the force behind charedi incitement

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  • #847087
    Sam2
    Participant

    Longarekel: There is no Issur of sitting on the same side of the bus as a woman. Anyone with a decent knowledge of Halachah knows that. Rav Moshe and the Tzitz Eliezer both have T’shuvos being Mattir sitting actually next to a woman.

    #847088
    jewww
    Member

    Health – ‘Let’s say you’re on a bus in NYC and it’s not that crowded and s/o who is coughing all over the place decides to sit next to you. Let’s say this person doesn’t have TB, just a virus, so you’re life isn’t in danger. But they are coughing and not doing a good job in covering it up. Do you think it’s wrong to ask this person to sit in the back -not near anyone? Do you think it’s wrong if this person was asked and they refused? The same thing here -maybe this women has no clue what an Aveira is, but they know touching a woman is against this person’s religion. So why wouldn’t they want to accomodate him? It’s only because of their hatred towards Frum people and there lack of respect towards the Jewish religion. If anybody would be honest -they would see this is no different than s/o who is coughing away!’

    That’s a poor comparison. The woman who’s coughing believes that she is doing you harm so she will move. The one who is touching you does not believe she is doing you harm so why would she move?

    #847089
    Shrek
    Member

    there are plenty of “chareidi” neighborhoods in Brooklyn where men and women ride buses. No one makes a fuss about the fact that men and women aren’t separated from each other. You know why? Because if a man or woman got up and started insisting on moving people around to suit their religious sensitivities, the driver would toss them off the bus. As it should be. You have personal seating preferences, fine. On your own bus or in your own car or in your house you can segregate to your heart’s content. But a public bus does not need to adjust because you decided to be more religious that G-d himself.

    #847090
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    When you pay a fare on a bus or Subway, the fare you pay does not cover the entire fare (in NYC the Subway Fare covers about 67% of the actual cost of the ride) the government (ie the taxpayers/voters) cover the rest.

    So its just just the Charedi fare payer vs the Chilioni fare payer. Its the taxpayers/voters who are subsidizng the cost of the ride.

    #847091
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gaw- im not sure how familiar you are with the transportation system in yerushalayim, but the bus isnt an occasional expenditure, its a neccesity for daily life, and, as such, cant be compared to a big mac. Boycotts will not work because there is simply no alternative- its not like refusing to by a braun- its like telling you not to shave ever again! (my apologies if you have a beard-you still get the point)

    Way back when, I used to use my feet to go from place to place (I still do sometimes). Unless they are going to the Mall (which real Charaidim don’t go to), and assuming there is food shopping in all neighborhoods (which there is), then a boycott is a viable alternative. It’s not as if they need the bus to get to work, and there is the “Mir” bus for those who need to get to Kollel.

    #847092
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    When you pay a fare on a bus or Subway, the fare you pay does not cover the entire fare (in NYC the Subway Fare covers about 67% of the actual cost of the ride) the government (ie the taxpayers/voters) cover the rest.

    So its just just the Charedi fare payer vs the Chilioni fare payer. Its the taxpayers/voters who are subsidizng the cost of the ride.

    There are two point I want to make here:

    1. Come on, we all know the money is not the issue here. We all know it is an issue of perception of womens inequality, as well as general anti-chareidi sentiment.

    2. I don’t see why it should make a difference to taxpayers subsidizing a fare whether the people sit in a way which makes them comfortable. We are talking about separate bus lines which egged agreed to and which only service chareidi neighborhoods.

    If the moslems were willing to have egged buses in their neighborhoods, and wanted to have a place to store their prayer mats; would you be opposed to that? If they wanted build minarets on the buses? I wouldn’t mind- live and let live.

    The very idea that taxpayers aren’t willing to pay for buses if it is done in a way which accommodates chareidim, is highly bigoted.

    #847093
    Health
    Participant

    jewww -“That’s a poor comparison. The woman who’s coughing believes that she is doing you harm so she will move. The one who is touching you does not believe she is doing you harm so why would she move?”

    Actually -maybe you should read my post before commenting.

    First of all, not everybody understands that coughing can spread disease and that’s why the gov. actually has an education program about how to cover a cough -to inform people. So there would be nothing wrong in asking that person to move.

    Second of all, I posted that the Frei Israelis might not know what an Aveira is, but almost all of them know that this Frum Jew can’t touch women and this is part of his religion. So why not accomodate him? Why tread on someone else’s belief? Would a Chiloni eat a ham sandwich right next to a Muslim? And if they would and the Muslim asks the person to move -would they then say to the Muslim you move if you don’t like it or get off the bus?

    Most Human Beings treat others with some sort of respect, even if they aren’t from the same religion, but for some reason noone has respect for Frum Jews!

    #847094
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The very idea that taxpayers aren’t willing to pay for buses if it is done in a way which accommodates chareidim, is highly bigoted.

    Separation between Church and State. Maybe the Israelis are waking up that it might be a good idea.

    #847095
    Health
    Participant

    Shrek -“there are plenty of “chareidi” neighborhoods in Brooklyn where men and women ride buses. No one makes a fuss about the fact that men and women aren’t separated from each other.”

    Not true; ever hear of the BP to Willi bus?

    “You know why? Because if a man or woman got up and started insisting on moving people around to suit their religious sensitivities, the driver would toss them off the bus.”

    Again not true; on the BP -Willi Bus – no driver ever, until recently, interfered.

    “As it should be. You have personal seating preferences, fine. On your own bus or in your own car or in your house you can segregate to your heart’s content. But a public bus does not need to adjust because you decided to be more religious that G-d himself.”

    Stop thinking we have no rights only if it’s a private vehicle. If it doesn’t inconvience the other passengers terribly, like in these cases -why shouldn’t they move to the back of the bus to accomodate s/o else’s religion?

    #847096
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is plenty of respect for Frum jews. Whom do you think are the main money backers of many frum organizations (Especially Chabad)

    What there is NOT respect for is people who corrupt the torah but taking all pictures of women off newspapers and books, Spitting and cursing at little girls. Throwing Stone etc

    #847097
    Sam2
    Participant

    If only Chareidim rode these buses they should be accommodated. But non-Chareidi women ride the buses too. So what makes the Chareidim stronger that their being insulted “Halachically” is more important than the women being insulted?

    #847098
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If only Chareidim rode these buses they should be accommodated. But non-Chareidi women ride the buses too.

    I think we need to agree on the set of facts which we are working with. Until then, it is a bizarre discussion.

    As I am aware, these buses serve chareidi neighborhoods almost exclusively, and there are always other options. The lady who made herself famous a couple weeks ago was doing it b’davka to make a story.

    So what makes the Chareidim stronger that their being insulted “Halachically” is more important than the women being insulted?

    It really isn’t. And that is why I would never support their forcing it on all other bus lines. Which they haven’t.

    Also, I’m not really sure any woman was ever actually insulted except because some moron told her that she should feel insulted. Nobody is trying to insult them; they should very easily understand.

    However, I am willing to accept that feeling insulted should still be somewhat respected even when the feeling is illegitimate.

    #847099
    writersoul
    Participant

    What about simply doing what Monsey Trails does and having men on one side of the aisle and women on the other side of the aisle. Very easy, there’s no concept of ‘moving back’ in a negative way, etc.

    Personally, as a ‘spoiled suburban kid’ I barely ever take the bus, but it seems to me that the way things that are gender separated and stuff like that are done is by mutual consent. I know before I buy a ticket on the Monsey Trails that when I get on, I’m going to need to sit on the right-hand side on the bus. If I didn’t want to do that, then I would find some other way to get where I want to go. The difference here, on a public bus, is that unless there is MORE THAN ONE bus, going the same route as the gender-separated one, to give people the option of sitting as a family or something, or it is obvious and known that this is a gender-separated bus (as this one seems to be), it really can’t be sustainable. A non-frum Jewish woman may want to sit with her husband/boyfriend/older son in whatever section of the bus, and I don’t know how the system works in Israel, but it seems as though she has that right, especially if Egged is a city bus service that they’re paying for with their tax dollars/shekels.

    It’s a similar reason (according to this theory which I’m not going to swear to due to possible lack of understanding) that there’s no religion in schools. Everyone, of all different ethnic backgrounds, pays taxes that go to the school. If that’s so, then it’s not fair to force the child of a taxpayer to conform to the religion of a different taxpayer who’s paying the same taxes.

    So Health, sure, go ahead and ask the non-frum lady next to you if she’d mind moving. But it’s quite within her right to refuse without it being called charedi discrimination.

    #847100
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What about simply doing what Monsey Trails does and having men on one side of the aisle and women on the other side of the aisle. Very easy, there’s no concept of ‘moving back’ in a negative way, etc.

    It is harder to do that on a city bus with people always getting on and off.

    Also, the concept of “moving back” is part of the American experience, and does not have any inherently negative connotation in Israel.

    The difference here, on a public bus, is that unless there is MORE THAN ONE bus, going the same route as the gender-separated one, to give people the option of sitting as a family or something, or it is obvious and known that this is a gender-separated bus (as this one seems to be), it really can’t be sustainable.

    It is that way. And anyway, the neighborhoods are segregated by religious affiliation so a non-chareidi has little reason to go there anyway.

    #847101
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    PBA:

    My understanding is that the buses are replacing other buses that would otherwise not be Gender specific. There were non Mehadrin bus lines (and still are) that go to these city pairs. If the mehadrin bus is the next one leaving, why should anyone be forced to wait?

    BB 100a: ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???

    If only you were right and Charaidim and non Charaidim had no interaction whatsoever, both sides would be happier.

    #847102
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is plenty of reason for non-religious to go to Meir Sharim. The neighborhood has sort of cache of a place from another time, sort of a living museum.

    Lots of tourists want to see it

    #847103

    Popa’s got it right as usual.

    It really is quite simple – it shouldn’t need a Popa IQ to get it.

    It does frustrate me why people cannot understand.

    #847104
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just tell us what posek says back of the bus is the Halacha, What Sefer says you must have women at the back of the bus and i dont mean YOUR INTERPRATATION of the Halacha, I mean a direct halacha .

    If you are going to defened this practice please tell us where you got it from.

    #847105
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Popa’s got it right as usual.

    It really is quite simple – it shouldn’t need a Popa IQ to get it.

    It does frustrate me why people cannot understand.

    [email protected]’s got it right as usual.

    It really is quite simple – it shouldn’t need a [email protected] IQ to get it.

    It does frustrate me why people cannot understand.

    Three states for three peoples (Arab, Charaidi & Jewish).

    Vote for me! 🙂

    #847106
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    There is plenty of reason for non-religious to go to Meir Sharim. The neighborhood has sort of cache of a place from another time, sort of a living museum.

    Lots of tourists want to see it

    Please tell me you did not just say that. You view people who are trying to live their lives by themselves as a “museum” which you go to watch and gawk at?

    That is so disgusting I just don’t know what to say.

    Just tell us what posek says back of the bus is the Halacha, What Sefer says you must have women at the back of the bus and i dont mean YOUR INTERPRATATION of the Halacha, I mean a direct halacha .

    If you are going to defened this practice please tell us where you got it from.

    No halacha. I never claimed there was, nor have I seen anyone claiming there was.

    It is a chumrah. Much like any chumrah people do.

    But, there is a halacha that a man is not allowed to derive any sexual pleasure from a woman he is prohibited to, whether by looking, touching, thinking, or otherwise. Why don’t you tell me that you even try to keep that halacha.

    Notably, on multiple websites, I have come across not one person who attempts to keep that halacha, who does not understand why separate seating is a good idea. Why don’t you be the first?

    My understanding is that the buses are replacing other buses that would otherwise not be Gender specific. There were non Mehadrin bus lines (and still are) that go to these city pairs. If the mehadrin bus is the next one leaving, why should anyone be forced to wait?

    Yes, but the people who use those bus lines overwhelmingly want it.

    I don’t get why you think that it is not worth inconveniencing a couple of people a little bit, for something that a lot of people want.

    Besides, it isn’t all that bad to ride a separate bus even if you would otherwise sit not separate. Try it; the seats are the same, it goes the same speed, it costs the same amount.

    #847107
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Please tell me you did not just say that. You view people who are trying to live their lives by themselves as a “museum” which you go to watch and gawk at?

    Museum was the term used by others (see R’ Dovid Landesman’s recent comment on CC). To a large extent, that is exactly what the Charaidim want.

    Yes, but the people who use those bus lines overwhelmingly want it.

    The purpose of law is to protect the minority from the majority. If someone wants to sit mixed, there is no reason why the state can or should enforce separation. (Of course, on a private bus, the owner can do what they want, to the most extent). To have it enforced by violence or the threat thereof is what would be called assault in the USA.

    #847108
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Since its a Chumra only observed by some, Others think its a despicable “custom”

    Since you said its not Halacha, there is no need for those who dont follow this chumra need to belive it in

    Why should those who think its disgusting observe it?

    #847109
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Since its a Chumra only observed by some, Others think its a despicable “custom”

    Yes, but you are being unclear.

    Nobody (should) think that it is a despicable custom in itself. What you mean is that some people don’t believe it is being done for religious reasons, and instead think it is being done to degrade women.

    For obvious reasons, that is an absurd accusation.

    Since you said its not Halacha, there is no need for those who dont follow this chumra need to belive it in

    Certainly. I personally don’t know that I would only take a separate seating bus, even if it was available. I would probably just take the first one that came.

    Why should those who think its disgusting observe it?

    They shouldn’t. They should, however, have enough respect for their fellow people to allow them to do their customs within their own domains.

    #847110
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    anyone heard of the 54 bus in gateshead?

    if gateshead doesn’t need separate gender busses no one else should!

    #847111
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    anyone heard of the 54 bus in gateshead?

    if gateshead doesn’t need separate gender busses no one else should!

    Yes, but you are being very unclear.

    If your point is that therefore you think it is an unnecessary chumrah–that may be a good point, but it is pretty irrelevant, since they do think it is necessary. (Also, is that bus a public British bus? Maybe they can’t get England to agree to it?)

    If your point is that therefore they must really be intending to degrade women, that conclusion is pretty unsupported by the fact that some bus in some English community doesn’t have separate seating.

    #847112
    longarekel
    Member

    Sam2: I did not mean that it is assur for a man to sit next to a woman on a bus. It is muttar as you pointed out. The issurim I was reffering to are the issurim that this practice could lead to when it is done all the time by such a large number of people. It does not take a wild imagination to understand this especially in the frum community where people feel somewhat heimish with each other especially in Eretz Yisrael. This is the reason why they have separate seating in the first place. To do away with this noble practice which reflects the unique kedusha of the chosen nation because other nations(or non-religious jews) disapprove would constitute a chillul hashem. I trust that I have sufficiently clarified my position. Hashem loves this noble practice and it should certainly be continued.

    #847113
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    How do you know “Hashem Loves this practice” did he tell you?

    Maybe Hashem hates this practice because it causes some to hate the torah.

    #847114
    longarekel
    Member

    zahavasdad: yes He told me, and He told you too. Vehiskadishtem, Veheyisem Kedoshim, Kedoshim Tihyu, Viheyisem Li Kedoshim, repeated many times. Hashem Oheiv Tzadikim(tehillim 146). If others hate the beautiful ways of the torah it is their problem, and Hashem hates them for it. Do you want proofs for this too?

    #847115
    ED IT OR
    Participant
    #847116
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to that argument, Hashem loves when Charedim throws stones at people, Hashem loves when Charedim curse and spit at girls and women going to school when Charedim visit Iran and Abdijenad and deny the Holocaust

    #847117
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And hashem hates when Daniel Pearl was killed as a jew

    #847118
    Toi
    Participant

    zdad- the absurdity of your posts warrants that they dont be answered. pba?

    #847119
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    zahavasdad: yes He told me, and He told you too. Vehiskadishtem, Veheyisem Kedoshim, Kedoshim Tihyu, Viheyisem Li Kedoshim, repeated many times. Hashem Oheiv Tzadikim(tehillim 146). If others hate the beautiful ways of the torah it is their problem, and Hashem hates them for it. Do you want proofs for this too?

    It’s right because it is right!

    Now go become a monk and practice full “Kedusha”.

    #847120
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    According to that argument, Hashem loves when Charedim throws stones at people, Hashem loves when Charedim curse and spit at girls and women going to school when Charedim visit Iran and Abdijenad and deny the Holocaust

    I don’t see how it serves your purposes to equate sitting separately on a bus with throwing stones at people.

    I am actually quite amazed that you think they are similar.

    #847121
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am quite amazed that you dont.

    The is a reason why back of the bus really riles up people

    #847122
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If there was a Mehitza in the middle of the bus as opposed to the Back of the bus, you would get a VERY different response

    #847123
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I am quite amazed that you dont.

    The is a reason why back of the bus really riles up people

    If you equate sitting in the back of the bus with having stones thrown at you, I don’t think we have anything to talk about.

    If there was a Mehitza in the middle of the bus as opposed to the Back of the bus, you would get a VERY different response

    That is hogwash. Complete and utter hogwash.

    Also note that Israel never had the Jim Crow experience, thus back of the bus has zero connotation in Israel.

    #847124
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The fact of the matter is I have asked for Proof this is the the halacha and the only answer Ive gotten is

    “Its a Chumra”

    or

    “Hashem Loves this Practice”

    #847125
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And YES I do consider be forced to the back of the bus to be like cursing women and spitting at girls in RMS

    #847126
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    And YES I do consider be forced to the back of the bus to be like cursing women and spitting at girls in RMS

    Well, I can’t help you with that. You’ll need to find intellectual honesty by yourself.

    #847127
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The fact of the matter is I have asked for Proof this is the the halacha and the only answer Ive gotten is

    “Its a Chumra”

    or

    “Hashem Loves this Practice”

    Yes, but you are confusing issues.

    You are asking now what the source is, because you want to make a halachic argument that it is not necessary.

    Earlier you argued that since it is not necessary, the motive must be to degrade women.

    However, your disagreement about the necessity does not make the motive degradation.

    I’m still responding to you in case anyone else is reading this. I think you are so completely bigoted that there is no chance of convincing you. You have stated that you go to meah shearim to gawk at us as if in a museum. You have stated that separate seating is equal to lynching. This is truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. ??? ????? ????? ????.

    ???? ??? ? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ? ????? ??????? ??? ?????

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-popa-dvar-torah

    #847128
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    ???? ??? ? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ? ????? ??????? ??? ?????

    Quaker?

    #847129
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I will give you this, Studying history is frowned upon in Charedi circles and it very well might be lost what back of the bus means .

    However those who have studied history feel very different

    #847130
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I will give you this, Studying history is frowned upon in Charedi circles and it very well might be lost what back of the bus means .

    However those who have studied history feel very different

    Two comments.

    1. I don’t know why you would think Israelis would study American history.

    2. I can pull my own on history with you. And that’s despite spending most of my life learning torah.

    #847131
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I did not say I go to Mear Sharim to gawk of people, I saw PEOPLE go to Mear Shearim to Gawk at people like a Museum. They would not have a sign about Tzniut IN ENGLISH there if this was not the case, I dont think you would see such a sign in Bnei Brak.

    Ive been to Mear Sharim exacly once in my life for about an hour, bought a sefer and left

    I do think its unessary and disgusting (back of the Bus), but I am willing to listen to those who think its proper to give me a HALACHIC argument.

    And there is DEFINATLY a Halacha that if a CHUMRA is considered bad for the torah by the outside world, the CHUMRA might be ASSUR

    #847132
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And you dont think Chilionim study secular American History of the Civil right movement, especially since jews benefited greatly from it

    And the issues in RBS involve Americans who made Aliyah who definatly know about the civil rights movement

    #847133
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I did not say I go to Mear Sharim to gawk of people, I saw PEOPLE go to Mear Shearim to Gawk at people like a Museum.

    I’m glad you are retracting it.

    I do think its unessary and disgusting (back of the Bus), but I am willing to listen to those who think its proper to give me a HALACHIC argument.

    You don’t get it. I don’t want you to agree it is proper. I want you to agree that even if it is not necessary, the people who think it is necessary are not evil.

    You should be able to accept that someone else does a chumrah which you think is unnecessary without thinking they are evil!

    #847134
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I did not say I go to Mear Sharim to gawk of people, I saw PEOPLE go to Mear Shearim to Gawk at people like a Museum.

    There was a typo there, Should have said I SAID people go to Mear Shearim changed the meaning,

    I accept people who accept Chumras are not evil as long as they dont force their views on me and THEIR Chumras dont affect my life.

    If you want to constantly wear a Black Hat, be my guest

    If you want to constantly wear a white shirt, be my guest

    If you wish to avoid Gebroachs I have no problem with that eat all the non-gebrachs you like

    However back of the bus is very different as that affects other people who dont accept this chumras and maybe even be repulsed by it, I dont think anyone is seriously replused by black hats, White shirts or eating gebruckhs

    #847135
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I don’t think he thinks they’re evil. He just thinks they’re wrong and by going about being wrong in an improper way are making a Chillul Hashem, which I guess you could call evil.

    #847136
    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“So what makes the Chareidim stronger that their being insulted “Halachically” is more important than the women being insulted?”

    C’mon. An insult has to be real, not perceived. If they don’t know the reason why they are being asked to sit elsewhere like in the back of the bus -let them ask s/o. They know, but they have No respect for Torah or the people who practice it.

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