December 13, 2021 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #2041256
ישי כהן, “סערה אדירה! העילוי הישיבתי החל שידוכים – והתגלה כ’גוי'”, כיכר השבת, ט’ בטבת, תשפ”ב.
A yeshiva boy began to hear matchmaking, but then his mother revealed to him that she was a complete gentile from the Ukraine
A big storm broke out at one of the well-known yeshivahs after one of the yeshiva students’ chosen ones – was revealed as a gentile born to a gentile mother, Kikar haShabbat learned.
The dramatic story, which made waves, was revealed when the guy started hearing matchmaking – or then it turned out that the hard-working and stagnant guy – is actually a complete gentile.
This is a yeshiva guy, one of the yeshiva’s perseverers and proud of his upbringing, whose parents immigrated from Ukraine several years ago. Last month, when it was decided that he would start hearing matchmaking and go out to meet to find the woman with whom he would build his house on the thresholds of Torah and piety, like a “bomb” was dropped on his head.
In a conversation with his mother, she revealed to him that although his father is a kosher Jew – but she herself is a gentile, from the Ukraine, who has not undergone any conversion…
“In this case, you should act like Beit Hillel, and you love the Ger,” the chief rabbi explained in a conversation with senior members of the conversion system,
In recent days, the young man began to go through the conversion process, religiously and correctly, when immediately afterwards he returned to the Gemara and the Standard, and returned to the matchmaking meetings..December 13, 2021 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #2041260bob hample1Participant
nebachDecember 13, 2021 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #2041286commonsaychelParticipant
Let him eat Chopped Liver and HerringDecember 13, 2021 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #2041280
This is a true conversion.December 13, 2021 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2041294OrangeCountyChapperParticipant
If he had a legit conversion and he’s a mensch, he should have no problem. Since he was raised yeshivish, It does raise the question of why his mother never converted.December 13, 2021 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2041307December 13, 2021 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2041337yaakov doeParticipant
Better now than later. He’ll have no problem with a Besdin.December 14, 2021 12:05 am at 12:05 am #2041414
Where are all the people who wanted to stop the mother from coming?December 14, 2021 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2041424
AAQ -“Where are all the people who wanted to stop the mother from coming?”
My question is – now that The Non-Jewish State has been accepting for years – Non-Jews, why isn’t the Yeshivas & Jewish Schools responsible to make sure that they Only accept Jews?!?December 14, 2021 6:55 am at 6:55 am #2041429
So you would rather have this bochur manning Russian Ukrainian border on either side? Let’s say it is 1 in 100, should we not accept 100 immigrants for one Talmid chacham? And note that those 99 will also vote for right wing parties, putting recent party bilbul asideDecember 14, 2021 6:57 am at 6:57 am #2041436
Re Health’s reply #2041424.
It’s why Avigdor Lieberman’s dangerous parh is so alarming…December 14, 2021 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2041537December 14, 2021 11:12 am at 11:12 am #2041531
“Let him eat Chopped Liver and Herring”
No. That’s Sakkana. He shouldn’t transgress any of the שבע מצוות, either. In truth, he shouldn’t be doing any Aveira, if he’s trying to become Jewish. But he can wear Pasul Tzitzis on Shabbos. But he’ll have to find an area without an Eiruv.December 14, 2021 11:47 am at 11:47 am #2041532
“should we not accept 100 immigrants for one Talmid chacham”
That’s a very odd take. A non-Jewish Talmid Chochom? When he converts, we’ll admire and love him. But are we missing outsiders do the degree that we should allow such mix-ups?
He is the one who will be gaining when he joins. It is also a tremendous Kidush Hashem when someone converts (אוהב ה’ שמות גרים), but for us, does it make a difference?
Now for the caveats. Personally, I believe that potential Geirim are pushed too hard and too long. Many times, they are put off even after recognizing their sincerity. That is a very big problem. The Gemara (in Yevamos, I believe) describes it as a punishable offence to have waited to join. Why is it ok for others to make him wait? Rav Belsky ztl used to complain about this.December 14, 2021 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2041535hujuParticipant
To OrangeCountyChap: If he had a legitimate conversion, why does he also need to be a mensch? Plenty of jerks get a shidduch. Just ask my wife.December 14, 2021 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2041561akupermaParticipant
Hardly uncommon. It is reaching the point where we should assume that any Baal Tseuvah is probably safek goy. Where someone who is frum discovers they aren’t Jewish by halacha (or more likely a safek), conversion is very uncomplicated. Among Ashkenazim, a large number of people have been going off the derekh for the last 200+ years, and given the custom of western Jews to use paternal surnames, only a genealogist can determine the halachic status of a non-frum Jew.December 14, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2041566
Pwkak, it is in the above quoted news article reply #2041307December 14, 2021 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #2041605
HaLeiVi: He can wear kosher tzitzis, too, since he isn’t obligated in it and therefore it is carrying for him.December 14, 2021 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2041621PekakParticipant
Nowhere in the article does it say that he was raised Yeshivish. His parents only recently made aliyah from the Ukraine. They may have sent him to a kiruv school as a child in the Ukraine but that doesn’t constitute a Yeshivish upbringing. The kiruv apparatus in the FSU should be doing a much better job researching the backgrounds of the children they take into their mosdos.December 14, 2021 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2041667
“HaLeiVi: He can wear kosher tzitzis, too, since he isn’t obligated in it and therefore it is carrying for him.”
That’s a famous Yeshivish fun topic to which I do not subscribe.December 14, 2021 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #2041668
Why send him to a yeshiva to be in daled amos of halacha if they don’t believe in it?
What is a yeshivish upbringing? Did I have a yeshivish upbringing? I went to chasiddish yeshivas.December 14, 2021 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2041698
Reb Eliezer, Chasan Sofer and Vien aren’t Chasidish.December 14, 2021 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #2041696
AAQ -“So you would rather have this bochur manning Russian Ukrainian border on either side?”
Who cares what a Goy does?
My point is the Non – Jewish State called Israel, just wants to populate.
They don’t care if the Guys are Jewish, Xiantins, Arabs or anything else!
How could anyone support Zionism?!?
It’s been a failure from the Very Beginning!December 14, 2021 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #2041683
If he is not Jewish, what does carrying mean? Maybe he should carry it as a Non-Jew is forbidden to keep shabbos. Avraham Avinu wore tzitzis, so if he is Jewish, it is not carrying but if he is not Jewish, than he would be carrying.December 14, 2021 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2041741
Go to Chasan Sofer and Wiener now and then tell me they are not chasiddish. When I went, we were taught Rav Chaim by Rav Simcha Bunim ztz’l but the yeshivas were more chasiddish than litvish.December 14, 2021 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2041763
“Avraham Avinu wore tzitzis, so if he is Jewish, it is not carrying but if he is not Jewish, than he would be carrying.”
Yes yes. UJM already referenced this vort. The premise is questionable.December 14, 2021 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #2041768
To ujm and r.Eliezer.
These 2 became chasidish thus generation (like most BP. Where at least Ch.S. is located). Even though originally they even might daven AshkenazDecember 14, 2021 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2041807
> any Baal Tseuvah is probably safek goy.
probably true more of Americans than Soviets. Americans are intermarrying for quite some time and may have crossed the ocean 100 years ago with loss of papers and archives. Those who stayed in USSR and came to Israel in 1990s, there are 2 generations of assimilation, grandparents were probably still alive. If they hide or forge papers, then, of course, all bets are off.December 15, 2021 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2041811
Haleivi: A non-Jewish Talmid Chochom? When he converts, we’ll admire and love him
I would presume that “best bochur” already learned at least something. The fact that he is not Jewish will change quickly and he is not going to lose his memory that fast. So, it is clear already that this is going to be a good person. And, add there, those who actually were Jewish and are also bochurim. Obviously, he was there an only fUSSR bochur, otherwise he would have been vetted extensively.
Btw, we just had a series of articles about missionaries living “frum”, so this is not as bad.December 15, 2021 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2041814
The Haflaah gives another answer. Avraham Avinu worked on motzei shabbos. Figure out the answer.December 15, 2021 12:39 am at 12:39 am #2041828philosopherParticipant
Most Russian/Ukrainian immigrants to Israel in the last few decades are not halachically Jewish. They were given many incentives by the Israeli government to come to Israel. The poverty in many regions in the Ukraine and in the FSU is extremely great; this was these people’s tickets to a better economic future.December 15, 2021 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2042081
As for Zionism, it is a resounding success. Look at where Israel has come in such a short time. Imagine what life would be like here under Arab rule. Anyone who does not recognize this is either blinded by hatred or guilt-ridden by continuing to live in shmutz laAretz a.k.a. the lands of the goyim, a.ka. the lands of tuma.December 15, 2021 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #2042108NechomahParticipant
It doesn’t say that his parents “recently” made aliyah. It says in the original Hebrew article that it was a number of years ago. That could be 10 or 15 years, or longer, and if this bochur is of marriageable age, that may mean he might have been around 7 years old when they came. Somehow he was put into the chareidi chinuch system and just moved on, whether or not his parents were of the same mind. How he reconciled the differences in the way his parents lived to the lives of his friends and rabbeim is a question.
My question is not whether he is going to forget what he has been learning these last years in yeshiva, but whether after this major upheaval in his life he will be the same person emotionally. That can have a tremendous effect on his ability to continue learning at the level he was prior to this whole event. Who knows what his life will look like in 10 years.December 15, 2021 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #2042100
Avi K -“As for Zionism, it is a resounding success. Look at where Israel has come in such a short time. Imagine what life would be like here under Arab rule.”
Under the Ottoman Empire there was peace between Jews & Arabs.
Along came the Zionists – No more peace & so much Shmad.
Did you learn what the Zionists did to the Yeminites?!?
My question to you Zionists what was Wrong with Uganda for your State? Why Eretz Yisroel ?!?December 15, 2021 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2042078
Actually, Americans have only been intermarrying in large numbers in the last couple of decades. Previously, even Jewish communists and gangsters married Jews. Jews lived in Jewish neighborhoods and had mostly Jewish classmates in public schools as they were neighborhood-based and Catholic parents generally sent their kids to parochial schools. People generally know what their parents and grandparents were so once they become observant they know if they are halachically Jewish and go to a rav.
Anyway, there is a halachic principle משפחה שנמעה נטמעה . Who knows what happened in someone’s family a few centuries ago? It could be that we are all mamzerim as during the time of the First Temple adultery was rampant (see Ulla’s response to Rav Yehuda’s brother Rav Yitzchak on Kiddushin 71b),December 15, 2021 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2042178
phil > Most Russian/Ukrainian immigrants to Israel in the last few decades are not halachically Jewish
Most of Rusim came from 1970s to 1990s. Later arrivals are indeed remnants of those who did not come when everyone else did and are way more likely to be non-Jewish or even, if Jewish, have marginal attachment to Judaism. Same goes with Beta Israel – dedicated Jews came first, converted – after.
If this kid ended up in a yeshiva, I don’t think this is random in Israel where people segregate. Maybe his parents are BTs of some degree and the mother realized at some late point that she is not Jewish and did not find strength to disclose (as that Lebanese chatan)December 15, 2021 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2042180
Avi > Americans have only been intermarrying in large numbers in the last couple of decades
Pew says intermarriage was 17% before 1970, big jump to 35% in 1970 and then gradual growth to current 58% This is a little biased as asked in 2013 about marriages that existed that long .. and also at some point numbers become meaningless as those who are counted as “Jewish” actually are not.
other stats I found. Looks like Russians rates grew earlier than in US, but in Ukraine about same time
Germany 1900s: 20%
1924: Russia Males 17% Females 9% (talk about shidduch crisis!) Ukraine 4%/5% Belarus 2%/3%
1936: 44% 35% 18%/16% 13%/11%
1978 59/ 43 45/34 38/26
1988 73/63 54/45 48/40December 15, 2021 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #2042181
> Previously, even Jewish communists and gangsters married Jews
And maybe non-Jews did not want to marry Jews also.. Rav Schach writes that Hashem arranged for Arab hatred if early Zionists. Otherwise, they would all go to study in Cairo and Beirut and intermarry…This also seem to mean that R Schach cared about these guys..
As to gangsters, I am told by a person who somehow knows, that Bugsy Siegal, would show up unannounced at other gangsters’ funeral (at a personal risk of being caught) but did not enter the cemetery (as a Cohen).December 15, 2021 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #2042203
The bochur is already in process of ger tzedek.December 16, 2021 8:39 am at 8:39 am #2042303
Wait a minute. Zionism is a topic for itself. Why not start as new thread, or seven of them?
But then again, you can just copy and paste from the old ones. I doubt anything unsaid will be said now (besides for my own opinions, obviously).December 16, 2021 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #2042396
Health, you are really funny. Don’t give up your day job though. When WW1 broke out the Turks expelled any Jew who did not have Ottoman citizenship (European Jews kept theirs as it was advantageous under the concessions given to European powers). There was even a period when any Ashkenazi was grabbed do to debts from the synagogue that followers of Rabbi Yehuda heChassid tried to build (it was destroyed because of the debt, which is why it is called the Churva Synagogue).
Always, that was Abner “Longie” Zwillman and it was a funeral home. Segal, as his name suggests, was a levy. There is a memorial plaque for him in the Bialystoker Synagogue. There was also a hit man named Samuel “Red” Levine who kept kosher, wore a kippa under his hat, and never carried out a contract on Shabbat if he could avoid it – and even then he first went to shul.December 16, 2021 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #2042428
Avi, did he go to the Mikva, too? Was he makpid on Cholov Yisroel?December 16, 2021 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2042545
Avi K, thanks for correcting my story.
Re: Ottomans. We don’t need to drive very far from Israel to see how EY would fare without Jews coming back – look at Syria, Lebanon, Yemen or on a slightly brighter note – Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq.December 16, 2021 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #2042633
Avi K -“When WW1 broke out the Turks expelled any Jew who did not have Ottoman citizenship”
You Zionists love to twist the Truth.
Zionism started in the Late 1800’s.
But until that time, the Jews and the Arabs got along.
Your so Blind with your Zionism, you don’t even see the Destruction.
Just today another Frum Jew got killed by Arab hatred.
I’ll repeat again – the Hatred started with the Onset of Zionism!December 19, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2043077
Always, you’re welcome.
Health, you do not know the long history of persecution in Arab countries. The hatred started with Mohammed, who wiped out Jewish tribes. In any case, it is a Torah mitzva to conquer Eretz Yisrael and establish a state.December 19, 2021 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2043134
Avi K -“Health, you do not know the long history of persecution in Arab countries. The hatred started with Mohammed, who wiped out Jewish tribes. In any case, it is a Torah mitzva to conquer Eretz Yisrael and establish a state.”
Actually I do know; I’ve read From Time Immorreial.
When Mohammed took over the whole Area – the Jews Scoffed at him.
So he got angry, but he was too Scared to start up the Jews, because he was scared of Hashem.
Therefore he made 3 places Yerushalyim, Mecca & one other.
When the Jews stopped Keeping the Torah his Talmid started up with them.
This the way I understand the History.
It’s all Depends if you keep the Torah!
Again do your Zionists keep the Torah?
Or they do everything to Stop Jews from Keeping it?December 19, 2021 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #2043167charliehallParticipant
“When WW1 broke out the Turks expelled any Jew who did not have Ottoman citizenship”
And even worse, the Ottoman Governor of the region that included Eretz Yisrael then tried to do to the Jews there what they had already done to the Armenians. Many Jews had to flee, some even to Egypt! You can even find some articles about this effort in the archives of the New York Times!
The Ottoman Empire, for most of its existence, treated Jews better than most other European countries. But it is not hard to have treated Jews batter than England, France, Spain, Portugal, or Russia, which were Judenrein for much of that period. But had the British Army not arrived in time it is entirely possible that the Ottomans would have done what the Romans and Crusaders had failed to do — exterminated all Jews in the Land of Israel. Excusing the genocidal Ottoman leaders is simply inexcusable.December 19, 2021 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2043177
Time Immemorial is a pro Zionist book, which is aims to refute the claims that Zionists stole the land from the Arabs. Its focus is on the last two centuries.
I really do not want to get into another pro/anti Zionism discussion here (start a new thread, if you’d like), but you’d confuses me.December 19, 2021 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #2043267
I don’t think we can summarize Muslim-Jewish relationship in one sentence. Rambam had to run away from crazy Muslims in Spain to more moderate ones in Fes (with it’s first Madara/Proto-University before Europeans had them) and then to Egypt… Rambam ran away from Christian Spain to Muslim lands … Ottomans let Sefardim after they were kicked out of Spain … Think of Har Habait: if Muslims were not there for last 1,000+ years, it would be either have some avoda zara or a garbage dump.
But if the question is how would EY work without Zionists, just look at Syria now instead of Ottomans a hundred years ago.December 19, 2021 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #2043287
Oh Charlie, -“And even worse, the Ottoman Governor of the region that included Eretz Yisrael then tried to do to the Jews there what they had already done to the Armenians. Many Jews had to flee, some even to Egypt! You can even find some articles about this effort in the archives of the New York Times!”
I already answered that.
The fact was WW1 made life miserable for everyone.
So do you take it out on?
The typical Scapegoats of the world.
The fact are the Jews got along with the Arabs before Zionism stuck their Ugly head in!
I’m from part descended from that time.
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