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If you think otherwise, then you are in complete denial.
I don’t think anyone argues that.
On the other hand, walking on the street can cause harm as well. So can using cell phones, eating hot dogs, drinking liquor, playing sports, sitting in a chair, flipping pages in a book, etc…
What exactly is your point?
The point is having the internet in the home is akin to leaving a loaded gun on the kitchen counter.
Having the internet in the office, is akin to having a loaded gun on your third shelf.
t.balck, what the heck is the point of your comment? one you are on the internet, if you did not realize! two, no one said that they think otherwise, so you either hear things, or see things, because yous tarted a conversation as if it was going on. the proper way would have been to ask if people think the internet is harmful and why, and maybe what we can do with that. but just blurting statements in argumentative form is ludicrous.
What a funny discution to have on line.
BS”D
Having the internet is the equivalent of having a potentially dangerous power saw in your home. You may actually be a contractor who uses it for parnossoh or you might use such a tool wisely and construct your sukkah. On the other hand you can use it like a schlimazel and cut at all kinds of angles thereby rendering a good piece of wood totally useless, you can R”L cut off a few fingers, or you can really go off the deep end and murder or maim someone with it.
So too the Net – you can use it for parnossoh and even learn online as you listen to kosher music, you can waste time with it, you can burn your neshomo by reading kefira and starting to develop doubts chas vesholom, or you can really reach the lowest depths and become addicted to online gambling or worse R”L.
The solution – just as you would not use that dangerous saw without knowing how to use it (or ever leave it where children could play with it), and just as nowadays the best tools have safety features built in, you need to make sure you are using it only for good and constructive purposes or at least for legitimate reasons such as keeping up with family around the world. Filters are a must, with different settings controlled by an outside party if possible for different members of the family. And if you think you might go overboard, it is best you stay away or not use it without someone else present.
Just me:
EXACTLY.
It makes me giggle when I see all of these people who think they are so holy, decrying the internet – yet they are sitting here arguing on it all day long!
mariner- Please watch your language!
postsemgirl:
Mariner didn’t use any bad words, and apparently the moderator did not think so either. I presume you object to her use of the word “heck.” That is a word that is commonly used to communicate a certain level of frustration/bewildered-ness in lieu of using words that might be considered expletives.
Out of curiosity – how long have you been “post-seminary,” i.e., when did you return from seminary?
illini07,
I have two friends, Reuven and Shimon. Both of them are about the same level religious-wise, with one notable exception. They both still eat treif. In fact neither of them have even given up eating chazar (pork) yet. But the difference between them is if you meet Reuven and ask him where you could get a good dinner, he will tell you to go down the block to Tony’s Pighouse where they have the best bacon in the neighborhood. And he’ll even offer to join you for that juicy dinner.
Shimon on the other hand will only eat pork unseen. If you ask him where to get dinner, he’ll only refer you to a Glatt Kosher establishment, with only the most reliable kosher certification. If you tell him you plan to go to a non-kosher restaurant, he’ll become red in the face and start telling you how much of an aveira that is. He will not give up until he talked you out of eating treif.
Who is right?
A) Reuven – at least he is not a hypocrite.
B) Shimon – at least he knows he is doing wrong.
When you come to Beis Din Shel Maaila, would you rather be in Reuven’s shoes or Shimon’s shoes?
Now change eating port with using the internet.
Zalman a few questions: 1) Where can I get a ggod shtickle chazer? 2) when you eat chazer, do you “mutche die marech fin die beinen?
Zalman:
You analogy is fallacious. Pork is pork, and there is no kosher potential for it, whereas the internet does indeed have kosher uses. In fact, the idea of the internet in and of itself is kosher – what some do with it certainly is not, but in and of itself it is not treif.
illinio7- Why do you want to know?
I guess I am just not used to hearing those words on a daily basis. I guess that would be considered lucky. If those words are considered normal then I am scared to think what will be considered normal in a few years from now.
BS”D
Nice to see that someone still has such a sensitivity for nivul peh. Yasher koiach, Postsemgirl – you are a real dugma chaya!
postsemgirl, calm down, heck is not a bad word. in truth, neither is hell. its a place. technically it does not even fit into words aht are considered curses al pi halacha. the ones that are are ones that are cursing hashem, as in damn, since its really saying damn god, or sh.., which is god is taking a “stool” on me in this situation, etc. you get my point. the word hell, it may not be nice, and some may find it brash, but in essence, its actually fine. but the word heck, that is definitely fine. (moderator, the words used were for learning purposes, and as such should stay).
as for zalman, take your analogy, and put books in it, as all forms of assurey einayim are made into book form, so i guess learning from a book (sefer) would not be permissible. its actually a perfect analogy, as the internet has both, and books have both. thanks zalamn, i no longer have to learn, since you have paskened for all that learning from a sefer is assur.
btw, zalmen, im assuming that one of those friends in your story is actually you, as you are on the internet yourself!
illini07: thanks for the backup, but she is post sem, so she is post brainwashed! its really not her fault.
cantoresq, Was YU matir it?
I see more than a few commentors fall into what the first comment on this thread said.
Zalman:
Nobody is arguing with the first post. The only question is: ok, why are you saying this? What is the chiddush?
Everything is dangerous. I could start a post for every single thing that is dangerous, but you guys probably wouldn’t be too happy about that…
mariner- I was not brainwashed and I was sensitive to these words before I went to seminary.
Postsemgirl, most of us ladies here are also post sem, just a few years (or decades) more than you. So wear your name proudly.
From another postsemgirl
Thank You Tzippi!
“but she is post sem, so she is post brainwashed”
I disagree, 100%.
The “brainwashing” occurs when exposure to secular society sand-blasts away the aidelkeit we leave yeshiva and bais yakov with, and leaves us jaded and insensitized towards inappropriate speech, actions and thoughts.
A sibling of mine once commented after a few months at a secular firm that one of the worst things about it was “when I drop and break something I won’t say a curse, but now I think it”.
P.S. “Heck” is a euphemism for “He**”, and halevai I should be so sensitized as to object to it, but PSG is correct.
While it may be true that Postsemgirl is brainwashed, but your initial premise (all postsem girls are brainwashed) is a fallacy.
Therefore, your statistical syllogism is a hasty generalization, and not necessarily the case
In addition, even if both your premises were correct, you would still face the problem of induction, but I’ll leave that for another time
i can only try, and as i said in a previous post, there is nothing truly wron with hell. it is not a curse against god. it may not be good speech, but then again, neither is saying the word bad, or dumb, or stupid.
Mariner- it might not be a curse but it is nivel peh. I guess everyone is sensitive on their level. I would be scared to know whay you consider bad.
I think you should all give your brain a good washing! Can’t hurt! 🙂
Why does EVERYTHING have to turn into an argument??
i remember a long time ago i was watching a talk show on tv
there was an Orthodox Yid and a goy talking to each other about Judaism.
it came to the topic of Tznius.
the goy was literally laughing at the idea that a womans upper arm and shoulder should be covered. he thought the Jew to be a complete fool.
the Yid tried to explain that the goy had lost his sensitivity to the physical beauty of a woman, by being immersed in an immoral culture all his life.
needless to say neither could convince the other.
The Internet CANNOT cause harm, nor can a power saw. People can cause harm using both of these.
The Internet CANNOT cause harm, nor can a power saw. People can cause harm using both of these.
Right. Poison doesn’t cause harm. And guns don’t cause harm. And drugs don’t cause harm. And power saws can’t cause harm either. It is people who cause the harm.
Actually, ALL these things CAN and DO cause harm. Because people are human (some are evil), and a great deal of the time, human beings do not purposely cause harm with these items. But rather it HAPPENS. To say the internet (and all other harmful items) don’t cause harm, is really silly.
The things are not causing harm. The people are.
Oh, and that comma really doesn’t belong there.
I agree, the use of an internet is something that can cause harm, just like walking on a street. However you can avoid both, by simply not utilizing technology you don’t need. You don’t need a network connection. You also don’t need to walk on a street. Walk on a sidewalk instead.
Seriously though, the arguments or lack thereofs presented in this thread are silly.
Semantics. Borrowed from the gun control argument.
Guns and online access don’t do anything without people, but certainly make it easier for people to do bad things.
How much restriction someone feels should be placed on their access generally determines which words he uses.
B’h I own a gun, chainsaw, miter saw, chop saw,jigsaw, AND the internet. The only harm that it has caused is seeing some really idiotic posts.
B’h I own a gun, chainsaw, miter saw, chop saw,jigsaw, AND the internet. The only harm that it has caused is seeing some really idiotic posts.
My guess is you are much more careful with all those other things you own more than the internet.
“The point is having the internet in the home is akin to leaving a loaded gun on the kitchen counter.”
It is nice to see some sentiment for gun control here in the chatroom.
Hey I saw good results when I decided to use the internet 1 hour less a day. I found I was having problems with it using it at night in particular. So I first decided to not look at it after 8pm every night.
Although initially I found it hard, I was encouraged by the results. Eventually I found that both my Yiras Shomayim and parnossoh increased, and I was then able to increase it – to not look at it after 6pm at night.
If you are able to make a small sacrifice in how much you go online, I believe you should try it, Haboh litoher Masayin lo – if you come for purification you will be helped!
“My guess is you are much more careful with all those other things you own more than the internet. “
Trust789: That is an incorrect statement. All my chainsaws are not locked up and any of my children can start it, if they want to. In addition, if you ever took a gun safety class- given by police officers- one of the things they tell you is to allow your children to hold the gun, help clean it etc. (of-course it is not loaded).
My children do not have internet access. Once they are old enough to use it, I will teach them how to use it responsibly, like a gun.
I have no problem with people restricting their internet access in the way that is right for them. What annoys me is the self righteous holier than thou you must do the same or you are a shaigetz attitude that many people involved in such debates seem to have.
jbaldy22 – touche.
I like cheese.
What’s your favorite?
The internet can definitely cause harm if you drop your computer on your foot.
That’s not the internet, that’s the computer.
No, that’s your clumsiness (l’shitosech).
It’s your clumsiness that caused the harm, but it’s the computer that you dropped on your foot.
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