The Draft and Mattos-Masei

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  • #966968

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid and popa- you can attribute any statement to me that you wish, even if it defies logic (If I am a chareidi, how can I hate myself?)but just tell me whether some on the chareidi leadership did not show hatred for the “other side” in all their statemente about ‘reshoim’, “wanting to eliminate Torah”, “kofrim’ and many other sayings that you can read every day on YWN. That is a lot more damning and hateful than anything I have said. My disgust is at those who shelter behind the protection of the Israeli army, who shamelessly milk other jews for all what they can get, who spit in the cup they drink from aand then turn around and refuse any reasonable compromise in improving the lot of everyone. Yup-those people I have contempt for.

    #966969

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    you can attribute any statement to me that you wish, even if it defies logic (If I am a chareidi, how can I hate myself?)

    Is that argument more like:

    “I am a semite, how can I be an anti-semite”, or

    “I am jewish, how can I hate jews”?

    In either event, the answer here is: because you said you do.

    You also said that you dress and act chareidi. You should really just let yourself be who you are, and start dressing and acting MO, and go to an MO shul and get an MO rav. You might find that you hate us less when you don’t feel trapped inside us.

    #966970

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    popa- I enjoy dressing like a chareidi, I enjoy having a chassidic rebbe as my mentor, I enjoy the traditions and customs of my chareidi background and I have no intention discarding them. What I don’t appreciate is hypocrisy and ingratitude, I believe in our Jewish destiny in Israel. I abhor asinine statements about “shmad”, “eliminating Torah” and twisting chazal and a slew of halachic sayings to fit a specific selfish program. I certianly do not hate chareidim nor do I hate an jew but I despise people who are supercilious and arrogant, who think that only they know the truth. Yup, those people I despise.

    #966971

    akuperma
    Participant

    Why we are yelling at each other – there are two distinct groups.

    One are pro-zionist yeshiva students who hate Arabs, think the IDF is protecting them from the Arabs, enjoy getting benefits from the medinah, would like to drive the Arabs out of Eretz Yisrael, and are in effect saying “You go fight the Arabs – Kal ha-Kavod … May my learning in yeshiva help you.” These people if they aren’t joining the army already, will probably end up doing so.

    The other group are anti-zionists who feel the zionists unnecessarily started a war that was totally avoidable, that trading statehood for autonomy is the only path to peace, see nothing wrong with becoming friends with Muslims, do not see the Arabs as a threat, and question whether it is allowed to kill Arabs or destroy their property since the zionists are the “Rodefim” and a Rodef, unlike a Nirdaf, is required to withdraw from the fight. Under international law, this group are clearly conscientious objectors, and attempts to conscript them will cause serious problems for the Israelis.

    #966972

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The other group are anti-zionists who feel the zionists unnecessarily started a war that was totally avoidable, that trading statehood for autonomy is the only path to peace, see nothing wrong with becoming friends with Muslims, do not see the Arabs as a threat, and question whether it is allowed to kill Arabs or destroy their property since the zionists are the “Rodefim” and a Rodef, unlike a Nirdaf, is required to withdraw from the fight. Under international law, this group are clearly conscientious objectors, and attempts to conscript them will cause serious problems for the Israelis.

    I agree 100%. The Charaidi argument should be (as I have said earlier, as this is the real point in contention) that they object to the state in totality, and therefore should not be coerced to serve or join in any of its activities (including VAT. An export tax should be charged to “Charaidi stores” (as part of a semi-autonomus entity) instead of collecting VAT from consumers).

    #966973

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    apukerma- I do admire you for this; at least you don’t hide your true intentions.

    popa- at last, we know where you stand. No wonder that you never find any fault with extreme chareidi positions.

    #966974

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa- at last, we know where you stand. No wonder that you never find any fault with extreme chareidi positions.

    lolwut

    I didn’t say anything.

    Do you typically read this much into what people don’t say? Maybe all that stuff you criticize us for is all just made up in your head.

    #966975

    HaKatan
    Participant

    ROB, according to Rav Dovid Soloveichik, the hatred towards “the other side” should actually be much greater than it is because of “Misanecha Hashem Esna” and more. And Zionism, both theoretically and practically, is indeed shmad, kefirah and more, which, in your illogical and unshakeable loyalty to your egel, you always refuse to see.

    The Brisker Rov said the Zionists need a State to shmad, not the other way around. And the Zionists did and do shmad. It is grossly despicable for “Jews” to force Jews to give up even one of the Torah’s beliefs and practices. That’s your Zionism. We have discussed this before, but you still refuse to face the reality of your idol.

    In case this isn’t obvious, Shmad is not only literally forcing someone at gunpoint to bow to an idol, though if the Zionists did that you’d still probably find some heter for this egel, the Satan’s greatest triumph since the Egel HaZahav, as quoted numerous times.

    #966976

    musser zoger
    Participant

    The other group are anti-zionists who feel the zionists unnecessarily started a war that was totally avoidable, that trading statehood for autonomy is the only path to peace, see nothing wrong with becoming friends with Muslims, do not see the Arabs as a threat

    Complete and utter drivel. Go to Pakistan dressed like a Chareidi. Tell them you are anti -zionist and want to be friends. Let’s see how long you keep your head. The biggest falacy is that “they hate zionists, not Jews.” Hogwash. Dont be naive. These pere adam hate Jews…ALL JEWS period. They dont want to trade statehood. They want all of eretz Yisroel and the Jews in the sea.

    #966977

    truthsharer
    Member

    Hakatan, you can keep posting your stupid drivel but nothing will change the fact that your opinions are a minority of a minority of Jewish rabbanim.

    In addition, you seem to think that it’s 100% black or white, but guess what, nothing is 100% black or white.

    #966978

    akuperma
    Participant

    musser zoger: Actually there were Jews in what is now Pakistan before the war between the Zionists and the Arabs began. In fact many Muslims countries had thriving Jewish communities. Based on the percentage of those who fled to America, it seems they were a lot happier than were European Jews. Whereas the collapse of European Jewish communities had nothing to do with the zionists, the collapse of Jewish communities in Muslim countries (which involve minimial loss of life compared to the massive casulties during the collapse of European Jewry in the 20th century) was clearly triggered by the decision of the zionists to go to war with the Muslims.

    Note that the anti-zionist hareidim have no desire to interfere with your war effort. They aren’t planting bombs in zionist yeshivos, or blowing up buses with mixed seating, or attacking your pizza places. All they want is to be left alone. They wish to learn in peace, work at jobs (on the books will be nice, but most manage to support themselves with “unofficial” jobs since they aren’t allowed to work for the zionist economy), and follow a traditional Jewish lifestyle. IT IS YOU ZIONISTS WHO OBJECT. The Hareidim don’t demand anything except to be left alone.

    #966979

    musser zoger
    Participant

    And Zionism, both theoretically and practically, is indeed shmad, kefirah and more, which, in your illogical and unshakeable loyalty to your egel, you always refuse to see

    This is hilarious stuff. You Mr Katan, have illogical and unshakable loyalty. Rabanim should leave politics to the politicians and teach Torah misinai and stop getting robots riled up with the zionist bogeyman.

    #966980

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“health- I have a very easy solution to you and the ones who espouse your views: move to another country who does not require you to ‘share’ in any burden. I am sure that the israeli government will be very sympathetic to you moving to, say, albania.”

    This post is so ironic. I’ve been espousing this argument for years and none of the Zionists here it took it seriously, except it was the other way around.

    That’s right – the Zionists and even the so-called “Religious” Zionists should reconsider making their homeland in Uganda and the rest of us who realize that even Israel is Golus will have the land of Palestine ruled by the Goyim like Turkey. This IMHO will hasten the coming of Moshiach!

    #966981

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Health- Eretz Yisroel is never golus! As you know, the gemoro is very dismissive on anyone who lives in chutz lo-oretz…and my remark was not meant to taken literally- the arguments on this post have become very nasty and I do regret some of my own words.In these “nine days’, one has to bw very careful what one says!

    #966982

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“Health- Eretz Yisroel is never golus! As you know, the gemoro is very dismissive on anyone who lives in chutz lo-oretz…”

    Yes, it is Golus, in spite of the Chazals saying the things they did about living in Chutz Laaretz. The Medina IS NOT Esschalta of the Geula!

    “and my remark was not meant to taken literally”

    But mine was! Zionists reconsider making your Medina in Uganda!

    #966983

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Ideology isn’t synonymous with the gavra. You can love someone (I love all Jews) even if you don’t love what they do (desecrating Shabbos, desecrating G-d’s name, etc.)

    #966984

    HaKatan
    Participant

    truthsharer and musser zoger, instead of attempting to prove these great Rabbis to be wrong (certainly a foolish endeavor), you simply deride those who rightly condemn that which you cannot defend but inexplicably can’t help but defend.

    Regarding “Rabbanim should leave politics to the politicians”, you are implying that decisions of learning versus, lihavdil, IDF are outside the purview of Rabbinic interest. I didn’t know there was “musser” outside of Orthodox Jewry, because your implication is certainly well outside the bounds of observant Judaism. It’s more like Zionists.

    Regarding not everything is “black and white”, this is certainly true, but irrelevant here.

    Even if Lapid actually mean what he claims, that he simply wants to help Chareidim, and not, as it appears, liHashcicham Torasecha uliHaaviram meChukei ritzonecha, this, too, is not relevant.

    The end result of this whole proposal is the same: more shmad, in line with clear and primary Zionist ideology of replacing Judaism with CH”V Zionism. It is absurd to suggest otherwise unless you know for sure that this case is different, and there is no reason to believe this case is any different.

    It’s too bad that Zionists, including “Religious Zionists” can’t face the facts about their own ignominious history of Zionism.

    Please go read what the Torah sages of today have written of this whole issue. For example, Rav Dovid Soloveichik’s pieces on this are freely available online. Additionally, please read what Herzl and the other Zionists and, lihavdil, how gedolim such as the Brisker Rov who lived then and there understood Zionism, before you make uneducated and derogatory comments.

    #966985

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    health: “yes, it is golus, in spite of the chazal ssying the things they did about living in chutz lo-oretz”. SO- you do not accept what the gemoro says? I thought you followed halocho…

    #966986

    rebdoniel
    Member

    Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.

    #966987

    HaKatan
    Participant

    rebdoniel, that’s not exactly true. Not all of those were Zionists. Rav Kalischer, for instance, pre-dated Zionism and came long before the State of Israel. Even Rav Reines, who led Mizrachi at the turn of the last century, is not mentioned as one who condoned Zionist merida baUmos and certainly not the ongoing Zionist shmad which he was against.

    Like many of the Zionists “sources”, the above Rabbis were no longer around when it was still decades before the State of Israel was to be founded. So these are not sources for anything practical.

    I’ll leave it at that.

    #966988

    lesschumras
    Participant

    HaKatan,shmad did not need a state or zionism. It began in Western Europe with the Enlightenment and the rise of Reform Judaism. In Eastern Europe the Gedolim made two miscalculations that led to far more shmad than zionism. They thought thst the depotic Empires that kept Jews confined to shtetls would remain in place and, like in previous centuries, Jews had no choice.

    However, millions of Jews left for the US, with mass shmad resulting. With the Empires weakenibg and falling, far more Jews became Radicals,Anarchists, Socialists, and Communists than became zionists. And it was the Jewish Commmunists who did such an effective job in shmadding Jews trapped in the Soviet Union after WW1. Eueopean Jewry in the 30’s were experiencing what American Jewry is going thru today with respect to people leaving Yiddishkeit behind.

    However, you are so blinded by your hatred of zionism, you don’t recognize any of the above. The original zionists were as anti-religious as all of the other movements, but they were a minor player in the shmadding of EuropeanJewry.

    #966989

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lc, how does the shmadding of the reform somehow justify that of the zionists?

    #966990

    Josh31
    Participant

    Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.

    #966991

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.

    I don’t know why that would be. Chilonim are not zionist.

    #966992

    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, it doesn’t justify anything. I was just pointing out to Hakatan that Zionism was far from the only, let alone the largest. cause of shmad

    #966993

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“SO- you do not accept what the gemoro says? I thought you followed halocho…”

    So now you’re a Poisek and are telling me where I have to live?

    First of all, there are many Heterim given to live in Chutz Laaretz and I thought you always have to go with Kulos acc. to your previous posts? And besides which, the Satmer Rebbe zt’l held it’s better to live in Chutz LaAretz than in Treif Medinas Israel.

    #966994

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance.

    Is that what we base our hashkafos on, or do we base them on the truth?

    #966995

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: There are no more Zionists of the form that the anti-Zionists rail against. But they will treat the average Israeli “Zionist” the same as the nameless internet “Zionists”.

    #966996

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Rabbi of Berlin says one must live in Eretz Yisroel… hmmmm… Since when is Berlin in Eretz Yisroel?

    #966997

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Gamanit- First- you don’t know where I live. Second- I certainly don’t consider Eretz Yisroel “golus”-chas vecholilo- as “health” does.My point to “health’ was that (you can read his post) he dismissed many chazal and gemoros that deplore living in chutz lo-oretz.To this, I contrasted his attitude of always following halocho and ,in this case, denigrating, chazal.

    #966998

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Health: I fully know that there are exceptions to living in Eretz Yisroel and indeed, I would never be your “Possek” and insist that you live in Eretz Yisroel.

    My objection to your post was when you named Eretz Yisroel “golus”.Chas vecholilo!!

    And, as far as R” Joelish zz’l goes, there must be many of his followers in Eretz Yisroel who are not listening to him in this matter of living outside of Eretz Yisroel. Maybe they should stop listening to him on other matters too!

    #966999

    Health
    Participant

    Gamanit -“Rabbi of Berlin says one must live in Eretz Yisroel… hmmmm… Since when is Berlin in Eretz Yisroel?”

    Maybe he thinks like the following post?!?

    “Avi K – To all those who love being in Galut: the Ohr Sameach said that if someone thinks that Berlin is his Yerushalayim Hashem will show him otherwise.”

    #967001

    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaasYochid, thank you.

    lesschumras and Sam2:

    I never argued that Zionism was the greatest form of shmad and I also did not argue that a typical Israeli Zionist should be ch”V mistreated in any way. I have, in the past, written that your typical Israeli Zionist is likely a tinok sheNishba to Zionism. But the theology of Zionism, its actions, and its proponents should still be understood for what those and they are.

    Sam2, I don’t understand how you come up with “no more Zionists of the form”. As the Brisker Rov wrote and as is simple historical fact, Zionism’s whole reason for existence is shmad. Although the Zionists have changed tactics somewhat since the yaldei Tehran atrocities, the State and its IDF are still engaged in shmad in many levels and ways.

    Again, because it seems that very few people get this, the Brisker Rav wrote, and is a matter of plain history, that the Zionists need a state in order to shmad (not the other way around, terrible as even that would be).

    #967002

    truthsharer
    Member

    1) Just because the BR says it’s a fact doesn’t make it a fact.

    2) 99.99999% of YESHIVHS, CHAREDI people don’t hold of the BR, so by you continuing to bring him and Satmar doesn’t do much.

    The FACT remains is that in Europe, MOST of the gedolim were in favor. See the writings of R’ Chaim Berlin, R’ YE Spektor, and many, many others.

    #967003

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“My objection to your post was when you named Eretz Yisroel “golus”.Chas vecholilo!!”

    Yes, it is Golus. The Medina Is Not Esschalta of the Geula like the Zionists claim.

    I guess next week you’ll be skipping part of Eicha that says in 4:22 “Lo Yosef Lehaglosaich”, if you’re in Israel, because you don’t consider EY “Golus”. It seems that most of the Klal, that still read Eicha, consider that the words of the Novi still apply everywhere!

    #967004

    Toi
    Participant

    truth- you said “99.99999% of YESHIVHS, CHAREDI people don’t hold of the BR…” shussim. most litvishe yeshivos give great weight to what the rov held. R cahim said it too, that their tachlis as a movement is to destroy torah judasism.

    #967005

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    health: I have no idea what your mention of the well known ohr someach does. I fulle endorse what he wrote, that one who thinks that the center of the world is not jerushalaim (alluding to German Reform Judiasm)will suffer greatly (in reference to the tochacho).

    As far as your other assertion, that Eretz yisroel (and jerushalaim) is -chas vecholilo- “golus”, beware of what you write about eretz yisroel! Your quote from eicha makes no sense-as per your interpretation- which is what,BTW?

    #967006

    Health
    Participant

    ROB -“health: I have no idea what your mention of the well known ohr someach does. I fulle endorse what he wrote, that one who thinks that the center of the world is not jerushalaim (alluding to German Reform Judiasm)will suffer greatly (in reference to the tochacho).”

    Simple, I said if you do live in Berlin, perhaps you consider it Yerushalyim and then I guess the words of the OS would apply to you.

    “As far as your other assertion, that Eretz yisroel (and jerushalaim) is -chas vecholilo- “golus”, beware of what you write about eretz yisroel! Your quote from eicha makes no sense-as per your interpretation- which is what,BTW?”

    Also simple. The Novi says everywhere is Golus and wants it to end, which includes EY & Yerushalyim, not like your posts.

    #967007

    truthsharer
    Member

    Again, just because they said it doesn’t make it true.

    #967008

    Josh31
    Participant

    I think I know where this ongoing hatred of Zionism comes from:

    In Joel 2:20, “and the tzafoni I will drive away from you” which the Gemara in the 5th chapter of Succah 52A says refers to the evil inclination, with tzafoni referring to the hidden evil inclination inside man.

    Their version has the “fey” of tzafoni replaced with a “yud”.

    #967009

    HaKatan
    Participant

    Thank you, toi.

    “truthsharer”:

    Perhaps your screen name would be better written “wishsharer”.

    Are you calling Rav Chaim Brisker a liar?

    That wouldn’t be a very bright thing to do since, aside for the obvious reasons, he lived there and then and knew from personal experience both pre-1948 and post-1948 what Zionism was and is.

    Historical fact and current events happenings are not subject to your or anyone else’s denials. Zionism was and is what it was and is: shmad. This is still true even though their methods of shmad have changed since Yaldei Tehran, etc. Zionism was and is shmad.

    If you’re better informed than Rav Chaim Brisker (pre-1948 and post-1948) and Rav Elchonon (pre-1948 only, HY”D), who lived there and then, please provide a comparable source that disagrees with them and with, lihavdil, the Zionists themselves. This is not a secret.

    In other words, if you claim Rav Chaim’s words (and history and current events) are not true, then please provide a reliable same-level source who contradicts those facts.

    #967010

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    eMatter of historical fact: R’ Chaim Brisker zt”l was niftar in 1918.

    His so, the Brisker Rav (R’ Velvel) lived in EY post – medinah.

    #967011

    Naftush
    Member

    Apologies to HaKatan: I’ve accused you of basing your worldview on “the Brisker Rov said” with no further proof, nuance, or reasoning needed. Was I ever wrong! It’s “the Brisker Rov said” *and *”the Brisker Rov’s son said”.

    Now, is all learning at the Brisker yeshiva done by parroting and invective? Was it done that way at Sinai, too?

    #967012

    HaKatan
    Participant

    I’m sorry for writing the wrong name, and I thank you all for pointing out my mistake.

    But the point remains.

    And the Zionists still have no answers.

    #967013

    Daas2
    Member

    First of all, seeing as it is almost tisha bi’av I think we should try to drop the name-calling and sarcasm in favor of a calmer, more reasonable debate.

    Josh31:

    “Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.”

    Sorry, but we’re not gonna change our opinions on what is right and what is wrong just so that people will like us more. We believe in doing what’s right, not what’s popular.

    lesschumras:

    “I was just pointing out to Hakatan that Zionism was far from the only, let alone the largest. cause of shmad”

    How does that diminish the shmad that it did cause?

    #967014

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Daas2: with great respect to you, there issuch a thing as ‘eis laasos lashme, heferu torusecho” in special times.

    As far as the so-called shmad of the Zionists- clearly, there is no excuse for it- but retreating from the field of battle and abandoning the rest of klal yisroel is not what the response should be.

    #967015

    About Time
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin

    for your own benefit

    desist and surrender without honor

    or

    based on dozens of past comments which will displayed

    a.your hypocritical one thing on one post another on the next

    b.your support for whim and movement that goes against Torah

    ,when confronted your sheepish retreats

    c..your appalling ignorance,

    you will be turned into a mockery

    waiting at the control pad

    #967016

    About Time
    Participant

    “Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.”

    Good ,let’s go through them one by one

    some admitted in quotes they had been naive

    some were lightweights

    some were (as you fraudently are aware)decades prior

    virtually everyone of them militantly opposed ,in the forms that existed then,what passes as centrist(a meaningless term) zionism of today, or it’s diguises,

    or Tel Aviv’ism

    #967017

    About Time
    Participant

    “Zionists had their own gedolim- Rav Kook, Rav YY Reines, Rav Tzvi Hirsch Kalischer, Rav Yosef Alkalai, Rav Aharon Soloveitchik, Rav Yosef Soloveitchik, Rav Menachem Mendel Kasher, Rav Benzion Uziel, Rav Haim David haLevi, etc.”

    Good ,let’s go through them one by one

    (if the moderators permit)

    some admitted in quotes they had been naive

    some were lightweights

    some were (as you fraudently are aware)decades prior

    virtually everyone of them militantly opposed ,in the forms that existed then,what passes as centrist(a meaningless term) zionism of today, or it’s diguises,

    or Tel Aviv’ism

    #967018

    About Time
    Participant

    ‘Present day hatred of Zionism is not going to flip a single Jew from non observance to observance. It only creates a Mechitatz Barzel – a steel wall of hatred that blocks secular Israelis from possibly returning to observance.’

    when and if done coherently,

    au contrarie

    Proof : scores of isrealis who become more religious and traditional,

    when in chutz la’aretz

    (As one explained:he realized to his surprise, Religious people

    probably better off out of the state)

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