The Eruv Rav

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  • #1162972

    Rabbi Wallerstein discusses the eruv rav being footsteps. He gives the sources and reasoning. I don’t think it was his idea personally.

    #1162973
    Avi K
    Participant

    The footsteps are from all the walking to check the eruv.

    #1162974

    I Googled “eruv rav.”

    995 results, and “Did you mean: ‘erev rav’ ,” which gets 52,600 results.

    #1162975
    Avi K
    Participant

    Comlink, the early Chassidim were guilty of many excesses. Sefer Yaakov Yosef denigrates talmidei chachamim in the most extreme language. One “rebbe” drank in public in the middle of Yom Kippur claiming that he saw through ruach hakodesh that the gates of Heaven had already closed. They ignored the zemanei tefilla. For these and other deviations the Gra put them in cherem. The Baal HaTanya and others after him brought back over the line. BTW, Rav Kook says that this is the function of opposition to new movements in general.

    #1162976
    Geordie613
    Participant

    Rabbi Wallerstein’s reasoning, if I’ve got this right, is because they encourage people to leave yiddishkeit.

    His shiur last week (heard on Torah Anytime) dealt with the signs of Moshiach’s arrival from the gemora at the end of Sotah. He said that the Footsteps people didn’t realise that Ikvesah d’Meshicha is translated as Footsteps of Moshiach.

    #1162977

    They don’t “encourage people to leave yiddishkeit.”

    The people who come to them have already left.

    #1162978
    Joseph
    Participant

    They certainly do encourage people to leave yiddishkeit.

    #1162979

    They don’t “encourage people to leave yiddishkeit.”

    The people who come to them have already left.

    That is not true. Their own promotional material says they deal with people who haven’t yet left.

    #1162980

    They may deal with people who have not yet physically left their families and communities. But those people have already left Yiddishkeit itself.

    #1162981

    Not according to their own claims (no matter how many times you say it).

    #1162982
    apushatayid
    Participant

    In my neighborhood, the Eruv Rav, is the Rav who permits the use of the Eruv on shabbos.

    #1162983

    From their website:

    “Whether you are considering leaving the ultra-Orthodox community or have already begun a new life in the secular world, there is a place for you at Footsteps. We offer programming and resources for people at any stage of the journey. We also welcome formerly ultra-Orthodox people who would like to help others considering or actively making the transition.”

    “Any stage of the journey” implies that the person has already begun the journey. They aren’t actively recruiting people who are still frum.

    #1162984

    Whether you are considering leaving the

    Sounds like this guy hasn’t gone anywhere yet…

    #1162985

    Leaving the COMMUNITY. Not leaving FRUMKEIT. He’s already left frumkeit, he’s pondering whether or not to actually get out of the community itself. There are actually lots of people who put on the act for the sake of their family/shidduchim/etc, but are mechallel just about everything in private.

    #1162986

    That’s one way to read it, perhaps. I don’t read it that way at all.

    #1162987
    Abba_S
    Participant

    I thought the Eruv Rav were Egyptian that wanted to be like Jews but weren’t. Similar to some of the Messianic Jews who really aren’t Jewish. They were blamed for causing the plagues that killed the Jews in the desert after leaving Eygpt.

    I don’t understand why Yeshiva World is publicizing an organization that teaches Frum Jews HOW TO GO OFF THE DERECH. Many people are depressed but are you allowed to help them commit suicide? I think it’s still against the law and you could go to jail for it. What is the difference between taking a life and taking a soul?

    #1162988

    Leaving the COMMUNITY. Not leaving FRUMKEIT.

    It is very odd that you would read it that way.

    You do know that they have some kosher food at their events, don’t you? Strange that they would offer kosher food if they only deal with people who don’t keep anything, don’t you think?

    Another quote: “People who come to Footsteps generally come because they are questioning the beliefs or practices they grew up with and they are looking for a space to explore and to connect with others.”

    It doesn’t say they have given up their beliefs and practices, it says they’re questioning them.

    You can choose to spin that as well if you’d like, but they’re not even claiming what you are.

    #1162989

    DaasYochid, do you think there’s anyone in that organization whose job is to convince people to give up their beliefs or practices? They want to give people the ability to do whatever they choose to (which is why they have kosher food – in case someone wants that). This might involve convincing people that they are able to give them up, but not that they should.

    #1162990
    Avi K
    Participant

    Abba, the erev rav (please try and get this right – as I have previously posted the eruv rav is the rav hamachshir of the eruv) were a mixed group of slaves from various nations. The Messianic Jews are by and large people who were born Jewish and practice a hybrid of Judaism and Xtianity, much like the minim in Chazal’s time.

    #1162991

    Whatever excesses the early chassidim may have been guilty of, the movement was started by a tzaddik, and to lead to its members being better Orthodox Jews, not to be separate from Orthodox Jewry.

    #1162992
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Avi: I am not sure they were slaves, just that they came from Egypt when the Jews left Egypt. These were people who were disillusioned with the pagan religion and since the Egyptian economy was in shambles they followed the Jews for a better life.

    As to Messianic Jews being mostly people born Jewish, I disagree. Even in Reform Judaism many of their “Rabbis” are converts from other religions. While many may have Jewish sounding names in the NYC area the vast majority are from rural USA and are non jews who are disillusion with their current religion. Follow the money and you will find the messianic temples are supported from middle america non jewish communities.

    It is similar to Communism, when it first started in Russia it was mostly Jews. Are Communist Jewish of course not. In the late 1800 thousand of Frum Jews who were studying in Bais Medrash upon hearing a communist or socialism lecture forsook the Torah.

    #1162993
    Avi K
    Participant

    Comlink, the Chassidic movement started as a populist movement that told those who were marginalized because of their ignorance that they could be good Jews even if they were unlearned. Ironically it became highly stratified in a way that the yeshiva world had never been. For all its shortcomings (and it has many), OO, IMHO, is trying also trying to keep marginalized Jews from going completely OTD. However, like the Chassidic movement it needs an opposition to show it where it is going too far. Hopefully it will merit a leader who will realize this.

    Abba, I do not have the exact citation right now but I believe that Chazal say that they were slaves from other nations who saw an opportunity to break free. Why should Egyptians who were disillusioned with paganism leave to join another religion and immediately try to undermine it?

    #1162994
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Think about the actions of the Erev Rav in the Midbar and see who in our generation, both Frum and not, that emulate them.

    #1162995

    I didn’t say that they only deal with people who don’t keep anything at all.

    I did say that they don’t try to push people away from frumkeit. They don’t do active recruiting. They are there as a resource for those who have already begun to reject the lifestyles they grew up with– in part or all. They use words like “questioning,” “journey,” and “transition” because you can’t throw off everything overnight. But again, the organization is there to support them, no matter which direction they choose to go. They don’t proselytize.

    #1162996
    Joseph
    Participant

    They certainly do try to push people away from frumkeit. You clearly haven’t heard quite a number of their speakers at their meetings. And their current members frequently try to recruit friends of theirs to join.

    #1162997
    Geordie613
    Participant

    Thank you Joseph.

    I think the point is that the modern erev rav is people who actively discourage shemiras hamitzvos. What we need to do is encourage these people and bring them back INTO the fold.

    I don’t think erev rav needs to be genetically related to the original Egyptian erev rav.

    #1162998

    Comlink-X, putting aside reports contrary to your and Jfem’s assumptions/assertions, do you really think it’s reasonable that an organization which trumpets the “freedom” their members find, and run by OTD people, is not by its very nature going to bring people further from Yiddiskeit? Of course it is bringing people further from Yiddiskeit, b’li shum safek.

    #1162999
    Abba_S
    Participant

    The New Erev Rav could also include Meretz, Yesh Atid and the Israeli Government who are trying to draft the Yeshiva students. The Erev Rav from the desert and their children have all been lost among the nations.

    #1163000

    “Footsteps does not get people further away from Yiddishkeit” is a

    statement I cannot make. But anyone who comes into contact with them

    does so because they want to leave the community, or think they might

    want to. (Also, isn’t any OTD person likely to encourage others who

    are considering leaving, if they are happy with their own decision?)

    #1163001
    Avi K
    Participant

    Abba,

    1. There is a mitzva to join the IDF as I have posted many times.

    2. Yesh Atid does not want to draft those who are really

    learning. However, there are many guys who are registered but are just wasting time as they are not suited for full-time life-long learning. They should be drafted and later put in professional training programs. This will not only alleviate the tremendous cycle of poverty in the Chareidi sector but allow for real learners to receive decent stipends. Not to mention the fact that with the growth of the Chareidi sector as a percentage of the general population Israel cannot afford a blanket exemption from military service and work.

    3. IMHO, the new erev rav are the post-Zionists and anti-Zionists of all stripes. They are doing exactly what the old ones did.

    #1163002
    Mammele
    Participant

    Comlink: have you never heard the adage “misery loves company”? Convincing others to join you does not correlate to being happy, many just want one more person they relate to, to hang out with and do who knows what.

    #1163003

    I don’t think the saying means that if you’re miserable in your

    situation, you’re likely to try to get others into it as well.

    #1163004
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Avi K: Yeh Atid hates the Charadis, when they were in the government the cut aid to them and attempted to draft their children.Whatis needed is trust

    The Govt.’s thought that if they would deny them the ability to work unless they join the army, it would encourage them to join. The problem is that while the IDF claims that it doesn’t discriminate soldiers outside the Charadi units have problems. For example, female singing and kosherous has been a big problem. Until they start relieving officer who allow it you wouldn’t get them to join.

    Affirmative Action similar to the USA is needed to increase Haradi participation in the workforce. If the Charadis are 10% of the IDF then they should have the same percentage in the workforce. So for example, if Hebrew University doesn’t have that percentage they are penalized.

    #1163005
    Avi K
    Participant

    Abba,

    1. On the contrary, they want to break the cycle of Chareidi poverty.

    2. Unfortunately, Affirmative Action exists in government jobs. It is called “reparatory discrimination”. However, all discrimination is destructive. Why should someone who was never guilty of discrimination have to suffer? Moreover, the fact that there is a certain percentage is the population does not mean that they are the same percentage of qualified people. In fact, the Chareidi sector is less qualified because of the stubborn refusal to study secular subjects, especially Math, Science and Engish (needed in Hi-Tech). Unfortunately, the Chareidi “leadership” learned from the socialists that he way to keep people voting for the party is to keep them dependent.

    #1163006
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Isn’t the Eruv Rav the one who goes around every week checking to make sure the Eruv is kosher? 🙂 (Rimshot)

    The Wolf

    #1163007
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Wolf: They rip down the erev by the park a couple of weeks ago knocking out both the Crown Heights & Park Slopes Erevs and although they got a video and the hate crime unit is investigating there have been no arrests.

    Avi: The Charadi poverty is due to the govt. which wouldn’t allow them to work unless they go into the army. They make a teenager swear that he is going to learn and then government wouldn’t let him work until he is 28, by which time it doesn’t pay to work as he is to deep in poverty.

    The Govt has to win the hearts and mind of the charadim otherwise they will lose as the Russians and Americans did in Afghanistan. The govt. must find jobs for each and every IDF charadi veteran in their profession and a home to live in.

    As far as them needing Math Science & English,. They do have a charadi unit in the cyber warfare unit 8200 so I guess you don’t need these classes. Likewise in sniper school which requires trigonometry Charadi soldiers didn’t seem to have problems with their marksmanship.

    Failure to due this will result in poverty and more power to the Party Bosses.

    #1163008
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: They rip down the erev by the park a couple of weeks ago knocking out both the Crown Heights & Park Slopes Erevs and although they got a video and the hate crime unit is investigating there have been no arrests.

    You do understand that my answer was a joke, right? You did see the smiley and the rimshot, right? A play on the words Eruv Rav…

    The Wolf

    #1163010
    Avi K
    Participant

    Abba, if they are ignorant of secular subjects about the only jobs they can get is flipping burgers. If someone is not learning at a very high level where he has a Torah obligation to go into the IDF according to his physical abilities and intellectual talents (e.g. some people can go into Intelligence and learn computer technology while they are at it). Someone who is has an obligation to pass on his Torah. I would have these guys give shiurim to the solders. At the very least they should dedicate their learning to the success and well-being of the soldiers. Of course, it could be that they do not really believe that their learning has supernatural powers. This was evident during the first Gulf War when chutznikim stormed the airports for flights back to the Galut. It was proven again when missiles fell on the South and Chariedi (but not RZ) yeshivot relocated.

    #1163011

    Torah obligation to go into the IDF

    Please provide a source for that.

    #1163012
    Avi K
    Participant

    Rambam Hilchot Melachim

    5:1

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    7:4

    ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??”? ???????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????:

    #1367769

    If you forget to make an Eruv Tavshilin, you can rely on the Eruv Rav, but only once.

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