. Since a presidential declaration of Thanksgiving Day was not legally binding, Roosevelt’s change was widely disregarded. Twenty-three states went along with Roosevelt’s recommendation, 22 did not, and some, like Texas, could not decide and took both days as government holidays.

    In 1940 and 1941, years in which November had four Thursdays, Roosevelt declared the third one as Thanksgiving. As in 1939, some states went along with the change while others retained the traditional last-Thursday date.

    1942 to present

    President Truman receiving a Thanksgiving turkey from members of the Poultry and Egg National Board and other representatives of the turkey industry, outside the White House. (November 16, 1949)On October 6, 1941, both houses of the U.S. Congress passed a joint resolution fixing the traditional last-Thursday date for the holiday beginning in 1942. However, in December of that year the Senate passed an amendment to the resolution that split the difference by requiring that Thanksgiving be observed annually on the fourth Thursday of November, which was sometimes the last Thursday and sometimes (less frequently) the next to last.[21] On December 26, 1941 President Roosevelt signed this bill, for the first time making the date of Thanksgiving a matter of federal law.

    #1146310

    minyan gal
    Member

    “Thanksgiving is a religious holiday nevertheless. “

    so right, you are so wrong. Thanksgiving is a national holiday just like Veterans/Remeberance Day. On both holidays, different religious institutions offer special services or prayers during a service. One holiday is to give thanks for the bounty and freedoms that we enjoy and the other thanks those who gave their lives to preserve those freedoms. Both of these occasions apply equally to all citizens – they are totally secular holidays.

    #1146311

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Just out of curiosity:

    For those who hold that Thanksgiving is a religious holiday because the proclamation mentions God, would you also hold that Independence Day is also a religious holiday?

    The Declaration of Independence makes mention of God a few times as well, including in the opening paragraph:

    and in the closing paragraph:

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the Rectitude of our Intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, Free and Independent States; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of the divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

    So, why is Thanksgiving forbidden to celebrate, but Independence Day is okay?

    The Wolf

    #1146312

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Presidents Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, and Veterans Day are all civil American holidays, established to either honor Americans who gave outstanding service to the United States; or, as in the case of Independence Day, to celebrate the independence of the U.S. from Britain.

    Thanksgiving Day was established to specifically give thanks to their god, not just to mention their god in the proclamation.

    #1146313

    ronrsr
    Member

    all turkeys where snoods – the fleshy protuberance that hangs from their beak is called such. Perhaps they really are originally jewish?

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