The antizionism amongst religious Jews has no legitimate detractors

@AAQ – No, there aren’t. Because they consider Z and MO to be heresy of the highest level, they’ll never engage seriously.

@somejew
“With the exception of Aviner and Solevetchik, the other names are those who where nifter (I think) before Vayoel Moshe was published” So now it needs to be in a sefer that was written after Vyoel moshe was published? It can’t be someone that addressed the issue before him? As I told you that’s an unfair rule for many reasons. But Ill relist them
1) Satmar didn’t let anyone publish sefarim against them
2) By the time the rebas sefer was published, the questions about zionsim weren’t “lmasa” anymore. Its after the fact. Why would a posek be busy with the theory?
As I noted you make up and twist your own rules. I will note to many look how he refuses to debate me. You know why? because I don’t fall for bullies or people that make up rules to squeeze me. I don’t think anyone else should fall for this fraudseter either. Do not let him builly you and dnmever let him have the last word.

ZIONISM IS AL PI TORAH. Yes its subject to shikul hdas.

Zsk, that is why I am suggesting to discuss rabbis who had first hand respect from other well-known rabbis. U wonder whether some jew would dare addressing r Soloveitchik without the title in the presence of R Moshe.

@somejew
We have mesora and psak from tzadkim period. That’s how yiddishkiet works. We don’t need to answer vyoel Moshe. It’s that simple. I won’t stand for your bullying or making up your own standards.

Zionism is al pi mesora and both sides are Torah. Listen to what tzadkim say or said. (I trust R Moshe Wolfson zl before some bully on YWn) . We need not know why even though we do know!

Both Eim habanim smeicha and vayoel moshe , [bemhila of their illustrious authors] are emotional sefarim.

The emotion of yearning for the geuoula and tsa’ar of tsaratan shel yisrael in the case of the EHS on the one side, and the anger and outrage at hatslahatan shel resha’im [besides the yearning for the g] in the case of VM in the other case, are very recognizable in both sfarim, notwithstanding of their quoting of numerous torah sources.

Their readers should be warned not to ignore these clear overwhelming emotions. They will do so at their own peril.
.
.

somejew, I have no idea what you are asking. I suggested reading up on R Soloveitchik books and see what you think about that. Others suggested other authors. Maybe the disconnect is that you are looking for a one-page disproof of Vayoel Moshe? I don’t think this is fair to anyone including Satmarer Rebbe. If he were an unknown person from St Mary, publishing his interpretation of a gemora, it will be as well known as any CR post. He developed a certain philosophy and raised thousands of students, and that is why his opinion is important. So are other Teachers that we mentioned. So, good read up their writings, try to understand what they are writing about, and then come back and tell us what you think, and we can have a discussion. And, again, onus is on you because you deny validity to whole large group of observant Jews. I am not accusing Satmar Chassidim of kefirah, I do not need to prove anything.

Once full-scale war broke out after the State of Israel declared
its existence on May 14, 1948 [CE] Reb Shraga Feivel’s [Mendlowitz]
thoughts were never far from Eretz Yisrael.

A group of students saw him outside the Mesivta building one day,
talking excitedly with Rabbi Gedaliah Schorr and
gesticulating rapidly with the newspaper held in his hand.

“If I were your age,” he [Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz]
told the students, “I would take a gun and go to Eretz Yisrael.”

SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
the architect of Torah in America (chapter 26, page 338) by Yonoson Rosenblum
for Artscroll / Mesorah, year 2001 CE, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965
__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT:

Please, DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was the founder of Torah U’Mesorah.

Please, DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was principal of Yeshiva Torah Vodaas,
and taught there for 25 years.

Please, DO NOT LISTEN to Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
just because he was known as
“the premier architect of Torah in American history.”

One more fallacy with @somejew argument.
So we know that there are sefarim out there that answer the basic arguments such as sholsh shavous.
But then after most of those authors were nifter vyoel Moshe came, and refuted the prior authors answers on the 3 shavous . And so his flawed argument is why didn’t anyone come after the Reba and answer that up ? You can’t ask why it wasn’t addressed before the Reba came along because nobody was a prophet and they didn’t know the Reba arguments to address it. They knew the basic anti Zionist argument but not the Reba argument on their response. And so the question is why didn’t anyone refute the Reba after he wrote his Sefer? Well by then the question of Zionism was basically not relevant any more.

Mr somejew is a good pretzel maker but the whole premise of the argument is flawed.

Of course it’s also flawed because you don’t need to write a sefer or defend hashkafa. If a tzadik says or displays open public support in a way that’s not subject for interpretation that’s a psak and mesora

somejewiknow > There is wide space between “go learn and figure it out on your own” and “you expect a one-page proof?”.

Here a couple of small books by/based on Rav Soloveitchik
The Return to Zion. Addresses on Religious Zionism and American Orthodoxy, 2021 – in Yiddish or English
Community, Covenant And Commitment: Selected Letters And Communications, 2021

somejew to yb:
you wrote:

You seem such an enthusiastic proponent of the ‘zionism is necessarily kfira’ approach , that it should be easy for you to formulate in a few short sentences why this is necessarily so .

the longest part of a conversation is defining what means Zionism. I have a specific definition in mind that was novel in the late 19th century and is still alive an well by all self-proclaimed zionists, showing Zionist ideology alive and well today, R”L.

I can offer my definition or you can start with yours. Once we have that anchor, I can answer your question as to why Judaism rejects Zionism as heresy.
——————-

yb to somejew :

No problem.
There we go :

Zionism is – support for a homeland for Jews in order to better their lot.

Who ever even heard of this Leybel guy, who doesn’t know what he’s talking about, as demonstrated in the above interview he gave with that irreligious media outlet.

To me, the big mystery is why people are responding to Hakatan et al. The bottom line is most religious Jews never regarded the Satmer Rav as a gadol, let alone THE Gadol and don’t ascribe any particular importance to his sforim. They are entitled to their beliefs and should live and be well

chaim> Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach: “In the time of Rabbi Kook, the majority of Torah giants were ‘all as if nothing’ compared to him.

Here is second-hand info, but still interesting and going beyond nice statements that can be made just out of politeness or political necessity:
from R Lichtenstein’s hesped for R Auerbach:
Someone once told me that Rabbi Shlomo Zalman served as honorary president of the Jerusalem Institute. They once wanted to add a certain distinguished figure to the board, but he vetoed it. Why? Because he heard that this person referred to Rabbi Kook simply as “Kook,” without honor. A person who spoke like that could not serve. He would not yield until the rumor was proven false.

After hearing a well-known Rabbi give a fiery derashah
against the secular Jews in Eretz Yisrael, Reb Shraga Feivel [Mendlowitz]
expressed his displeasure with the tone of the speech.

“True, is it hard for us to reach the ahavas Yisrael of Reb Yitzchak Levi of Berditchev,”
he said, “but we are commanded to keep far away from hatred of our fellow Jews.”

SOURCE: Reb Shraga Feivel: the life and times of
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz, the architect of Torah in America
(chapter 16, page 229) by Yonoson Rosenblum for Artscroll / Mesorah,
year 2001 CE, based on Aharon Sorasky’s Shelucha DeRachmana,
ISBNs: 157819797X, 9781578197972, 1578197961, 9781578197965

I see a lot of appeal to authority about zionism. Does anyone have their _own_ oppinion or what they think. We can argue what someone said from today till tommarow we will never fully know their intentions anybody have their own oppion

Rescue: It is entirely muttar to use your brain and to have non-hateful emotions in your heart. (Referring to the colloquial you, not Rescue per se.) Unfortunately too many don’t.
That said, my two cents on the existence of Zionism, which I haven’t heard anyone else say, so an original thought even if other people also have the same original thought:
The secularism and assimilated lifestyles of Herzl’s crowd only proves their point; you are a Jew, always will be, can and will never have the world see you as a non-Jew. As such, don’t rely on them for favors. His initial consideration of a mass conversion to Christianity was dead on arrival both because Jews won’t convert and because it wouldn’t stop any persecution. Which he realized pretty quickly when reporting on the Dreifus Affair, leading him to abandon that idea (chronology is key; its understanding is missing from too many here!)
Herzl’s project was visionary. That doesn’t mean Herzl was a prophet (love the strawmanning!), just that he saw cause, effect, and proposed change that forever altered Jewish history.

Chiefshmerel. Interesting thank you for your two cents. It’s enlightening

ujm > Herzl and Zionism were just as okay to have Uganda

just can’t make you happy. When Zs push for everyone to go to EY – shvuos, idol worship .. when Herzl suggested Uganda – you are not happy again. And his idea was rejected. I think this only proves that he tried his best to save Jews, despite his limited knowledge. And, again, explain to me why so many learned people did not see the dangers that he saw, and acted upon.

Zionists gave klal yisroel is real, so sometimes bad things are good things. Just depends how you look at it.
Not saying I agree with them but Israel wouldn’t exist without zionism. Nor would klal yisroel living in the holy land.
You need both sides of the coin. The ones willing to fight for the land and the religious people. You can’t have both.

somejew: You can’t claim that Uganda shows what Zionism really is. Like most movements, there are many different groups within it. Would you say that Chabad shows what Chassidus is, and argue that point to a Satmar chossid?
Secular Zionism is something we agree on – it is definitely not kosher! But to a religious Zionist, Uganda definitely wasn’t an option. To us, it’s Eretz Yisrael or nothing. Please don’t equate secular Zionism with religious Zionism.

Zionism was the tool God used to get us into the land of Israel. That’s what I’m saying. There’s a lot of examples of things that look bad but ending being a tool for good.
Not sure how you jumped to the holocaust that’s just pure dramatization and lunacy. I would never say that about the holocaust. Thank you