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@somejewiknow
“I would rather speak about psak and torah instead of, lhavdil, zionism and kook”Rizhyin is Pask and torah not stories. You just lie and dri akup.
Rav Shmuel Auerbach, not a zionist by all accounts , refused the attempt to take out rav kuk’s haskama in me’orei ha’eish by r shlome zalman.
Look at the new edition published just a few years ago.
Rav kuks haskama is first.Because rav’kuks powerful political influence of some 100 years ago ?
.Some Hungarian Rabbanim in their zealousness to preserve yahadut , threw logic and fact based judgement out of the window. They thought that following this greatest of the greatest of Hungarian Jewry , the Hatam Sofer , necessitates to jettison fact based thinking ,rationality and proportionality.
And truth be said , it could very well be a matana from heaven , as our generation after the war, was so diminished in so many ways, that’s exactly what that generation needed. Otherwise they would all drown in the zionist tsunami which flooded every Jewish community.
But now when the zionist ideals are long hollowed out already, it is time to return to the shvil hazahav of logic and facts. Coupled with yir’at shamayim and based on torah.
So taking those rabanim literally will have a not so different result to taking ,lehavdil elef havdalot, every word of this big and fat basar vadam DJT literally ….
.@somejewiknow
We see your MO. Everything had in erorr , everything was a mistake or forgery unless its your sources. Oh and all those that held R Kook in high esteem in their letters, they were just bullied into it. And paskim said in public in front of 100’s of people over and over again like haschlata degulah those are merely “stories” up for interpretation.I think its time you look within and see what a pretzel you are twisting. You passul everyone on the other side and then you create your own rules as to whats valid so that you can say noone who was a gadol or tzadik held of zionsim. Its time to stop the bullying and passuling whoever you disagree with. Deep down you know that the rleigous zionists are not koefrim or apikrosim. Maybe they are misguided and thats fine. But to passul other jews or say that they have no source and are just heretics? Its clearly not true. Stop this bullying and mishagsim.
somejew, I looked up this article, thanks, it seems to be written by a total outsider, zeroing on some inconsistencies in the reports.
Let’s look at a bigger picture: Ohr Sameach was a rav in a large city, Dvinsk that was full of political activities. I’ve read a couple of articles, it seems that Ohr Sameach was generally pro- yishuv eretz yisroel but wary of anti-religious groups involved, still having some sympathy. I’m putting below some quotes. Given where and how he lived, I don’t think his activities and letters would go unnoticed by contemporaries, he was not always outgoing with his positions, but he was not hidden in a desert. In particular, the letter ^ was published in 1922, there are his responses from right after Balfour in 1917-18. He was niftar in 1926, surely an actual forgery would be noticed during his lifetime. The quotes below are from a long article A Light Unto Our Nation: R. Meir Simhah of Dvinsk’s Approach to Nationhood and Zionism in Meshekh Hokhmah By: JONAH STEINMETZ – you would be better off reading the original than my random quotes to understand complexity of Ohr Sameach views.
From the day our holy Torah was given, prophecy has never ceased to command us to settle the land [of Israel]. There is no section in the Torah which bears no mention of the Land of Israel… From the day that Zion and Jerusalem were singled out, David in his praises [i.e., Psalms], Isaiah in his visions, Jeremiah in his rebukes, and Ezekiel in his parables never ceased to stress the commandment of settling the land… So too in the Grace after Meals, we pray for the land and Jerusalem… Indeed, in this century, rays of light have shone through the efforts of activists… but many rabbis have opposed it… However, providence has intervened, and at a conference… it was decreed that the Land of Israel will be [given] to the nation of Israel… [And so,] the command to settle the Land of Israel which is as weighty as all the Torah commandments [combined] has returned to its place. It is [therefore] incumbent upon each person to support, to the extent that he can, the fulfillment of this command. The words of the one who awaits seeing the salvation of Israel, Meir Simhah Kohen Ha-Tor, Vol. 3 (1922)
Eulogy from R. Hayyim Zev Harash
Everyone claimed him as their own. Agudath Israel says he was theirs, the Hasidim say he was theirs, and the “Zionists” say he was theirs. And this is the truth, because he would find positive aspects in every group. And so, he once said to me in conversation… that in every group and in every organization, there are found good aspects and evil aspects… [A] person who stands on the side, a neutral person, is able to truly know and understand the good aspects found even in the lowliest of the groups; and to find the evil aspect which exists even in the finest of the groupsYou asked me… to express my opinion regarding the new movement which came to be in our times… by the name of “Hovevei Zion” are they called..
[F]or one who looks at the history of the Jewish people in exile with open eyes sees that at some times crazy, imaginative people arise from among our nation… and place their trust [in the idea] that the redemption is close in coming. And being that their words are [destructive] and all their acts are [ensnaring], many from the nation of God left the religion and the nation and denied the hope of the future… Behold! How terrifying is the sight of the enthusiastic [people] who go out saying: “This is the way which leads to the ultimate redemption From R. Meir Simhah’s letter to Slucki.
I see also ref to
Meshekh Hokhmah, Bereishit 12:5; Devarim 11:31.
Meshekh Hokhmah, Bereishit 50:24. where he supports oaths
after Balfour, he supported yishuv, but does not join Zionist movement Iggerot R. Hayyim Ozer, vol. 1, pp. 311-12 (no. 289).
see also She’eilot u-Teshuvot Avnei Nezer, Yoreh Deah 454:56“On Friday, November 29, 1947, the United Nations
debated the issue of partitioning the British Mandate
for Palestine into two countries, one Arab and on Jewish.Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz] prayed fervently for partition.
He had no radio in his house, but that Friday he borrowed one
and set it to the news, leaving it on for Shabbos.He waited with such tense anticipation to hear the outcome
of the U. N. [United Nations] vote that he did not come to shalosh seudos.When he heard the U. N.’s decision to establish a Jewish state,
he stood up and recited the blessing HaTov VeHaMeitiv,
Who is good and Who does good.Without losing sight of the anti-religious nature of
the leaders of the yishuv in Eretz Yisrael,
he nevertheless saw the creation of a Jewish state
as an act of Providence and as a cause for rejoicing.At the very least, there would now be one country in the world
whose gates would be open to the thousands of Holocaust survivors
still languishing in Displaced Persons Camps in Germany and Austria.”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 331) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965__________________________________________
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah
and became principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas in year 1921 CE.His career in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas lasted 25 years.
He was known as “the premier architect of Torah in American history.”
He left this world in 1948 CE at the age of 62 years.
__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Please, DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah.Please, DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas,
and taught there for 25 years.Please, DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was known as
“the premier architect of Torah in American history.”?
“In [year]1948 [CE], after the Arabs attacked the newly declared
Jewish state and soldiers were falling on the battlefield,
several Roshei Yeshivah taunted Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz]
for having recited the blessing [HaTov VeHaMeitiv].Reb Shraga Feivel turned to Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
who agreed with him that the U. N. resolution
[to establish a Jewish State in Eretz Yisrael in year 1948 CE]
was indeed worthy of the blessing.”SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 331, footnote 3,
heard from Rabbi Nesanel Quinn) by Yonoson Rosenblum for Artscroll / Mesorah,
year 2001 CE, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
just because he founded Beth Medrash Govoha in Lakewood.PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
just because he worked day and night to save Jews from The Holocaust.PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
just because he wrote Shu”t Mishnas R’ Aharon (responsa).PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
just because he wrote the Mishnas Rabbi Aharon commentary on the Talmud.PLEASE DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Aharon Kotler,
just because produced many highly distinguished talmidim,
including: Rabbi Shlomo Brevda, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann,
Rabbi Moshe Hillel Hirsch, Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky,
Rabbi Shlomo Miller, Rabbi Yechiel Perr,
Rabbi Gedalia Schorr, Rabbi Elya Svei and many others.__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:Please read this quote together with the quote that preceded it.
@ somejew
You wrote: “I would rather speak about psak and torah”
We have been waiting with baited breath, spanning multiple threads, for you to start doing that
@ somejew
You wrote: My opening post was a long explanation of my understanding and open ended question for response about the Torah’s system of psak and halacha. as mentioned, I didn’t see anyone challenge it.
It seems most respondents didn’t see, in what you outlined, the Torah system of psak and halacha
@somejewiknow
The challenge to it is that you have a misconception as tow hat the rules are. of course if you make up your own rules then noone can challange it. But its fixed. Us torah jews know that mesorah and a psak not written in a sefer but said over to 100’s of people is just as strong if not stronger. And that not every issue is halcha . Some are Hashkafa.Again wshen you make your own rigid rules so that only your way is correct then yes you can’t dispute it but your rules are made up and are not al pi torah. Bottom line there is a strong side to say zionsim is the torah way. of cirse not secular zionsim which agudah opposed.
somejew,
I am going back to your OM (opus magnus). You seem to be proving that we need to go over and thoroughly learn Vayoel Moshe because of his godlus. I don’t think it is a bad idea, but I don’t think you have to force people to do that.As many here posted, there are other respectable opinions out there – from those who are now cooperating with Medinah while barely tolerating to those who appreciate Israel’s role in giving homes to those who lost their homes to those who would hang the flag just one day a year to those who have hopes that Medinah will lead to something good in the future to those who think there is redeeming value in the Medinah despite shortcoming to those who were willing to work with Medina lehathila hoping to make it better to those, at the extreme, who think that Medinah can do nothing wrong. You may claim that some of the listed are not of sufficient stature, especially at the extreme, but there were many names posted here that are not disprovable by, for example, their association with other Talmidei Chachamim that you respect.
Thus, if I am not a Satmar, I do not have to rely on Vayoel Moshe if I am already following other mesoras. Same way, I don’t need to know all kavonos of all chassidishe rebbes before davening shacharis. I can rely on Gaon who did not learn those kavonos also. Now, if I were to insist that Vayoel Moshe is incorrect and a wrong shitah and makes a mistake – then I will be obligated to go research each of his heilike arguments one by one. But I am just not interested right now, no offense, but I have other lakunas in my Torah that I need to cover first. I might have done it were I to live in the time he published it. But right now, Medinah exists, it is full of religious Jew, b’h, so there are lots of other issues to deal with, such as whom to vote for in WZO elections. (can you write in Vayoel Moshe?).
Now, you insist that Vayoel Moshe is correct and every other gadol is not. To say that, you need to go and learn original sources of those you think are wrong and review their arguments. Thankfully, people here provided you a lot of references. Let us know which one you are starting with and let’s have a substantive discussion.
@some jew
You seem to exclude one the most greats of klal yisrael .Avnei Nezer end of yoreh de’ah who befeirush states [learn it a few times – otherwise you might miss it] that 3 shavu’ot are not binding halach lemaaseh nowadays.
I cannot see any reason why anyone , and befrat someone whose mesorah is from poskim from Poland should not rely on his shitah.
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