The black hat.
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- This topic has 53 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 9 months ago by n0mesorah.
July 14, 2020 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1882287LostsparkParticipant
I’m an OOT ger in a MO/ChaBaD tzibur and I feel it is a major Kavod HaShem to wear a black hat during davening and Shabbos.
I’m afraid to bring this as a shielah to my Rabbi as I feel like it’s a huge statement to wear a black hat with no yeshivish background.
Thank you for your time.July 15, 2020 2:59 am at 2:59 am #1882338
if you are trying to identify with a certain community (i;e the yeshivish one) and you think youre ready for it, put on a black hat after you ask your rav. if youre not ready for it, or if youre unsure, then you should also ask your rav. a black hat to a lot of gerim and bts (at least in my experience) is a major form of identification with a certain hashkafa. i highly recommend speaking to your rabbi before making a decisionJuly 15, 2020 2:59 am at 2:59 am #18823371Participant
It’s halacha to wear a hat during davening. Don’t feel ashamed. If anyone mocks you It’s because they are jealous.July 15, 2020 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1882343Sam KleinParticipant
Why do they charge so much for these black hats? Making it unaffordable for many people. You can get a black hat that looks exactly like it until your right in front of the person for as low as $10 to $20 in a large clothing store like Burlington coat factory.July 15, 2020 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1882356
you realllly cant. if you go to the hat box or to a non borsalino store you can get a good quality hat for a decent price. borsalinos are extremely expensive both because of the name and the quality. these hats are expensive because of the material theyre made of and the quality of the make (as well as supply and demand)
these $20 hats dont look like a regular black hatJuly 15, 2020 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1882360hujuParticipant
To Sam Klein, who asks: “Why do they charge so much for these black hats?” The answer is, because they can. The trickier question is, Why do people of modest means pay so much for these black hats?
An interesting question is the history of the black hat over the last 100 years. Look at wedding photos from 50 years ago and you will see much smaller hats. Evidently, fashion infects even pious Halachic from clothing. Would anyone draw criticism for wearing a black hat of the prevailing size 50 years ago? Not where I daven, but maybe where my adult children daven.
And if fashion can affect frum clothing, why can’t comfort or common sense? I am the only davener who wears a white hat in the summer months.July 15, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1882369akupermaParticipant
Hats are a matter of style, not halacha. The halacha is to dress nicely for Shabbos. What defines Shabbos-dik is dependent on place and time, and is always relative. BTW, that is always true about clothing.
A dark conventional suit, with a fedora, will mark you as someone who wants to be seen as a scholar or even a fanatic if you wear it in a shul where everyone else has no jacket, wears a white shirt without a tie, and a kippah srugah. The very same outfit worn to a shul where the norm is a “long” suit (beckishe, kapote, etc.), and where formal hats (including homburgs, steimels, etc.) are the norm, will indicate that you want to be seen a “modern” person familiar with the ways of the outside world.July 15, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1882371takahmamashParticipant
“It’s halacha to wear a hat during davening.”
Incorrect.July 15, 2020 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1882396besalelParticipant
Sam klein: black hats can be made of felt or wool. Within felt there is beaver felt, rabbit and for the truly discerning, mink. A good rabbit fur felt costs at least 100, probably closer to 150. A good beaver is twice that and a good mink is twice that. If you want a brand name, expect to pay for it, like everything else.
The difference between one type and the other type is pretty visible to the naked eye and after six months the wool felt will not look anywhere near as nice as a fur felt. A beaver felt will look new for 25 years.
the best prices and selection are at stores that cater to the jewish markets because the consumer is usually a lot more knowledgeable.
A secret of mine: if you really know the hat market, buy on ebay. even second hand. huge savings.July 15, 2020 11:31 am at 11:31 am #1882419WolfishMusingsParticipant
If you want to wear a hat, wear one. Don’t worry about what other people will think.
The WolfJuly 15, 2020 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1882454
See also Baer Hetev O’CH 183,11 when it comes to benching.July 15, 2020 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #1882453
See MB O’CH 8,4 and 91,12.July 15, 2020 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1882474
Hashem kavayochel wears a hat as we say chovash kova yeshuah berosho. Also misatef HKBH keshliach tzibur.
The Shaar Ephraim says to wear a hat when being olah laTorah.July 15, 2020 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1882492
Wearing a hat is not Halacha. We hold onto it strongly, which requires us to continue because of minhag/neder. Two differences. If for whatever unfortunate reason it would stop,there is no requirement to continue. And, there is no imperative to coax it on the less or newly observant.
When I hung round BMG, I was shocked to see bachurim davening there with no hat or jacket. I do not think it is like that anymore. It seems like the hat and jacket idea regained strength in the yeshivos.July 15, 2020 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1882493
Traditional black hats are hand made. The market it for it has shrunk considerably. As a more sentimental item, it is still being produced at a higher cost.July 15, 2020 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1882496
You have two strong feelings that coincide. It seems that you would be just about the only one wearing a black hat. The impact of wearing the only black hat, will be more noticeable (And hence more of a statement.) than wearing one for davening. If there are times that you unable to join a minyan, you can wear one then. If you always daven with a minyan, you can still get one and wear it for Bircas Hamozon. Then you could decide, or ask your Rabbi what to do next.July 15, 2020 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1882560LostsparkParticipant
There are a few yeshivish men at the MO shul I attend, then a few other ChaBaDniks who do so as well. I just don’t want to appear as a Baal Gavaah, or worse. Is there an unspoken benchmark for when a gever can or can wear a hat? Keeping my gerus in mind may I begin and hold this minhag for my family mesorah?
I was thinking about getting a bellissimo hat, the lower profile rim of the “fox” looks really sharp.
When I ask my Rav what he thinks I’ll reply on this thread. Everyone stay safe. ב״הJuly 15, 2020 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1882597benignumanParticipant
The Mishna Berurah is specifically talking about in his times where people did not go out in the street or meet with respectable people without a hat on. ובזמנינו צריך להשים בעת התפלה כובע בראשו כדרך שהולך ברחוב ולא בכובע הקטן שתחת הכובע כי אין דרך לעמוד כן לפני אנשים חשובים
Nowadays (and in the times of the Shulchan Aruch) it is not the norm to wear a hat in the street or when meeting with prominent people. Therefore, a hat is not required by davening. A kippah is sufficient.
If you are a person that is already yeshivish enough to have the custom to wear a hat in the street and when meeting choshuve people, then you have to wear it by davening too. But I doubt someone wearing a black hat in the street is asking whether they should also wear it by davening.July 15, 2020 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1882594mesivta aliyahParticipant
a ger who knows style pshh wowJuly 15, 2020 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1882605
We can demonstrate wearing a hat with a mashel from the Dubner Magid. A king took in a young man and provided for him all his needs. The king had a favorite robe that he enjoyed wearing. Once they look around and both the young man and robe are missing. They find him hiding in a pit wearing the king’s favorite robe.
He says, I am hiding because after all the king has done for me, I am ashamed to show my face stealing the king’s robe. We want to cover our face being ashamed infront of Hashem for denying His good provided to us by stealing it from Him using it for the wrong purpose. This is the MB above O’CH 8,4 covering our face with a talis or a hat.July 15, 2020 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1882624
The above mashel is on mimaakim korosicha Hashem, Hashem I call you from the depths.July 15, 2020 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1882622SchnitzelBigotParticipant
Why is this even a thread? Our president just changed his hair color from orange to grey and this is what you’re talkong about???!!July 16, 2020 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1882736hujuParticipant
To Schnitzel Big: The president did not change his hair color, he changed his dye. He is a lie from head to toe.July 16, 2020 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1882884
What do those that do wear a hat think about those who do? If they would feel betrayed, than there is a communal issue here. This type of issue seems to fester in all Jewish communities today. And is very difficult to bring into the light, and was never examined thoroughly.
There is no range or benchmark when to wear a hat. It is a personal choice. I see that a lot of fathers who took of their traditional garb put it back on when they have their boys going to shul with them. (Boys old enough to daven. Even on late Friday nights.)
If you feel that all your children will settle in the major Jewish centers of the northeast (or it’s satellites) than it is useful to assume it for them. But if you see your family as being more diverse (like mine) then a minhag that is in conflict with the family structure and setting seems unwise.July 17, 2020 9:29 am at 9:29 am #1883112
what conflict with a family structure? what are you going on about? the only question is if hes personally ready to start identifying with the yeshivishe world. a lot of kiruv rabbis tell people to wait to put on a hat because of this reason, not because of ostracizing other people or conflicting minhagim or whatever, its a question of focusing on externals too fast which might not be a healthy thing. he very clearly wants to wear a hat because he himself wants to. im not sure what your point was in that post, because newsflash: a lot of people start wearing htas because they simply want to identify with that group. this isnt a very hard concept. a hat. is. an. identification.July 17, 2020 10:27 am at 10:27 am #1883138
but these are side points really and dont particularly matter (sorry if i came off a bit strong in my previous post)
the only thing that really matters is that he should ask his rav and thats really all it comes down to, as he is probably much more qualified and experienced in answering questions like these than most people here. added bonus that he actually knows the guy lolJuly 17, 2020 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1883186
The conflict would be, if some kids would join a no hat community, and some kids would be in say, Lakewood. His descendants would have to contend with that they took of their hat, which was the family minhag. But if he does not put it on, they hat wearers would say, Abba always wanted to wear a hat. He couldn’t because we grew up in …..
My point was to answer the questions in his posts. Nothing else. There is an ongoing thread about clothing.July 19, 2020 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1883672rationalParticipant
“I feel it is a major Kavod HaShem to wear a black hat during davening and Shabbos.”
Then wear it. You need not ask anyone. If it bothers anyone, it’s their problem, not yours.August 11, 2020 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1891271achmad_the_arabParticipant
Sam Klein- I dont know why they charge so much for a black hat, but lemaaiseh they do, and it is what it is. But I do want to tell you that as much as it hurts and is ridiculous, the truth of it is that if you but a $20 hat from Burlington and wear it in an intown place or yeshiva, people will judge you and call you a harry.August 12, 2020 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1891427RedlegParticipant
Just remember that what’s on your head isn’t important. it’s what’s IN your head that counts.August 12, 2020 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1891448GadolhadorahParticipant
Sam: If you approach the Ebeshter with your supplications wearing the cheapest hat you can find (versus the best you can afford) , don’t be surprised if he shows the same frugality in how he responds to your teffilos.August 12, 2020 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1891513Sam KleinParticipant
Hashem wants your inside from your heart tefillos not your cover outside clothing that’s all fake and hardly counts or makes a difference percentage wise in the eyes of HashemAugust 12, 2020 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1891526MaivinParticipant
That is complete nonsense, of course it makes a diff. what you are or aren’t wearing.
why don’t you go to shul with khaki shorts?!
There is something called kavod. Now what makes something a kavod to where, is how the chachamim of our dor dress (and how they dont dress).
that’s it, no crazy aeronautical science.
וכמבואר בר”מ הלכות ת”ת פ”א עיי”שAugust 12, 2020 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1891542
The Shar Ephraim says to wear a hat for being olah to leining. The MB O’CH 91,12 says to wear a hat for davening as there was a custom to care for ones apperance such that people could look up and learn from the behavior of a talmid chacham. It is mentiioned in MB O’CH 8,4 says that davening with talis on the head brings to kavonoh, yiroh and hachnoah as the mashel above. Look at the Rambam Hilchas Yesodei Hatorah (5,11) how a talmid chacham must live up to the expectations otherwise it might be a chilul Hashem.August 12, 2020 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1891619GadolhadorahParticipant
Sam: Sorry to disagree but appearances DO matter when davening or engaging in any mitzvah. Its not how much you spend but doing the best you can within you means. Hidur mitzvah does not mean spending hundreds of dollars on an esrog if that means you don’t feed your family for yom tov but it also doesn’t mean showing up in shul with arba minim hoping the Ebeshter doesn’t notice you’ve been frugal and substituted a lemon for an esrog. While 90+ percent of yidden show up in shul dressed respectfully, I’m still amazed at the few who don’t seem able to put on a clean and well fitting pair of pants, jacket and hat that is in accordance with their hashkafah.August 13, 2020 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1891902
“any mitzvah” This explains why people do not give tzedakah on their way into shul. They have to put on their hat and wash their hands first.August 13, 2020 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1891904
“what makes something a kavod to where, is how the chachamim of our dor dress”
Not sure what you meant. Anyway I read it, it is not true. And the Rambam makes no mention of it there.
If you meant the Rambam quoted by the next poster, it has nothing to do with how he dresses.August 13, 2020 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1891909
” in accordance with their hashkafah.”
Well, I could go meet the mayor or got to a wedding in rags.August 13, 2020 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1891923
As your name indicates Nomesorah your are defending this type of behavior which is not followed by mesorah.
Aa the Chasam Sofer explains this week vesartem min haderech, turning off the way (of mesorah) leads to the worshipping of strange gods, asher lo yedatem, which you are not being cognizant of.August 13, 2020 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1891989
Dear Reb Eliezer,
What behavior? I disagreed with everyone and defended nobody.August 13, 2020 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1892011
Wearing a hat is a sign of respect, of behavior infront of a Jewish king and certainly standing infront of the King of Kings but wearing black is not.August 14, 2020 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1892058
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Wearing a hat was a sign of respect in 1920, not 2020.August 14, 2020 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1892087
N0mesorah, did you notice my careful words, Jewish king who follows the Torah?August 14, 2020 9:38 am at 9:38 am #1892101
Dear Reb Eliezer,
I am not clear on what you meant to say after the comma.August 14, 2020 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1892110
When it comes to a Jewish king who follows the Torah and appreciates coveing the head as in SA O’CH 91 and the MB s’k 12 wearing a hat and SA O’CH 8 and MB s’k 4 covering the head with a talis will see it as a sign of respect “now’..August 14, 2020 11:37 am at 11:37 am #1892129
Am I supposed to question the whole theory of an obligation to cover the head? Or, how we get from covering the head to wearing a (black) hat? Or, why do you jump to the tallis now?
When the talking points keep changing, it makes for a poor argument.August 14, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1892145
As I pointed out before that I don’t have to make an argument at least by shmonei esrei, kedusha, leining and benching being a mesorah.August 14, 2020 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1892169
The same could be said for (black) socks.August 16, 2020 7:56 am at 7:56 am #1892343rationalParticipant
A mesorah for a black hat in any situation is a poor joke.
Fabricating a mesorah leads to questioning authentic mesorot.August 16, 2020 11:08 am at 11:08 am #1892518
Wearing a hat (not necessarily black) or covering the head with a talis by davenen is a mesoroh as I pointed out from the SA as it says chovash kovah yeshuah berosho. It also says in the Midrash Yalkut Simoni Ki SIso Remez 398, nisatef HKBH kashliach tzibur. We see that HKBH covers His head kavayochel.
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