The Five Thousand Dollar Dress

I don’t think people nowadays are so easy to buy – they value their own values and being able to live as they choose more than having another diamond ring

Orrrrr… the not-tznius clothes make them feel prettier, but a bigger clothing budget for more appropriate clothes and expensive jewelry might make them more confident and be seen as a good trade.

gavriel – I suspect you’re right. In any case, I think that this conversation has to come after other conversations, or it will sound condescending. (And it could be that was the Rav’s intention).

First he has to approach her and let her know that her dress bothers him (“I message” not “You message”). And he should make sure to point out why he thinks that it may not be appropriate, citing halachic sources. Then, if she is still having a hard time with it, maybe he can approach her again, and say, “I know this is hard for you, but I am very bothered by your dress. Would it make it easier for you if I bought you a diamond ring in exchange?”

What if she says “No thank you, I am the primary income earner in this household because you learn instead of working, and if I wanted a diamond ring, I’d have bought one.”?

Joseph – it’s not so simple – I think she can choose to not be supported by him in exchange for keeping the money she makes. I don’t know if it’s generally a good idea or not, but it could be in certain cases.

“Look my dear Chanaleh, I want to make a deal with you. If you’ll take this dress that you have, and sew on a little more cloth on the sleeves, or make the neckline a little higher, I’m going to buy you a diamond ring.”

I would be very offended if dh spoke to me that way.
Am I the only married woman who feels that way?
Syag, are you around? anybody?
I do seem to remember something about a husband having an obligation to be very niz’har in the kavod of his wife. The quoted doesn’t seem to follow that advice.

Correct me if I’m wrong Joseph, but I think you are a man.
If you’re blessed with a wife, maybe you’d like to ask her.

What did you have to buy her to get her to agree with you?

Thanks for asking your wife, Joseph.
And thanks for answering my question, Syag.

DY – lol

Golfer: “I would be very offended if dh spoke to me that way.
Am I the only married woman who feels that way?”

I’m not married, but did you see my post, and how I rephrased things? It’s true that personally, I would probably still be offended by the diamond ring thing, but then again, I’m totally not that type, and I assume we’re talking about a very different type of person than me, so I can’t really say how she would feel.

I guess it depends on the type of person and how it’s said.

If you really care about your wife, instead of buying her something that is just pretty but not useful like an expensive diamond ring, you should let her wear CZ jewelry and as a gift buy her a slave to help with the sewing and housework. Or pay to have all her dresses custom sewn to tznius standards.

Joseph: I did and she agrees with what I wrote.

According to your belief system, a woman must agree with everything her husband thinks, so this doesn’t prove anything.

“Lilmod, under Jewish law it is rare for a wife to have money to purchase a car. ”

She can sell the diamond ring and buy a car with it.

Golfer – thanks for all the compliments, but I suspect that we are actually talking about different posts!! 🙂

That’s what happens when posts are posted out of order!
I have a feeling that you thought I was referring to the post (#3846) (that seemed to) immediately proceed the one in which I asked if you saw my post (3833). That post (3846) was actually written after 3833, so it was not the one I was referring to. I was referring to a post much higher up that had been written a day or two before.

Whatever it is, you have to be smart when dealing with other people.

I have a neighbor who I could see this working for. Personally my husband and I wouldn’t take that approach because in a sensitive topic, you have to be very careful with how you say things or you are less likely to be effective and more likely to be lashed out at.

In this case, the attitude I feel coming across is I am perfect and you need to work on yourself and I’m willing to pay you for it. See how generous I am?

I think this is usually wrong and that’s why I’d find it offensive. As has been brought up before, usually people marry a spouse with a compatible level of yiddishkeit, so if he found her less than tzniusdik look attractive, then he is part of the problem and shouldn’t be playing tzaddik now.

What would be taken much better by me, would be something like, “Chanale, I know when we got married, this is how you dressed and I was fine with that. However, you’ve helped me grow so much that now, your way of dress bothers me. I know it would be hard for you to change so can we make a deal? I will stop watching movies/non Jewish entertainment, or some other comparable kabbala, and you will go shopping, and buy a new tzniusdik wardrobe?

Here I would feel motivated because a) we are in this together and if it gets hard for me, I know he is working hard as well.

B) he is not making himself look good at my expense.

C) I get the zechus of helping him improve as well.

Disclaimer 1: I dress tzniusdik and my husband doesn’t watch movies or sports

Disclaimer 2: HaRav Miller said you have to know who you are talking to so I am not in any way negating what he said, as this is included within that, I am simply giving another approach/example.

I do because all financial brachos are in the merit of the wife, so if you get married and are a mentch of a husband, you have allot more money available to you:):)

For the girls even more, you are the one who effects how much Parnassa is brought down from the spiritual to the physical for the whole family! On another note, once you get married you have a husband to support you and take care of you and buy you things you wouldn’t buy yourself

To be a wife. A woman risks losing much more when she gets married, and a man had only to gain. She’s the one who gets pregnant, she’s the one who is more vulnerable, and she needs her husband’s support and protection. Therefore, under every chuppah the husband had to obligate himself towards her in the kesuba, while she doesn’t write one for him, because she’s already giving him everything by marrying him

@RebYidd23
Buying a Diamond Ring may or may not be a bad financial decision. It depends on the individual, purchase, amount paid, whether bought for investment or jewelry purposes, etc.

In general, the ring one buys for a spouse is not an investment. It is an adornment, not something one expects to sell later at a profit.

That said, my father and grandfather often bought jewelry at distressed prices from customers and clients because they were good investments. Sometimes the pieces went directly into the vault, sometimes spouses were allowed to wear them but with the understanding the pieces were investments and would be sold at a later date.

I can’t hazard a guess how many times over 40 years as a family law attorney a divorcing wife has offered her diamond ring as payment towards her legal fees. I don’t accept them, because a judge could later rule they were marital assets. However, I have been offered some lovely pieces at good prices from estates we have handled. Sometimes, an executor will shop a ring around to 4 or 5 local jewelers and tell me the best price he was offered was $XXXX. I have my estate jeweler look at the piece(s) and tell me if I can make a profit offering 10% more than the best offer. If so, I can have the executor submit the quotes from the jewelers and my 10% overbid to the Probate Judge for approval.

I currently have about 30 good sized stones in the law firm’s vault. With current interest rates so low, these have been good financial investments.

@lilmod olilameid
I’m not telling lofty I’m saying very practical. Let’s say the marriage fails CVS. The man walks out, healthy strong, and now he’s single with no family to support. He’s not lifting, he enjoyed it while it lasted and now he’s free to move on.
Meanwhile the woman is most likely in the midst of a pregnancy/recovering from a birth, has young children dependent on her and can’t work full hours.

Who needs the protection more when they get married?

I’m not talking emotionally, could be hard on anyone, I’m talking about why the chachamim mandated the husband to commit to the wife and not the other way around. Because if either is entering it just for fun, to see if it will last, a woman is much less likely to do that because there are more practical consequences for her…