- This topic has 55 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 10 months ago by Anonymous.
November 18, 2008 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #588686
Maybe it’s none of my buisness but I think this should be known to the oylam.
Last night I was in a bowling alley in Lakewood, this alley has a big bar which seems to be a big hang-out. Anyway as I was passing the window of the bar (two different rooms) we see a few YESHIVA BOCHURIM in there drinking having a good time!
Rabboysai if I’m not mistaken this is a big situation!November 18, 2008 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #625481jewishfeminist02Member
Wait a second, let’s be dan l’kaf zechut here. There are a few different ways to look at the situation. Since you were only passing by and saw through the window some boys whom you don’t know personally, there could be a lot more that you don’t know that would explain what you saw. Here are two possibilities: (Obviously I have taken two extremes and there are infinite in-between possibilities, but this should give the general idea)
1. They are under the age of 21 and are in the bar illegally. They attend yeshiva because their parents force them to but do not feel a real connection to Judaism; therefore, on this particular night, they have chosen to blow off classes and have left the yeshiva without asking permission from the rosh yeshiva. They are in the bar with the express intention of getting drunk and their conversation revolves around women.
2. They are over the age of 21 and are in the bar legally. They are respectable bochurim from good family backgrounds and are an asset to their yeshiva. On this particular night, one of them has just come back from a shidduch date with the news that he is engaged to be married. Overjoyed for him, his friends decide to go into the bar and make a l’chayim. They have double-checked the brand name of the alcohol with their Rav to ensure that it is kosher, and they are not missing any classes by sitting in the bar.
No doubt you will say that the second situation is highly unlikely. However, so is the first one, and it is our responsibility to assume the second situation since we really do not have very many facts.November 18, 2008 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #625482
We are talking Monday Night Football.
Lets see what this bar looks like tonight.November 18, 2008 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #625483
A bar is not permissible to a frum yid, let alone a Yeshiva Bachor, EVER.November 18, 2008 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #625484
Joseph, why not?November 18, 2008 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #625485
Of couse I was don lekaf zechus but in such ways it’s not to easy.
Again a yeshiva bochur should not be in a bar. PERIOD.November 18, 2008 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #625486
We have Kosher Phones, Kosher Concerts. Perhaps its time for Kosher Bars.November 18, 2008 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #625487illini07Member
Once again, you make a blanket statement which is categorically false.November 18, 2008 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #625488tzippiMember
Sounds like Dov Haller’s story, In Black and White.November 18, 2008 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #625489oomisParticipant
maybe they were drinking coca cola or even water. I agree it is not a great environment for boys OR girls, but it could have been innocent.November 18, 2008 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #625490
if beer bottles have coca cola or water please let me know.November 18, 2008 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #625491
lgbg – if its plain beer, chances are it was kosherNovember 18, 2008 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #625492yoshiMember
They do make glass bottles for soda and water. It’s safer to drink from glass rather than most plastic bottles. Unless the plastic bottle is BPA free or contains a very minimal amount.
As for them looking like beer bottles, they make a brand of ginger ale in a bottle, and from not so far away, you can’t tell the difference between soda and beer. Kids used to use that as a prank on Purim back in the day.November 18, 2008 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #625493
Please NAME ONE Rov who says it’s ok to hang out in a bar, c’mon.
Anyone who can’t figure out on their own why a frum yid should not step foot into a bar is hanging out on the wrong website.November 18, 2008 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #625494
chances are it was kosher
chances are it was okay
chances are it was kosher
chances are it was tznius
chances are it was all for fun
chances are it was not maaris eyin
chances are they didn’t do anything inappropriate
chances are they didn’t hook up with the wrong crowd
chances are it was perfectly fine for a Yeshiva Bachor
chances are they’ll stay frum
chances are they’ll stay kosher
chances are they won’t go off the derech
Too many “chances.”November 18, 2008 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #625495
Joseph, chances are you are supposed to be dan lekaf zechus.
Notpashut, why CANT you go into a bar? If you are going to say its assur, you should quote a reason. I have no problem with anyone going out for an occasional beer with friends, so long as they are overage. Is there a halachic reason why they shouldnt? Then, that would be a different story.
You can just walk around saying “Thats wrong” without a reason.November 18, 2008 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #625496freezerMember
lgbg, just curious-who were u with at the bowling alley??November 18, 2008 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #625497
I am not talking about drinking kosher beer or not, I’m talking hanging out in a non -jewish bar.November 18, 2008 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #625498
why would you like to know?November 18, 2008 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #625499
lgbg, what is the prohibition against being in a non kosher bar? is it just maaras ayin? Perhaps being dan lekaf zechus should counter the maaras aying…
Are you any better than they are? You are judging them without knowing the situation fully.November 18, 2008 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #625500
LGBG was out bowling with me.November 19, 2008 12:40 am at 12:40 am #625501TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
oh really … and what is the problem with having a kosher drink at a bar while watching football?November 19, 2008 2:59 am at 2:59 am #625503The Queen of PersiaMember
I can’t believe that on a Yeshivishe website people are condoning going into a bar. You are all rationalizing something that is obviously WRONG!!!!!
I wonder what your reactions would have been to Chushim ben Dan (the guy who chopped off Esav’s head) had you lived in his generation.November 19, 2008 3:11 am at 3:11 am #625504
Queen, what makes it so wrong? Where is the halacha that says its forbidden to have a kosher drink at a bar?November 19, 2008 3:34 am at 3:34 am #625505The Queen of PersiaMember
SJSinNYC: Have you ever heard of a “menuval b’reshus haTorah”?November 19, 2008 4:16 am at 4:16 am #625506The Rabbis daughtersMember
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever a bunch of bachurim should be hanging out in a bar.It does not matter at all if the beer was kosher. The whole concept that a frum yid would hang out in a bar is so wrong and disturbing.November 19, 2008 4:34 am at 4:34 am #625507David Bar-MagenMember
To all of you who are immediately salivating over your keyboards to judge these bachurim, consider the following two scenarios:
Scenario 1: Three yeshiva guys go to a kiddush on Shabbas afternoon, get embarassingly drunk and spend over an hour catcalling at all the girls going in and out of the kiddush.
Scenario 2: Three yeshiva guys, bored on a weeknight, go bowling and then relax with a couple of beers in the adjacent bar.
I have seen both scenarios play themselves out in Lakewood many times. I can tell you which scenario I felt was the wronger of the two, but I probably don’t have to. Before you spend 150+ posts debating the wrongness or rightness of a bar, process the fact that you have absolutely NO idea what motivations lay behind those bachurim being there.
Note: I am not saying that they were right; I only seek to point out that NO-ONE HERE knows the whole story.November 19, 2008 4:43 am at 4:43 am #625508
There is no “story” where a Yeshiva Bachor, or any frum yid for that matter, should EVER be in a bar. (“Wronger” shmonger. Two wrongs don’t make a right.)November 19, 2008 4:59 am at 4:59 am #625509zalmyMember
this is ridiculous. joseph and his comrades can’t come up with a single issur or even a legitimate halachik problem with the situation, yet they are tripping over one another to bemoan how terrible it is, how these bochurim already on their way “off the derech”, etc.
perhaps joseph, et al. should be a bit more precise, and state that by going into a bar, the bochurim in question were not maintaining the frum/yeshivish IMAGE expected of them, as defined by joseph (much as they would not be if they were caught wearing a (gasp!) blue shirt or brown shoes).
in light of this attitude, its really no surprise that there is such a problem nowadays with frum kids (really) going “off the derech.” when kids/teenagers see that the ‘ikkar’ of yiddishkeit for most people has become this silly ‘chitzoniusdike’ IMAGE (i.e., wear this hat, go to this yeshiva, talk using these yiddish words, etc.) instead of the true values of our torah and halacha, its sadly no wonder that many of them reject it.
going around saying that everything under the sun is ‘assur’ (blue shirts – assur!, not wearing a hat – treif!, going to college – chas veshalom!) is not only silly and wrong, but it is also destructive as it cheapens and degrades the importance of TRUE torah and halacha. do you really think rabbi akiva or moshe rabbeinu only wore a black suit, white shirt, and black hat?? lets get real, people.November 19, 2008 5:07 am at 5:07 am #625510David Bar-MagenMember
Again: process the fact that you have NO idea what was going on. As I already stressed, I am not justifying their decision to visit the bar–I am pointing out that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else on these boards including the originator of this thread has any idea what the exact story was.
And yes, you DO need to know the story, and yes, it DOES make a huge difference. There can be a bigger chillul Hashem caused by yeshiva guys going to a kiddush (a seudas mitzva) than a bar. I’ve seen it many times.
Lgbg began this thread with, “Maybe it’s none of my business…”
So far, that’s the most admirable statement I’ve read.November 19, 2008 5:11 am at 5:11 am #625511
Do you really think Rabbi Akiva or Moshe Rabbeinu EVER would be in a bar c’v?? I need to go to the mikva shuddering even at the question.November 19, 2008 5:27 am at 5:27 am #625513abcd1234Participant
There is nothing clearly written in halacha of why it would be wrong to go into a bar but its simply not in “the spirit of the law” for boys in yeshiva to be doing so. At the same time i would like to bring up that each case is one of its own and no blanket statement covering everyone can be said about this situation, or anything else for that matter.The piont of this thread (as i would imagine it to be) is to make sure what your kids are doing and keep an eye on them. At the same time let me mention that there are cases sometimes and maybe often (not likely in this case, but nevertheless, still possible) that a bar may be an inprovement over something else. Point being, its not for us to judge.November 19, 2008 5:30 am at 5:30 am #625514
“There can be a bigger chillul Hashem caused by yeshiva guys going to a kiddush…”
Agreed. Yet two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because there could be, or there is, or there was, another type of situation thats worse – in no way, and no how, justifies this travesty and Chillul Hashem of the first order.November 19, 2008 6:09 am at 6:09 am #625515just askMember
I have a suggestion. Instead of making assumptions and jumping to conclusions about why they are there, I suggest to actually go over to these boys and speak in a nonjudgemental way and inquire why they are there or what they are doing. This doesn’t have to be direct, but done with sincerity. When you feel that there is something wrong, only then would I recommend contacting the right people to intercede on their behalf. All this back and forth talk is wasted time. Get up and see if it’s harmful or harmless, but be sure you are doing it for the right reasons not for your own curiosity or self rightiousness (sp?). Please remember that there are many bachurim out there that may have problems at home or may have difficulty with all the pressures that yeshivos may put on some bachurim that cannot keep up with the pace of things. Some rachmanus helps and trying to be dan lkaf zchus or understanding of each individual. Such blanket statements that “bachurim should never be in a bar” is quite naive in our day and age. Unfortunately, there are many bachurim nowadays that are troubled adn may not be dealt with proper guidance.
So, lgbg, next time you see such a thing, inform us of what you did to try to understand the situation.November 19, 2008 9:50 am at 9:50 am #625516mamashtakahMember
You know, one of the things about becoming a respected Rav or Posek is the ability to learn to address an entire situation, “the whole story.” A Rev learns, through experience, that there are shades of gray in the world (despite what some people on YWN would have you believe). Stop judging everything in black and white, and the klal would be much better off. You don’t know what happened at the bowling alley, you were not there, so stop trying to blow something out of proportion that you know nothing about.November 19, 2008 11:08 am at 11:08 am #625517shindyMember
We can’t judge what was going on in the bar, but I will tell you as a mother I would be upset if my son was in a bar drinking when I thought I was sending him to lakewood to learn. But boys will be boys…..November 19, 2008 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #625518intellegentMember
This whole argument is DUMB.November 19, 2008 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #625519
One of the greatest answers I’ve ever heard was from R’ Moshe Shternbuch (Rav of Yerushalayim) when someone asked him a “Where does it say in halacha that it’s assur” question, to which he responded “Where does it say in halacha that you can’t put a cat in the Aron Kodesh”?
If you still don’t understand – I can’t help you.November 19, 2008 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #625520
notpashut – there is a bit of a difference.
I personally go out every once in a while with some friends to bars. We drink only kosher drinks. We dont get very rowdy. And yes, we do look Jewish.
There is nothing INHERENTLY wrong with going into a bar. Maybe it was a “kosher bachelor” party where they were having on night of fun before one of them was getting married. Nothing wrong with celebrating a simcha with your friends!
Are you not allowed to go to a restaurant that serves alcohol? Is it solely because its not a kosher place? If so, then you shouldnt go to ANY non kosher place (bowling alleys included), especially if they serve some form of non kosher food.
I’m just trying to figure out what people are so against. Is it the bitul zman? The drinking? The non kosher establishment?
Putting a cat in the aron is showing disrespect for the sefer torah. Not to mention, the cat could pee on the torah which I think would make it pasul (but I am not sure).
You cant just say “its wrong” without a reason. Halacha is very much about defining details. Sometimes, the nuances are left to Rabbis, but even then, its connected to a source. We, as a religion, dont make up halacha!November 19, 2008 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #625521
jphone- you wish
David bar magen -you were serious or was that suppose to be sarcastic
And to everyone else: I was talking to a friend of mine last night about this whole situation of frum yeshiva guys in a non-jewish bar. This is what we came out with::
WOULD YOU WANT A GUY WHO GOES TO THE BAR TO HANG OUT AS A HUSBAND OR AS A SON IN LAW?
OR RATHER WOULD YOU LET YOUR OWN SON GO?November 19, 2008 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #625522intellegentMember
I would imagine going to a bowling alley is different then a bar/restaurant. People go to a bowling alley to go bowling and food is an added convenience that not everyone there uses. On the other hand people go to a bar or a restaurant mainly for the food/drinks.
I still think this argument is DUMB though. You want to argue whether it’s good or not to go to a bar, do that. Why be busy with being dan l’kaf zchus these boys or not?! We have no idea who they are if they in fact exist!November 19, 2008 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #625524
Once again I we are just going to have to disagree. 🙂 special for youNovember 19, 2008 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #625526Feif UnParticipant
lgbg, what you’d want as a son-in-law doesn’t really matter. There are plenty of people here (Joseph?) who probably wouldn’t want a guy who wears blue shirts as a son-in-law. Does that mean it’s wrong to wear a blue shirt? No, people want a certain type, and someone who goes to a bar might not be the type they want. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong.November 19, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #625527
Feif Un, I wear blue shirts!November 19, 2008 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #625528
Wearing a blue shirt and going to a bar is 2 totally different things.
My boss for instance wears colored shirts but is a true yiras shmayim, and I do not stereotype people for the way they are dressed (unless they look like a shiksa), but seeing yeshiva bochurim drinking in a bar that is a whole different picture.
They knew they were doing something wrong. and you know what. sometimes we Jews don’t do some things which al pi halacha is right- meaning no issur in the Torah. BUT it just doesn’t ‘pas’ for a frum yid to do, and in my opinion going to a bar falls under that catogory.November 19, 2008 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #625529
notpashut – as long as the smiley is there, we can disagree 🙂
On a serious note – I am not saying hanging out at a bar is a great thing. But to proclaim this as a terrible, terrible thing???? If someone is an alcoholic its a terrible thing to go into a bar. If someone is using this as a way to meet women (and continue on an inappropriate path) then its a terrible thing.
To go to a bar every once in a while is not a terrible thing.
Intellegent, while I understand what you are saying, we all make judgement calls. So for some, going to a bowling alley is ok because they wont eat food. But I can tell you, I used to bowl quite a bit with my friends and we would see some very “unkosher” things going on at the bowling alley by “frum” people. So, going to a bar and drinking kosher beer (he said just having fun, not behaving wildly or flirting with women or anything) is not a terrible thing IMHO. But its ok to disagree with me because its opinion based.November 19, 2008 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #625530smalltowngirlMember
Hopefully these young men are of age to be in the bar.
Not that I personally know these young men but I am reasonably certain that they don’t profess themselves to be R’ Akiva nor Moshe Rabbeinu. They are young men hopefully doing the best they can in their yiddishkeit. Maybe their standards differ from yours.November 19, 2008 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #625531classofTASHAMMember
The bochurim were relaxing with a drink perhaps, because they are not busy enough. If the “system” would allow the bochurim to have an eye on the future, to consider parnassah responsibilities they’d be using their time to the fullest. I don’t think Rav Aaron zt”l imagined having boys in Lkwd not using their time productively. Maybe we have to allow them to grow up and give them some healthy independence. Anyways, their parents will probably see their beer purchase on the credti card so lets let them deal with this.November 19, 2008 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #625532squeakParticipant
Of course you do, Joseph. What do you think, no one here has ever seen a Ch”Ch guy before?November 19, 2008 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #625533charlie brownMember
do you seriously think it would be a good idea for a frum girl to walk up to a group of bochurim in a bar and start shmoozing with them to try to figure out why they’re there???
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