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But is it even legal to operate a bus route without a franchise? (Like operating a taxi without a medallion.)
My understanding (and I could be wrong here) is that you are conflating a franchise with a license.
The bus route in question is a franchise because it is being run within the MTA system (it’s labeled as “B-110”, it is marked on MTA bus maps, the MTA provides signage, etc.).
You can operate your own bus line (assuming that you have all the proper licenses, etc.) without being a franchise of the MTA, but your line won’t be listed on MTA maps/websites, they won’t provide signs at the bus stops, etc.)
The Wolf
The MTA has a Government Monopoly on transit routes within NYC. The various long distance operators (Monsey, Monroe, Lakewood) have licenses to pick up passengers but they cannot take passengers from Brooklyn to Manhattan because they lack franchises.
Zahavasdad,
That is correct. You do need a license to run a line. You don’t, however, have to be a franchise of the MTA (as this line is). That was the distinction I was making.
The Wolf
The franchise isn’t with the MTA, it’s with the NYCDOT. It’s also not within the MTA system in any real sense I can number my bus whatever I want, and bus signs do list non-DOT licensed busses, around the Port Authority in Manhattan there are lots of signs for private busses to New Jersey.
The bus number (B110) is on the MTA signs next to the MTA bus numbers (i.e. B11). I don’t think any carrier can just have their number put unto the MTA signs.
mosheemes2 -Doesn’t matter, it’s still a franchise. If they were doing it to a totally private company, I’d agree. Why must you and the others like you always be right?
If you and the other Kanoyim keep fighting this, you will lose and it will be bad for the Yidden whom ride this line.
You have two choices either sit non-segregated or the company becomes totally private. If you fight it, you will lose anyway in Court and you will still end up with the same choices.
So you’ll ask -“So what do you have to lose?”
Simple, the company is going to pass on their court costs to their ridership. These costs aren’t peanuts!
I believe the signs are also managed by the NYCDOT, but either way, they (DOT or the MTA) are the ones who decide what goes up and what doesn’t. I’m fairly certain that’s not what the franchise is for. The same thing goes with the numbers. What the franchise does is allows the bus company to pick up and drop off passengers on city streets. Doing that makes them different from Monsey Trails and at this point every other bus company in the city.
I’m most certainly not a kanoi and I honestly don’t care one way or the other. I just think the issue here is being misrepresented. As far as I know, you can’t fully privatize a bus route in the city.
Health I think you should stay off the Boro Park / Williamsburg bus and just leave it for those who are NOT intimidated with seperate seating.If it’s not legal, we will find out. Then there is always the option of closing and opening a private bus co. The demand for a separate seating bus is definitely there , whether you like it or not. If this proves to be illegal, I’m sure someone else will open up a private one immediately. Whether we who use the bus are satisfied with the service, is totally irrelevent.
a mamin -You might be willing to pay higher prices to cover the Court costs, in order to prove how Frum you are. But who says your fellow riders feel the same? How about being Chass Al Mohmone Yisroel?
Also where did you get the idea that I’m intimidated & don’t like separate seating?
The Willy bus is better than the Monsey bus, because with the Mechiza anybody thinks they can bump into anybody else and it’s Ok!
why are you guys fighting about this. if you dont like the idea then dont go on the bus. if they are doing something wrong, why do you guys care?
We SHOULD care – we’re all Jews and this is making quite a chillul Hashem.
For the record, (in my opinion) the idea itself is not so terrible. It’s the way they set about doing it that is.
Health: I personally can’t stand that bus, I think the service is terrible. I also feel I have supported them plenty! That being said, I do feel there is a need for this bus, but it’s your choice to take it or not. My son has used the train on many occassions, I personally would not.If I need to travel there I either take a car or that bus and I appreciate seperate seating. the seating on the Monsey bus is horrendous, I have also witnessed the bumping first hand! That’s why I appreciate going with our own car.
Zehavasdad: It’s a pity you feel this is a chillul Hashem, I disagree with you, there are alot WORSE chillul Hashem going on out there in our community!
It’s a Kiddush Hashem that the seating is separate. KH and CH don’t depend on the perception of goyim. It depends on the perception of Hashem.
a mamin: The existence of worse chillul Hashem does not negate this one. Plus, it’s getting media coverage.
shein: Where did you get THAT definition from?
Look up what constitutes a KH or CH. It isn’t what gentiles perceive. It is what would make Hashem happier, not what would make goyim happier. The Rabbonim instituted the seperation. So clearly this is a Kiddush Hashem to follow the Rabbonim’s determination of what is best for members of Klal Yisroel and thus what Hashem wants.
shein: I’m asking you for a source.
The Rabbonim instituted the seperation. So clearly this is a Kiddush Hashem to follow the Rabbonim’s determination of what is best for members of Klal Yisroel and thus what Hashem wants.
But is it a Kiddush Hashem or Chillul Hashem to coerce those who aren’t following those Rabbonim?
Shein: What makes you think that Hashem wants men and women on separate areas of a bus?
Sam: Because the Rabbonim said so.
Bezalel: No one is coerced. They don’t have to take the bus. They could take a different bus or train or drive or car service. And it is no more “coercion” than being forced to use the non-handicapped seating. Or being “coerced” to only use the men’s room. Additionally, its either segregated or not. If the Rabbonim or Poskim of the owners determined it is to be segregated, that’s the way it was setup.
shein: Which Rabbonim? I believe Sam2 (I’m taking him on faith here) quoted some very reliable sources that do not hold with that.
And as for coercion – this has already been discussed extensively on this thread. What they are doing is illegal. Saying “so don’t take the bus” just doesn’t cut it – they have a RIGHT to ride that bus, and you DON’T have a right to make them do anything.
Again, let me say that I am not against separate seating. However, if you are going to break the law to enforce it, that creates a big chillul Hashem. And there is no clear evidence that suggests that that is warranted.
OOM: There indeed might be some Rabbonim that don’t hold of it. But the Rabbonim of the owners hold of it. And that’s who they go by. End of story.
Here’s an interesting quote from the NYCDOT website
The Division of Franchises, Concessions and Consents grants permission to applicants to occupy or use space on, over or under the City streets and sidewalks, charging fees for these uses.
A franchise is a contract between a company and the City. The company provides a public service. Examples are certain private bus routes and conduits for gas and electric utilities.
Franchises generally require legislative authority and are granted for a limited term of years following a public bidding process.
Concessions may be granted to do business on City property. Examples include food courts on public plazas. Concessions are granted for a fixed number of years following a public bidding process.
Revocable Consents may be granted to permit the use of public space for private purposes. Examples include accessibility ramps adjacent to private property, as well as steam pipes and telecommunication conduits underground. Revocable consents are granted for a limited number of years after a formal review process.
Note that certain private bus routes provide a public service.
shein: There may be some Rabbonim who DO hold by it. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I don’t think you can invoke “because Hashem said so” in their name.
And the owners are absolutely irrelevant as per this specific discussion.
a mamin -“I also feel I have supported them plenty! That being said, I do feel there is a need for this bus, but it’s your choice to take it or not.”
You’ve seem to have missed the point. The issue isn’t money, nor the need of a bus between Willy & BP. This bus line is operating under a Gov. franchise. This means they get to write the rules, not you. You can’t just tell any Goyta if they don’t like being in the back of the bus -take another line or subway or taxi.
If the Harri Krishnas operated a bus line in Manhattan & required e/o to put on their silly robes (I’m not going to even say make e/o get a mohawk), acc. to you they would be able to claim religious exemption?!? If you found that your trip to where ever was easier by using this bus line – you would be happy if the Gov. said you can’t do that. You definitely wouldn’t be screaming religious exemption. You definitely wouldn’t like to be told -get there by some other way if you don’t like these conditions.
Everytime the Gov. does something e/o screams antisemitism, once in awhile it is, most of the time it’s not. Stop with the crying wolf. Don’t make a Chillul Hashem by dragging this into Court – where you will lose anyway and you’ll make it open hunting season on Frum Jews. This is a problem living amongst so many Frum Jews -you forget that we are in Golus and there is a way to behave in Golus. So I’ll repeat -the only choices you have is to either sit non-segregated or open a totally private bus service between Willy & BP!
OOM: The Rabbonim decree what they determine is the will of Hashem.
OOM: The Rabbonim decree what they determine is the will of Hashem.
So, is it the will of HaShem that we support the State of Israel? Because there are Rabbonim who say we should do that. Or is it the will of HaShem that we actively try to sabotage it, because there are Rabbonim who say to do that as well.
Is it the will of HaShem to work for a living? Because there are Rabbonim who say that. Or is the will of HaShem that everyone should sit in Beis Midrash all day? Because there are rabbonim who say that as well.
… and on and on…
The Wolf
Health: All true – I’d just like to add something. The PROBLEM is that no one is screaming “religious exemption” – they are just quietly breaking the law. Maybe they would get a religious exemption if they applied for one. Kol hakavod if they did.
Wolf: You just follow your Rov. And the bus operators will follow their Rov.
shein: HASHEM decrees that what the Rabbonim determine is the will of Hashem. And a lone authority does not qualify as the consensus of the Rabbonim. You have yet to identify this authority, by the way.
And how does the fact that the owners of the bus go with this authority make him the arbiter of the will of Hashem any more than any other Rav?
L’tachlis, though, arguing about Hashem’s will is irrelevant to this thread. There is no way you can unilaterally assert that Hashem wills us to enforce separate seating on public transportation. And that is the matziv.
Wolf: Well done. As always.
Everyone just keeps repeating themselves here. I am not a lawyer and dont pretend to know the laws involved here. What I am saying is there is a need to have a bus with seperate seating for this route. There are various bus routes along the tristate area which have seperate seating. If they have to privatize I’m sure they will.
I think the bus is great even if I dont go to willi often, I use it locally very often for only $1! Its a great price and usually a pleasant ride.
I don’r know why so many posters who claim not even to live in the NY area have such important opinions on this thread topic.
Everyone just keeps repeating themselves here. I am not a lawyer and dont pretend to know the laws involved here. What I am saying is there is a need to have a bus with seperate seating for this route. There are various bus routes along the tristate area which have seperate seating. If they have to privatize I’m sure they will.
Well said.
Well, check the news this morning. Now let’s see what the passengers will have to say about this? I’m sure they will continue sitting seperate…
The passengers will keep enforcing the rule even if the bus company and driver do not. It would be dangerous for the bus driver to get involved while driving a bus on the road. And the bus company isn’t responsible for the passengers enforcement.
As one who has usually worked in the regular world. I am frequently asked questions about jewish life especially when stuff his the news.
How is it “Kiddush Hashem” when a African American co-worker asked me How come you jews send your women to the back of the bus just like in the Jim Crow South?
I’d say that depends on if we are being chauvinistic, or following our ideals.
How is it a kiddush Hashem when a lefty lunatic asks me “How come you jews mutilate your eight day old babies?”
shein -“The passengers will keep enforcing the rule even if the bus company and driver do not. It would be dangerous for the bus driver to get involved while driving a bus on the road. And the bus company isn’t responsible for the passengers enforcement.”
They are most certainly responsible. If a Goyta gets on -they can ask her politely. She can refuse. If they try to push the issue -the driver must come to her defense. If he feels he can’t handle it or doesn’t want to -he must call the police. As matter of fact, after this has made the news, a lot of Goyim will B’dafka use this line to sit where ever they want. If now the bus company ignores the fight – they will be in even bigger trouble than before, because the Gov. has warned them.
The bus driver is driving. And a multi-ton bus. It is dangerous for him to get involved in conversations between passengers. A bus driver is not liable for their conversations.
Zehavasdad: Any local knows that they charge $1.00 for a local trip, that means within Boro Park.
The bus driver is driving. And a multi-ton bus. It is dangerous for him to get involved in conversations between passengers. A bus driver is not liable for their conversations.
I agree. However, if there is physical force implied or applied, the driver is responsible to pull over and call the cops, and be a witness when the offender is thrown in jail.
I really don’t see the issue in most cases anyway. Who goes from Will to Boro Park except Frum Yidden?
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