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How can we identify the modern-day eruv rav and how should they be dealt with?
Why do you assume there is a modern day equivalent?
Too many things to think about in one day… Who wears the pants.. How to disciple.. Women and herring(ew).. A chairs jewelry joining a minion.. My think circuits are being maxed out!!!
Whoever we disagree with. We deal with them by disagreeing and showing that they are wrong.
The eruv rav is the rav hamachsir of the eruv.
It’s not up to us to identify the eruv rav. We have to do what we have to do. Tomim tihye…
Unless you are talking about Avi K’s eruv rav.
When I was learning for smicha we went to a slaughter house to watch shechita. The rav was an old man, he laughed at us and called us the “erev” rav.
Joseph,
How can we identify the modern-day eruv rav
1. The eruv rav may sometimes be seen along the edges of a frum community on Fridays.
2. If a particular rav declares “down!” on Friday before Shabbos, and then nobody carries anything outside on Shabbos, you’ve found your man.
and how should they be dealt with?
I think they like donations. Eruv repairs can be costly.
Avram, do the repair people accept pledges?
Avi K,
do the repair people accept pledges?
Maybe if they’re done with the little fold-up tabs.
corny
Joseph,
Why do always feel the need to put down others and try to raise yourself?
I like Joseph he is funny and adds some spice
“Do you always disagree with the seforim hakedoshim?”
Was that directed to me?
If yes, your deflection to hide your insecurities won’t work on me. Whenever your flaws are pointed out, you make it sound like you defending the faith (when in all truth you’re just blowing smoke).
If that was not directed to me, then please ignore the above.
BTW, if you are really referencing sefarim hakedoshim, then consult them for your question about OO and erev rav.
Rav Lior quoted Rav Kook as saying that the Erev Rav are Jews who support our enemies. This would definitely fit the NK and their fellow travelers. According to Rav Yehuda Ben-Yishai they are those who doubt Hashem’s ability to bring about the Geula. There are also the Spies, whose sin the Gra (quoted in “Kol HaTor” and “Em HaBanim Semeicha”) says will infect many who who hold on to the Tora. They oppose yishuv EY – many times for “frum” reasons. See Baal HaTanya, Likutei Tora on parashat Shelach 38b:
??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????, ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ?? “????? ??????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?????”. “?? ???? ??? ??????, ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????. ??? ????? ??”? (???? ??, ?) ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????. ?????: ??? ????? ???????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??”. ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ????.
“The OO are apikorsum.”
That is well known. What are you gaining from repeating the obvious? What’s your need?
I read it the first time. My point is that you seem all too eager to put down others.
There are plenty of mitzvot we can do.
I’d rather learn. You’d rather deride others.
Joseph, the Gr”a talks about who the Erev Rav are and how to identify them. See Even Sheleima (in the new editions I think it’s perek 11. In the old ones it’s from siman 152 and onwards. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49285&hilite=77bc56fa-eef6-4eee-9fc2-c8a336c15a15&st=%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%91+%D7%A8%D7%91&pgnum=65)
To summarise he says there are five types:
Ba’alei machlokes and loshon hora
Ba’alei taavah
People whose insides don’t match their outsides (fakers)
Those who chase after kavod
Those who chase after money.
Did you overlook the Chofetz Chaim saying it is a “mitzvah” to put down apikorsum? Do you not want to get as many mitzvos as possible?
Since many Jews would regard me as an apikorus, do I get a mitzvah for putting myself down?
The Wolf
You don’t really believe yourself to be an apikorus, so it wouldn’t count.
You don’t really believe yourself to be an apikorus, so it wouldn’t count.
Why should my feelings count?
Let’s put it this way… if I were eating treif, would it make a difference if I believed that pig was kosher? Yes, it might matter with regard to my degree of culpability, but it doesn’t change the fact that, regardless of my belief, I ate non-kosher.
Whether *I believe* I’m an apikorus or not is not the issue. If I am, then, according to Joseph, there is a mitzvah to bash me. If not, then there isn’t.
The Wolf
Anyways, since you are a tzadik, Wolf,
I am not a tzaddik and I’ll thank you not to make judgments about me without knowing me.
The Wolf
Whether or not you believe yourself to be an apikorus does not make you more or less of an apikorus, but it affects your kavanah for the mitzvah.
Wait, I think that OO is wrong, but why are they apikorsim? Do they deny the Rambam’s 13 principles?
Sam: “Whoever we disagree with”
Pretty much, unfortunately.
Wolf: “Why should my feelings count?” They do. In the same way that a Jew living in Communist Russia who is kept from the fact that he’s a Jew is not culpable like you or me. One who is raised into the Conservative or Reform movements might have a similar status, so why shouldn’t it apply to those raised in the OO? (I’m aware the “raised in the OO” group does not yet exist) Should we bash the people who don’t know better? Absolutely not! Should we bash the people who are misleading others and making sure they don’t know better? Yes, so to speak, they’re putting a stumbling block before the blind. If you and Joseph met at the right wording, I believe you would find that you and he are not so much in disagreement within this thread.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman stated that the Zionists are the erev rav of today, and the Gra seems to have predicted the same.
Rav Steinman is quoted as having said the same, too.
Matan1:
Is that not obvious, as noted by Rav Aharon Feldman and others?
Here are some quotes from Rav Aharon Feldman on this topic:
And:
Rav Chaim Brisker famously said that a nebbich apikoros is still an apikoros . On the other hand, Rav Gustman said that today’s non-believers are ignoramuses not apikorim. In Vilna the apikorsim knew all of Shas. I am willing to judge the OOs favorably and think that they are tinnokot shenishbu regarding hashkafa and/or think (albeit erroneously IMHO) that they are saving what they can among certain types of lost sheep.
HaKatan: Several of the leaders certainly are Apikorsim. I do not know about the average OO Jew “on the ground”, though.
If you see Jews who cause harm to other Jews or Eretz Yisroel, the odds are great that they are Eirev Rav.
I seriously doubt that it’s correct to say that just because someone isn’t Frum, they are Eirev Rav. Not everyone was fortunate to have grown up in a Jewish environment and have a proper Jewish education.
If you want to get an example of the modern day Eirev Rav, look no further than those sickos in NK who go to Iran, or those that protest in the Streets of Eisav against Israel.
It’s fine to oppose the Israeli government, but it is not fine to cause harm to Jewish living in Eretz Yisroel.
The OO hasn’t been around long enough for its members to plead ignorance. One could argue that were the Reform movement not to exist, all the Reform Jews would just be chilonim anyway. Arguably, the Open Orthodoxy is worse than the Reform movement since it takes otherwise frum yidden and takes them off the derech, while all the Reform movement did was give another name by which chilonim refer to themselves.
Rav Lior quoted Rav Kook as saying that the Erev Rav are Jews who support our enemies. This would definitely fit the NK and their fellow travelers.
As I’ve noted in the past, the NK are really small potatoes. They have not done anything impactful other than have others scoff at their nonsense. Eruv Rav, doubtful, misguided and foolish, absolutely.
However, when Avi Weiss writes articles in the NYT harmful to yiddishkeit in EY, he falls under the R Kooks description of Erev Rav. When other Rabbits of the OO movement hold press conferences and join in Court Cases which are designed specifically to harm Orthodox Jews, they meet the description of Eruv Rav.
“Rav Lior quoted Rav Kook as saying that the Erev Rav are Jews who support our enemies. This would definitely fit the NK and their fellow travelers.”
However, people like Charlie Hall believe that Avi Weiss and his cohorts at YCT and Yeshivas Mahrat are Geeonei olam. He goes to their talmud sermons regularly.
Those pesky OO rabbits are always interrupting court cases with their fluffy ears and carrots.
Why bring Charlie Hall into this? We all know about his affiliations. At times it does seem like he posts comments that he knows will bother those of us who denounce the OO (i.e. all of us), but I don’t think invoking his name was relevant to this thread.
My last comment should have included the following quote
“On the other hand, Rav Gustman said that today’s non-believers are ignoramuses not apikorim. In Vilna the apikorsim knew all of Shas. I am willing to judge the OOs favorably and think that they are tinnokot shenishbu regarding hashkafa and/or think”
In lieu of the above question of the OP, who would be the Misyavnim of today?
Nishtdayngesheft, I hope that that op-ed was just a fit of pique due to his flap with the Chief Rabbinate and that he since has regretted it. While we both have since moved on, when I knew him thirty years ago he had strong criticisms of Conservative and Reform. I also had the impression that early on he decided to play the “good cop” in order to attract BTs and keep marginal FFBs from going completely OTD. In fact, he once commented that meany of those who started in HIR would no longer daven there – and he did not seem upset about it.
However, I do think that the criticism should continue. Hopefully it will do for OO what the Mitnagdim did for the Chassidim (“Mekor Baruch” in the name of the Tzemach Tzedek).
Joseph,
Several months ago, Avi Weiss came to my hick town. Some one I know wanted to go, so I told them what I thought of him. I pointed out how he publicly derided the Chief Rabbinate of Israel in a NY Times article which he wrote a couple years ago.
Long story short, it seems to me that ????? ?????? ??????? means it’s a mitzvah kiyumit. I spoke up when I had the opportunity.
If you want to say it’s a Mitzvah Chiyuvit, you should get a big sign and protest in front of Weiss’ shul. Jump up and down screaming “Apikorus”. (just kidding – please do something better with you time)
Hopefully it will do for OO what the Mitnagdim did for the Chassidim (“Mekor Baruch” in the name of the Tzemach Tzedek).
That comparison sounds highly insulting to the Chassidim.
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