November 21, 2008 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #627310WolfishMusingsParticipant
SJSinNYC, it’s worth putting a little strain on the country for torah.
It’s very nice of you to be generous with everyone else’s money. Especially the money of non-Jews who have absolutely no obligation to support Torah learning.
The WolfNovember 21, 2008 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #627311zevi8Member
If someone is physically able to work, then they should. It gives jewish people a bad name when all these guys are sitting while their wives work all day [taking care of] 10 babies. Then when they dont have enough money, get welfare, food stamps and other govt. programs. What makes these people different then guys sitting on stoops, collecting welfare checks. Both are not working nor seek work. There is nothing wrong with getting a full time job and having a seder at night or in the morning.November 21, 2008 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #627312AnonymousInactive
Just a word of advice – let’s try to keep this clean or we will have to close this thread. We don’t have the time to delete and moderate countless messages that are inappropriate for this coffee room. Thank you – YWModeratorNovember 21, 2008 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #627315
tb, beautiful analogy.
head, VERY well put (regarding the accuracy of those rags.)
squeak, she is from the traditional oilem where women still follow Chazal’s proscription that noshim not learn Gemora.
Where are all you anti-Torah (i.e. anti-Kollel) guys upset over the minorities leeching off welfare? Are you only opposed to Torah Study?November 21, 2008 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #627316
Joseph, I’m upset about the minorities also, believe me. However, I’m not asked to endorse the fact that they don’t work at all.
YW Editor, I don’t think my comment was inappropriate. The text of the kesubah that we have was written by far greater people than anyone posting here. In it, is says a husband will feed, clothe, and otherwise support his wife. Now, it seems people want the opposite. Let them make a different kesubah for themselves. They’re violating the terms of the one they have.November 21, 2008 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #627317
Modern Lakewood Guy – Maybe the wife is happy to work 3 jobs if it means her husband can learn.
I vote with torahis1.November 21, 2008 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #627318
Joseph – I am against abuse of the welfare system by anyone. This topic happens to be about kollel. But, here is how I think welfare should run:
Everybody has to get a job.The state will run daycare centers so people dont have that as an excuse. THat will open more early childhood jobs. Then, give people jobs – they might be menial and low paid, but they are working. This will cut out all the people who have kids to get money and not have to work. Also, when someone goes out to work, they can be doing something productive for society. More people will be working, more money will be working through the system. Money should only be granted to people who cannot work for REAL reasons (severe disabilities and such). There is no reason for me to pay for ANYONE to not work.November 22, 2008 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #627319
I am a critical reader and I wouldn’t have written the $21 figure if it hadn’t been substantiated from numerous sources. I’ve done my homework. Joseph, if you’re going to call the Washington Post and New York Times “rags” then I wonder what you read. Is a federal source good enough for you? (By the way, these newspapers get their information from Reuters and the Associated Press, which are also highly reputable. Journalistic bias is inescapable, but you highly exaggerate it.)
Since the passage of the Farm Bill, benefits have risen slightly, so you’ll see if you scroll down the page that the average benefit is now $24 per week as opposed to $21. Still, I can’t imagine living on that amount and I don’t think anyone should call it easy until you try it. Again, benefits will vary depending on the situation. I believe the minimum benefit is just $14 while the maximum can be as much as $176. So, head, I’m not surprised that you know people getting more than the average benefit. Also, these are national figures; the statewide figures differ. For example, the average food stamp benefit is Massachusetts is lower than the nationwide average benefit. Maybe in New York it’s higher.November 23, 2008 2:04 am at 2:04 am #627321
When welfare is corrected by the government so that the minorities can’t abuse it, you can start worrying about everyone else. Until such time, every Jew should take as much advantage of the “system” as is done by everyone else. As long as it is legal, use it.November 23, 2008 2:28 am at 2:28 am #627322
Joseph, I feel that anyone abusing the system is stealing from me and all the American people. Just because you CAN do something, doesnt mean you SHOULD. I hate that my taxes are being siphoned off for people “taking advantage of the system.”
Maybe if people had more morals, taxes would be lower.November 23, 2008 2:44 am at 2:44 am #627323cantoresqMember
When welfare is corrected by the government so that the minorities can’t abuse it, you can start worrying about everyone else. Until such time, every Jew should take as much advantage of the “system” as is done by everyone else. As long as it is legal, use it.
Interesting idea. Of course it’s simply a heter to be as bad as the worst of society. What ever happened to aspiring to be a “mamleches Kohanim” an “Am Segulah” and “Goy Kaddosh” as enjoined by the Torah? Joseph you’re suggesting that since the government seems not to pay attention, it’s ok to “steal” benefits from the public. Aside from the moral repugnancy of such an outlook, please explain what appears to be something rather arbitrary and racist in your post. You seem to diffrentiate between abuses perpetratd by “minorities” and those perpetrated by “everyone else.” Why are abuses on the part of “minorities” worse or more odious that those of say . . . Jews? Is Jewish abuse of the system less abusive? Is Jewish absuse of the system less morally reprehensible? Why?November 23, 2008 2:47 am at 2:47 am #627324
ANYONE who abuses the welfare system, does so on the backs of the rest of us who actually work to support our fasmilies. The only difference between the kollel and the minority system abuser, is that the Kollel boy is doing SOMETHING productive with his non-employed time. He isn’t out drinking, doing drugs, shooting pool, messing around with arayos. But the end result in financial terms, is the same. Both sides are living off the hard earnings of the rest of us. For someone who is opposed to working, because it would take him away from Torah study, it would seem to be very hypocritical to be perfectly happy to nonetheless take the FREE money that was earned by someone else’s sweat and effort who realized that earning a living is CRITICAL. If you believe something is intrinsically wrong, you should not allow yourself to benefit from someone else’s “wrongdoing.”November 23, 2008 6:22 am at 6:22 am #627325
someone here mentioned that disagreeing with kollel life in the amount it is happening today would be going against rav ahron kotler. to say such a thing is nonsense. kollel, the way rav ahron restarted it is very similar to what FDR did during the depression with social security. he created a system taht was only supposed to last up to 30 years, to get the ball rolling again, so to speak. unfortunately, like social security, we are keeping kollellim filled way too much now, and the system is going, like social security, bankrupt. it is a poncy scheme, like social security. rav ahron’s idea was to restart torah learning after the churban europe. he did not want thousands upon thousands of men sitting on their tucheses having to survive on their inlaws. i will never accept that, as teh gemora down to some of the latest achronim vehemently opposed making money through learning. teh audacity of people to say that it is better for them to learn then get a job is pompus. a large majority of tanaim and amoroim had jobs, and they were able to raise the dead. when one kollel yungerleit raises a dead person, maybe we can talk about how lumdish he is, and how he needs to be learning as a job. yes, there are many taht we should support, but i think that kicking alot of these people out of kollel, and having them get a job, which is by the way a mitzvoh aseih, and having them be koveiah itim, would allow yeshivaos to give the guys who truly deserve it a much higher salary, so they can live like menchen.
for instatnce: a yeshiva gives the salary of 20 thousand a year to 500 guys. leave one hundred, and watch the number raise to 60 thousand which is a decent salary, one that he can feel proud of, and one we can feel proud to have. this whole notion of the more the merrier is not jewish. many major halacha seforim we use today were penned by someone who had a job.
rambam was a doctor who only took pay from the king. (not from the jews he saw, he felt his parnossah the rebonah shel olam wanted him to have was from the king. he actually gave out sefer harambam for free to any community that wanted it. with the freedom to copy it as needed, since he felt it was what was needed.)
rashab was a banker
rif was supported by a community to write his seforim (which is a job, think artscroll)
ramban was a doctor
chofetz chaim had a store (which failed, i guess he was too honest ;-))November 23, 2008 7:23 am at 7:23 am #627326
cantor, Notice I said LEGAL. As long as an action is LEGAL, i.e. going to Kollel and getting FULL food stamps/WIC/etc. benefits, the Yidden should take no less advantage of it then the non-Jews.November 23, 2008 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #627327yitzy99Member
Oomis 1105 you say that the kollel boy is “doing SOMETHING productive with his non-employed time. He isn’t out drinking, doing drugs, shooting pool, messing around with arayos.” You could have also added that he isn’t out stealing cars, raping, going to Atlantic City, or playing the horses as examples of how he is “doing something productive.” Gee, we all should be proud of the high standards he is setting.November 23, 2008 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #627328
Oomis 1105: “is that the Kollel boy is doing”. in here lies a big problem. he is not a boy, he is a man, who has a wife and maybe kids. he is not being productive. he is being counter productive. the things you mention are destructive, so you can say he is not being destructive, but that does not mean he is being productive. an infant also doesnt do those things, so are you going to now tell me that every 8 month old is a productive part of society.
joseph: you are wrong. the people sitting and learning should not be taking food stamps. we should be paying them more. the only way to do it is to lean out the system. it is way to big and is failing. we did not want to lean it out on our own, so now G-d will do it for us. he is going to make it so that only the people who can afford or really want to learn even through hardship stay. the rest, who are lazy bumsoir mooching off their in-laws, which is alot of them, will leave, since the yeshivos will start paying less (or in-laws will stop supporting), as the economy, and their support crumbles. your comment of
“Heilige Torah!…We need more Yidden learning….We need to encourage yungerleit to sit and learn.” is pure banter. ill agree are 2/3 of this statement. the Torah is heilege and we need more yidden learning Torah. maybe even the third, to encourage yungerleit to actually go to their butei midroshim on time, and not take 1.5-2 hour lunch breaks. but that is not what you meant. you meant we need to get more people in the yeshivos and more people not working. that is a poncy scheme. see, yeshivos do not generate money, they use it. as more people rely on payoffs, more money needs to come in from the top of the pyramid. but.. once the bottom of the pyramid, the yungerleit, overtakes the top, the donors, by too much of a percentile, the pyramid collapses. what we need is more baal habatim being kovei’ah itim.November 23, 2008 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #627329
mariner, You are wrong and Kollel life will continue to grow and prosper. The kollel guy making 20k/year is A LOT more productive than the Goldman Sachs analysts making 600,000/year (the average salary of all — including taking into account the janitors — Goldman Sachs employees.)
And yes my friend, they WILL continue to accept every dollar in available food stamps, etc. And G-d bless them for it. So why are we having this debate? Life goes on.November 23, 2008 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #627330
“joseph: you are wrong.”
“mariner, You are wrong”
That type of talk is not going to get us anywhere and is just childish.
Joseph, as has already been said, just because something is legal does not mean it is morally right. Unfortunately, I believe you are correct when you say that the kollel guys will “continue to accept every dollar in available food stamps.” We do need a certain percentage of Klal Yisrael to be engaged in full-time learning, but a) not every bochur out there should just jump on the bandwagon, and b) Goldman Sachs analysts are productive, just in a different way than kollel guys. Doubtless the latter is a much more fulfilling way to spend one’s time, but there simply aren’t enough resources for everyone to do it. Therefore, if one has the brains and the patience to be a Goldman Sachs analyst, by all means do that and don’t go to kollel- but if you are really dedicated to the cause, donate a good portion of that 600k to the kollel guys. Just as women receive merit and are rewarded for enabling and encouraging their husbands and sons to learn, so too are donors who provide the financial means for this learning to happen. So, spiritually, it’s a win-win all around.November 23, 2008 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #627331
joseph, if you are so keen on people not getting a job, why dont you quit yours and join a kollel? or are you just talking the talk, thinking it makes you more religious?November 23, 2008 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #627332
jf02, You’d make a mighty fine Morah! Please consider the suggestion…
Not every bochor/yungerman currently goes to Kollel. We don’t disagree that its not for EVERYONE. Yet Klal Yisroel does stand to benefit if we can encourage additional kollelleit to join the ranks.
And yes, let them take FULL advantage of any and all LEGAL benefits available (food stamps, etc.), no less than the pruste shikkar goy does. Yidden pay taxes, let yidden enjoy its fruits.November 23, 2008 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #627333
mariner and Yitzy – I might have apepared unclear – I am adamantly opposed to the type of Kollel situation we see today, no ifs, ands, or buts. But when someone was comparing the kollel MEN (you’re right, and I also agree they are not boys, I was just using the expression Kollel Boy), to minorities who take welfare (and even that is a little unfair to say, as there are non-minorities also benefiting from welfare, and I realized that after I posted my last comment), let’s get real and agree that whether or not we feel Kollelism is right for our children, at least they are not out doing horrible things in society either to themselves or to others. At least they are living off welfare BUT they are using the time to learn Torah. I feel safer walking down the street when there are a bunch of Kollel learners walking, then when there are a bunch of non-Jews who can’t hold down a job and don’t want to walking by.November 24, 2008 5:56 am at 5:56 am #627334
oomis1105: sorry to tell you, but census since 1994 all show that whites are the majority of welfare receipients. Whites make up 48 percent of the poor, followed by Blacks, 22 percent, and Hispanics, 22 percent. they actually also come from suburbs, and not from inner cities. i have no clue what you mean by walking down the street who cant hold down jobs or dont want to. besides vagrants, which they have in boro park as well, there is no way on g-ds green earth you can tell a goy who has a job from one who does not. you are just afraid of goyim, which is ok, but be honest. its your right to be afraid of whomever you wish. i disagree with you that it is ok for jews to sit in kollel, when they do not belong there, and a large majority dont.November 24, 2008 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #627335skinnymumMember
Even if a guy is sitting in Kollel and not learning – at least he is in a good environment, not on teh filthy street…..November 24, 2008 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #627336
skinnymum its not one or the other – just because you arent in kollel, doesnt mean you are “on the filthy street.” I would also point out that their stipend from the yeshiva is for learning Torah. People donate money so that others can learn. Not learning is tantamount to stealing!November 24, 2008 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #627337
skinnymum, if a guy is sitting in kollel and isn’t learning, then he’s stealing from the kollel. he gets a check to sit and learn, not stay off the streets.November 24, 2008 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #627338rebetzinParticipant
“Even if a guy is sitting in Kollel and not learning – at least he is in a good environment, not on teh filthy street….. “
Instead, his wife and/or father in law are on the filthy street to support him.November 24, 2008 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #627340tbParticipant
Sorry for backtracking. To SJSin NYC,
“here is the flaw in your logic. What you are saying is that the guy cannot do proper research part time. If he can do part time research, then yes, he should go out and get a job and do research part time. If he cannot, only then should he take services.”
Sure, anyone can do research part time and work part time. So you just pushed off the cure for cancer 50 years because you think he shouldn’t get WIC.
Sure you can work part time and learn part time but you can’t honestly say that the quantity or even quality will be the same as a guy who is learning full time.
Now, I am not saying that that makes the person who is learning full time a better person than the one working/learning. I think there is a big problem that people are unable to seperate the person from the action. This is a problem both with someone who says that the action is bad and therefore the person is bad and with those who say that “we can’t judge the person” and therefore refuse to judge the action. What level a person is on is only known to Hashem who calculates individual growth, background, temperment and nisayon.
THat being said, the ideal in life is to learn and not to work. Working is a necessity and/or Kellala.November 24, 2008 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #627341tbParticipant
“#44 tb – maybe the wife only forces herself to think she is happy to work 3 jobs, because after all that’s what they brainwashed her in seminary.”
So how many people do you know in that situation so you can judge whether or not they are truly happy? Maybe, you can “brainwash” someone into thinking something is right but happiness is an emotion. I don’t think you can brainwash someone into happiness. And if you can does that make them less happy? But perhaps I am not qualified to judge. I only have 2 jobs.November 24, 2008 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #627342
Wow, much has been said over the weekend.
Joseph said: “cantor, Notice I said LEGAL. As long as an action is LEGAL, i.e. going to Kollel and getting FULL food stamps/WIC/etc. benefits, the Yidden should take no less advantage of it then the non-Jews.”
Agreed, but those who do take illegally (a significant minority, even if it is only a handful) give a shem ra to the remainder.
The bigger money issue is not MOFES, but my Tzedaka money going to someone who can’t learn up to the workingman’s toenails, because the workingman decides to be responsible and support his family (like the Kesubah states (good point Feif Un)) and pay full tuition, who’s problrm becomes worse as more Kollel families ask for a larger break/free.
Even if I don’t directly support (which I do), I indirectly do so by virtue of my larger tuition cost.November 24, 2008 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #627343noitallmrParticipant
“Even if a guy is sitting in Kollel and not learning – at least he is in a good environment, not on the filthy street….. “
But for how long? How long can I guy stay in Kollel not learning. He’ll go nuts and break. That is when he’ll be on the filthy street in every sense of filthy…November 24, 2008 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #627344
The bottom line is that the VAST VAST majority of Kollel yungerleit are Tzadikim, that we should be aspiring to emulate. (And we should be seeking to boost their ranks — as is they constitute a TINY percentage of Klal Yisroel.)
For one to say otherwise is to be a Baal Loshon Hora and a Baal Sheker, as well as an afront on the Torah itself. And it comes with all the shreklach consequences of someone in that position.November 24, 2008 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #627346
Joseph, I personally disagree that most are tzadikim. The men I know in kollel range from the people I know with the worst middos to tzadikim. They are no better or worse than the general frum population, they just get their salary from the rest of us.
I have no trouble supporting really special learners. I have a problem supporting people who either 1) are not particularly great learners and should not be learning full time or 2) people who dont internalize Torah. Its great to learn well, but when you have zero middos it shows me that all that learning is doing nothing for them. They dont understand a word of Torah really if their middos are that bad.
And yes, I get to make a judgement because they are asking for MY money.November 24, 2008 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #627347
Tzadikim yes, but emulate?
I will argue (you may disagree) that I would rather emulate the person who works a full day, and still gets 4-6 hours of learning in per day (I wish I could).
As per boosting their ranks, I do so, but the kollel I help support has tests!
As per everything else, the risk/reward chesbon is beyond me, but here is some of the calculation: If by supporting ‘x’ kollel families by giving them tution breaks we cause ‘y’ husbands who are working to work longer and cut back on their learning to pay tuition, ‘z’ shalom bayis problems due to money, and ‘x+y’ women in the workplace (both kollel families and working struggling to pay tuition), causing those mothers not to be able to give proper hashpaa to their children, is it worth it?
More so, shouldn’t the working parents also be able to have a say in the balance they feel is best in their family, instead of involuntarily supporting Kollel men who may be better off working, and allowing the working men to learn?
You are going to tell me the “Roshei Yeshiva” said we should expand Kollelim, but in the USA (NOT E”Y!), the cheshbon is simple, and there is no clear-cut point at which anyone is willing to say enough, even if they thought they should (part of people’s disrespect for Rabbonim, they will just continue even if they are told no).
This is all assuming Kollel men can support their families by working, which I have pointed out earlier in this thread that many can not if they go to work.November 24, 2008 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #627348
gavra_at_work: i would like to add to your “You are going to tell me the “Roshei Yeshiva” said we should expand Kollelim”. there is a simple reason that in europe for th emost part, roshei yeshivos and rabbonim were mutualy exclusive. because teh ball habatim needed a rov who had a sense of reality. roshei yeshivos for the most part live in the fantasy world of yeshiva (not a bad one, so no smashing me for saying such a thing). their job is to promote their yeshiva, and rightfully so. but reality is that econimic systems rely on real world rules, not ones made up in a yeshiva office. supply and demand doesn’t end at the yeshiva doors. when there is more money that needs to go out in the form of payroll to kollel yungerleit then there is money coming in through the form of donations, then there is a economic meltdown of kollel economic system. the only way to correct this is th esame that any company corrects this, slim down the workforce, or telling the weaker of the learners, say the bottom 50% to go out to the workforce. the problem is the yeshivos are only now going to be forced to do this in the economic turndown. when these kollel yungerleit, with zero work experience, are going to now go out to find a parnassah, it will be alot harder. had the yeshivos been responsible, as they should have been, they would have slowly released these men into the real world, so that their local economies could slowy integrate them into jobs during growth years. as t hepeople supplying th efunds to these yeshvos, we absolutely have a right to say how the money gets spent. we also have the right to say that alot of them are there for the sole purpose of not wanting to go work. i have plenty of friends who are in the kollel life because they want to take easy street, and have their in laws supporting them. for a few years they say. the whole notion of learning a few years is silly. either you will make it you life, or you wont. if you are not, get to the workplace asap.November 24, 2008 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #627349
The line of thinking that goes “well, the goyim do it, why shouldn’t we?” is flawed since as Joseph pointed out in another thread, two wrongs don’t make a right. You can scream the word LEGAL until the end of the world, but that still won’t make it right.
And, by the way, Joseph, I am keeping the field of education in mind as a career option. I’m just a little hesitant because my mother got “burnt out of” teaching.November 24, 2008 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #627350
jf02, Expound on why you feel if its fully legal, Yidden should take less advantage of the system than the non-Jews. You are wrong in my opinion.November 24, 2008 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #627351
jewishfeminist02: my mom is a teacher, i have aunts as teachers, and they all have one thing in common. they all went in enthusiastic, and within 10 years they were sick of it. it is simply due to the governments inability to do anything right. the hoops to get anything done is a classroom that a teacher must jump through just is not worth it.
and people want to give the government control of health-care?!?!November 25, 2008 4:24 am at 4:24 am #627352The Rabbis daughtersMember
I actualy agree fully with joseph on this thread.And for those people who dont have anything good to say about bochurim learning in kollel they dont have to say it.Because even if you dont like the idea, they are still doing the right thing of learning in kollel.November 25, 2008 5:19 am at 5:19 am #627353
The Rabbis daughters: you can agree with joseph. but i have an issue with the words you chose. no bochurim learn in kollel. yungerman learn in kollel. bochurim learn in beis medrash. see, a bochur gets married, and stops being a bochur (just like a bachelor). once the man is married, he is halachally obligated to get a job! this is unarguable! this is G-d’s words! now there are people that are willing to not partake of this mitzvah, and choose to sit and learn, and that is commendable. we should support them, but when we do, we should only be supporting the best and brightest, otherwise the system fails, as i have explained before. as you said that they are doing the right thing sitting in kollel is based on nonsense and propaganda, because halachically they are not doing the correct thing, they are batlunim (the term the gemora uses for kollel yungerleit). they are being mevatel the mitzvah of sheishes yomim ta’avod!.November 25, 2008 6:05 am at 6:05 am #627354yitzy99Member
There are very good reasons why it is written that a father should teach his son a trade. Nowhere does it say a father should teach his son how to work the welfare system, or how to be an excellent shnorrer.November 25, 2008 9:13 am at 9:13 am #627355mamashtakahMember
Joseph said, “You are wrong in my opinion.”
The problem is, Joseph, that you think everyone is wrong 100% of the time.November 25, 2008 11:58 am at 11:58 am #627359
“v’shenantum l’vanecha v’dibarta bam”November 25, 2008 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #627360
Rebbe Meir says, a man should ever teach his son a clean and easy trade, and pray to He to whom all wealth and property belong. Rebbe Nehorai says, I leave aside all of the trades in the world and I don’t teach my son anything but Torah.
The Rema on Yoreh Deah 246:21 says one who is not independently wealthy should accept community support to learn Torah.
Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg (a prominent Yerusalayim Dayan, and son-in-law of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l) was consulted by a yeshiva boy regarding his interest in studying medicine. The young man asked how the community to which he belonged could seemingly disregard our Sages’ admonition to take steps to remain self-supporting. Rav Goldberg responded with the following story:
A certain Jew once confronted Rav Elchanan Wasserman, asking how charedim could neglect the beraisa which says that a father is obligated to teach his son a trade. (Rav Wasserman, author of “Kovetz Shiurim,” was very adamant that Yeshiva students should strive to devote all their time to study). Rav Wasserman pointed out that this beraisa also compels the father to circumcise his son. As we know, if two sons die from this procedure, then the father should not circumcise his other sons (Shulchan Arukch Yoreh Deah 263:2). Likewise, Rav Wasserman saw that many young people died, that is defected from Torah observance, when they pursued trades.
In “Sippurei Chasidim” (Mishpatim number 198), Rav Zevin tells of one of the early Chasidic Rebbes, Rav Uri the “Seraph” of Sterlisk, who was asked how he could neglect his wife and children, insofar as his kesuba obligates him to work. Rav Uri pointed out that the kesuba obliges the husband to support his wife “bekushta” – in truth, implying that the search for truth (Torah study) has precedence.November 25, 2008 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #627361
The Rabbis daughters:
You make a good point about many people who are in Kollel are just married Bochrim, who have not yet grown up and are really not capable of supporting a family.
For those Bochrim, they may as well learn because they are incapable of doing anything else. Just please do not ask for our tuition money to go toward their tuition breaks.November 25, 2008 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #627362zalmyMember
in response to joseph’s story above from R’ Z. N. Goldberg (that now we don’t have to teach our children a trade because there are cases of people “dying”, i.e. going “off the derech” because of this pursuit):
based on this logic, since the institutionalized widespread kollel lifestyle (which is universally recognized to lead to increased economic struggle and poverty) has created serious concern among our children, and since there have been reported cases (even in chareidi publications!!) of both children and adults going “off the derech” (to varying degrees) because of the current push for only learning (to the exclusion of any/all parnassah opportunities), based on your logic, we must conclude that just like a father should not circumcize his sons, and (according to your post) not teach his son a trade, so too must a father not teach his son torah (ch”v!), because after all pushing every single boy into kollel for life has resulted in cases of people “going off the derech” (for various reasons, including the incredible financial strains and struggles).
joseph – is this really what you believe?? while you and i obviously disagree on whether a father should (or should not) teach his son a trade, the justification you provide for the institutionalized kollel system (which demands that every male spend his entire life learning to the exclusion of all else) is really (ch”v) a ‘svoro’ why we should not teach our children torah (ch”v)!! even i strongly disagree with this position!!November 25, 2008 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #627363
In my previous post, I have not stated a word as to my position. I merely quoted a posuk from the Torah (from Krias Shma), a Mishna, a Rema on Yore Deah, and quoted various Gedolei Yisroel.
You are not disagreeing with me…November 25, 2008 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #627364
Joseph: Someone once asked Shlomo Carlebach why he had no problem hugging and kissing women, Carlebach replied, “If you see a woman drowning, would you save her, or let her drown because you’re not allowed to touch a woman? In these times, everyone is drowning.”
Your post sounds very similar to Carlebach’s reply. I don’t like either one of them, by the way.November 25, 2008 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #627365zalmyMember
well then, joesph, i am willing to say that i disagree with the story you cited above (seemingly as proof that all men should be in kollel indefinitely and not prepare or pursue parnassah opportunities). i have outlined my reasons in my last post.
do YOU (joseph) agree or disagree with the ‘svoro’ that you cited, which calls for not keeping any mitzvah, shitta, etc. which has ever caused individuals to stray from yiddishkeit – YES or NO??November 25, 2008 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #627367
I wonder if everyone would be for taking advantage of services if you either had to:
1) repay the services (kind of like an interest free loan)
2) Do community service for your services (pledged per year or something)
What if the community service couldnt be done for Jewish organizations, only non-affiliated ones?November 25, 2008 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #627368favishMember
JOSEPH ..ETC SEE KSAV SOFER ON POSUK ‘VAYOSEM ES EPHRAIM LIFNEI MENASHE’..AND THAT IS THE YESOD OF THE WHOLE ISSUE OF SITTING AND LEARNING
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