December 5, 2008 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #627429
We unquestionably support Torah. What we do not (some of us) want to be forced to support is someone else who does not seem to feel the need to be achrayi on his own family. We all have expenses, we all work hard to make ends meet. My husband would also love to take a few years to sit and learn, something which he was denied for most of his life. But that will not put food on the table, and keep a roof over our heads, and my earnings were never enough except to help us get by. I raised our five children, I did not delegate their care to someone else. I took jobs at night so that my husband would be home when I was not. There is no way we would struggle like that to put money on someone ELSE’S table. It is a tough world for all of us. And as we have said repeatedly, if the Kollel generation does not wise up, there will be NO one in one generation or two at the very most, who will be skilled and educated enough to support their own children while they choose to sit and learn. And to accuse someone of being anti-Torah for feeling that way, is incredibly arrogant and probably oveir on Motzi Shem Ra. But what would I know – I don’t learn Gemarah.December 7, 2008 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #627430
The problem most people have with supporting kollels is that their doesn’t seem to be any criteria similar to secular colleges for gaining admission or maintaining their academic standing. Not everyone graduating from a yeshiva high school is qualified to sit and learn all day yet they all seem to find a place to take them. Kollel is like graduate school, only the cream should be supported by the community. If someone who falls into bottom half of the bell curve wants to sit and learn, it should not be the community’s responsibility to support him.December 7, 2008 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #627431
According to the absurd logic of some posters here, Rabban Gamaliel is anti- kollel and therefore anti-Torah as he stated; “..Great is study of the Torah when combined with a worldly occupation, for toil in them both puts sin out of mind. All study of the Torah which is not supplemented by work is destined to prove futile and causes sin…..”
I’d love to understand why this is ignored.December 8, 2008 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #627432
yitzy – I don’t know the mekor and if he meant it at face value – but one thing I can tell you, is that if he was alive today, he would agree with today’s gedolim, our generation’s “rabban gamliel”s who say that it’s a hora’as sha’ah in our generation that we need as many as possible in klal yisroel who are capable of sitting and learning all day to do so, as in our immoral generation, while it’s shayich to also LEARN torah, it’s not shayich to get GADLUS b’torah, or make talmidei chachomim/poskim if they do not stay enveloped in the bubble of torah. This is specifically for our generation that things changed, and given that it is da’as torah, I’m sure the gedolim would say that the tanaim and amoraim would agree to this “shita” if they were alive in this depraved generation…December 8, 2008 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #627433
The fact that there is a hot and heavy debate going on right here, indicates to me that Rabban Gamaliel was right on the money, and in his wisdom foresaw many of the problems being discussed. “..Great is study of the Torah when combined with a worldly occupation, for toil in them both puts sin out of mind. All study of the Torah which is not supplemented by work is destined to prove futile and causes sin…..” seems quite straightforward.December 8, 2008 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #627434
Right, but the debate going on right here is not between Rav Kanievsky, the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Scheinberg and Rav Elyashiv, (or any other gedolim for that matter,) and those who ARE immersed in Torah in our generation DO say what I mentioned in my last post, and they (not us) have the authority to say whether a hora’as sha’ah which overrides that mishnah applies today or not. And each person should ask the advice of their own Rav as to what they should be doing.
IMHO, it sounds like you have an agenda here and won’t hear anything I have to say – in which case as Rav Chaim Brisker would say “you don’t have questions, you have answers”. The only reason I bother giving a response is for the others reading these posts, that they shouldn’t be mislead by your conclusions (read agendas). But my kavannos are l’sheim shamayim, and while people should do the right things for them (as their Rav helps them ascertain, I am beginning to feel like a broken record), my concern is for the heilige yidden reading this to keep the right perspective of priorities in Hashem’s eyes (and the Torah’s eyes, as per our gedolim). If you want to take issue with the gedolim go ahead and give them a call :p – but in all seriousness on this forum realize you have a huge achrayus for everyone reading the thread if you want to air out your opinions to the hamon am – without a Rav who is a Yarei Shamayim IN OUR GENERATION who agrees with you and back you up.December 8, 2008 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #627435
Thank you dveykus613. That is it in a nutshell.December 8, 2008 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #627436gavra_at_workParticipant
First and foremost, welcome to the forum.
I have heard the hora’as sha’ah arguement, but in regards to the Shoah, not Pritzus.
Your point goes to the heart of two of the recently debated issues (which do not have any answers as of yet)
1: Do the gedolim with no specific knowledge of the situation have a better answer then those who know the facts on the ground?
2: Will people listen to the gedolim if they say go to work (it has bee rumored that a Gadol in EY (RAYLS) had to retract such a statement after the Hamon Am protested/rioted when he made such a Psak), or do people do what they want against their rabbonim, as what seems to have happened in Lakewood?
I can not presume you have THE answer to either of the questions, and if you did, I would suspect you of Nevuah. Just be aware of the issues you are touching on.December 8, 2008 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #627437
first & foremost, thanks for the welcome 🙂
I wasn’t talking about the Shoah or Pritzus (at least not in this thread 🙂 still waiting to hear from 000646 in the Random Qs thread), I was addressing Yitzy’s arguments for Torah with work.
I don’t have nevuah, but I do have a response to your first Q, but it has to do with ABCs of yiddishkeit and a lengthy explanation, based on chazal, and since it nighttime in Israel I have to go get a decent night’s sleep – but I do hope to address it at a later point. I will suffice to say at this point, that you can be assured that the torah has a response for everything, and the “hamon am”‘s opinions cannot be the gauge for what is right and wrong.
As far as the second Q, I am not sure what you are talking about and would like to verify the facts for myself, and what he meant, and who it was addressed to, as well as which gadol it was – is that R’ Shtaynman? – do you have a link to an article or a source for reading up on it?
I am also curious what hora’as sha’ah you heard in regards to the Shoah?
In case you don’t see me in a while it will mean I have won over my yetzer hara and will be having a productive day tomorrow 🙂 otherwise, if he wins the battle (but not the war!) I will respond tomorrow AM here 🙁 but then I hope to be able to say goodbye soon.. :pDecember 8, 2008 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #627438
I think I may have brought this up something like 67 posts ago, but to the recent posters, have you seen Yonasan Rosenblum’s article Chemotherapy as Metaphor?December 8, 2008 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #627439
thanks Joseph – nice to have one “voice” not attacking me 🙂December 9, 2008 12:32 am at 12:32 am #627440
“IMHO, it sounds like you have an agenda here and won’t hear anything I have to say ” “But my kavannos are l’sheim shamayim, “
Nobody wishes to attack you, as far as I know. However , you set yourself up for criticism when you make satements like the two I quoted above. You ascribe agendas to those who disagree with you, and imply that the only reason your arguments are not winning them over is that they refuse to listen. On the other hand, you claim for yourself the holiest and purest of intentions. Try to be leave the personal out of the discussions.December 9, 2008 1:06 am at 1:06 am #627441
Thanks for mentioning the Chemotherapy as Metaphor article. It was very thoughtful and covered many issues that concern me such as child rearing. It’s encouraging to see that some leaders are aware of the serious problems that eminate from the “Kollel revolution.” Hopefully, the kollel system can evolve into something that unites rather than divides.December 9, 2008 1:48 am at 1:48 am #627442
Hopefully, the kollel system can evolve into something that unites rather than divides.
That line sounds like its straight out of a Reform handbook.December 9, 2008 2:28 am at 2:28 am #627443
You are so predictable. Where is your sense of humor?December 9, 2008 3:33 am at 3:33 am #627444
lesschumras, unfortunately that comment (that I replied to) was not intended as a joke.December 9, 2008 6:58 am at 6:58 am #627445
lesschumras – that’s only if you are looking to attack. Anyone who knows torah and isn’t trying to disprove anything or rationalize actions against the Torah (ask Joseph) knows when I do post it’s generally to argue a point for kavod hatorah or ratzon hashem.
But I AM setting myself up for a stira by being on here, instead of davening and tending to my house/work as much, so I hope not to be on here much longer and start using my life more productively….then there will not be voices of emes hatorah on here and everyone can argue their anti torah rationales and support eachother in it, and hopefully I and the few who are lsheim shamayim (as far as I can tell like Joseph, the Big One, and a few others) will end up living our lives lsheim shamayim not wasting it on here – and the arguers will be free to bring up kfira (read anything against what our gedolim say) without a conscience on here to impinge on your rights!
Not sure what everyone will do once we’re gone, but that’ll be their problem…they’ll probably be happy to have support in their skewed hashkafos – if everyone would just as their Rav their “kashos” and live by that, most of these threads (at least the ones with machlokes) wouldn’t be necessary and we would all be in a better place…maybe even Mashiach would finally come!
Disclaimer: the above does not apply to anyone asking their own G-d fearing Rav and living their life by it, even if it is different that those who are lsheim shamayim are saying. We can only say what we know based on our rabbonim…but derech hatorah is asking your own rav and living by it, not arguing and “coming up with emes” which is really sheker from debate with the laymen…December 9, 2008 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #627447
You know why Purim is on the highest madreiga of Jewish holidays, and why Yom Kippur is called the Yom K’Purim, the day LIKE Purim? That is because ANYBODY can be a tzaddik when he is fasting and shukkeling away in Shul for 25 hours on a day filled with introspection and thoughts only of doing Teshuvah. But when he remains a tzaddik on a day of levity and lightheartedness, a day when he is even told to eat a fancy seudas mitzvah and drink alcohol ad d’lo yada (something I do not really recommend in this day and age), and still elevates that levity and foolishness to a height of kedusha when he is NOT somber and fasting, but FEASTING, THAT is a person who is acting with true Tzidkus. There is a reason for that old adage about there being no atheists in foxholes. We are more able to “act religious” when a situation fosters a particular religious emotion in us. Similarly, it is very easy for the Yeshivah world to maintain a certain level of frumkeit and commitment when talmidim do not venture out of the daled amos of the protection of the Yeshivah. And that’s ok, I suppose. But when those same people venture out into the real world, manage to hold down a job, take care of their families, and despite the shmutz that they may see outside the vestiges of the Yeshivah walls, REMAIN totally committed to their observance of Torah and Mitzvos, then their learning has even greater value in my humble opinion.December 10, 2008 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #627448
oomis1105 – you may be right that someone who accomplishes in the face of adversary is greater than someone who never overcame such a nisayon.
BUT, we are not allowed to put ourselves into a makom sakona in order to “show what we are made of”. THese is a gemora (i have no idea where and I just think it is a gemorah, maybe some of the men can help me out with this) that if there are two paths leading to a destination, one goes by a riverbank where there may be woman washing clothing and may not be 100% percent tznius, and the man chooses to go that route AND DOES NOT LOOK AT THE WOMEN, he is considered a rosha because he had no business putting himself into such a situation.
After 40 years in the midbar when the yidden were going to enter eretz yisroel, did hashem say – well if you can’t withstand a simple nisayon of avodah zarah which will be presented to you by the 7 Umos then what was your 40 years in Yeshiva worth? Or did he say – Kill them all out so you don’t learn from them?
We were put into this world to do ratzon hashem and only hashem (through circumstances, etc) can decide which nisayonos to give to which person. We cannot choose a nisayon because if we pass it the result may be greater kovod shamayim.December 10, 2008 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #627449
tb, what about people who can’t sit and learn all day? Aren’t they putting themselves into sakanah of stealing by learning in kollel? They don’t sit and learn as they’re supposed to, yet they faithfully collect their kollel check every month. They’re stealing. If they’d gone out to find a job, they wouldn’t be in such a situation.
Also, sometimes you don’t have a choice in the matter. I knew I wasn’t cut out to sit and learn. My Rebbe agreed with me. I went to college, and now have a job in the corporate world. Are there nisyonos? Of course. Did I place myself into a makom sakanah on purpose? No, I need to support my family. If I left my job, my family wouldn’t have a house to live in, we wouldn’t have food to eat, etc.December 10, 2008 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #627450
Fein un – you misunderstood what I said. When I said hashem needs to place you in the nisayon i did mention circumstances which include not being cut out for learning, need to earn a living etc. Those circumstances are hashem sending you the nisayon. Oomis seemed to be saying (unless I misunderstood her) that no one should learn in kollel but instead should go out and get a job and learn when they have the time because “then their learning is worth more”. I do not think that there is anything working if need be.
With regard to your first point, that is a totally different discussion. Of course every aspect in life comes with its own individual nisyonos. But, BTW, most paying kollelim are not something everyone can into. And I assume their criteria includes whether the people are really learning or not. Many people end up in Lakewood and are not serious learners are out of kollel by the time they are elligible for a kollel check. (I made that fact up but given the # of years you need to be there it makes sense). Also the nisayon is no different for a working guy. Just substitute kollel check for paycheck.December 10, 2008 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #627451
If the ENTIRE real world is a makom sakana, we all may as well climb into a hole and wait for Moshiach to come. The Torah says “V’chai Bahem.” We are supposed to live our Torah lives in the world HaShem gave us, not hide from it. We have to make a Tikkun Olam, and that is NOT accomplished, no matter what one may think, solely by sitting in one place and not striving to do things that change the world. And btw, if the world is such a makom sakana, why on EARTH are the kollel men sending their precious wives out into it to put themselves in such sakana, earning a living that the yungerleit themselves are not earning, in order to avoid the sakana themselves? Talk the talk and walk the walk. If according to you it is a sakana for you, it is a WORSE sakana for the young women.December 10, 2008 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #627452
tb: Agreed, the nisayon is the same for a working guy. However, people don’t pressure him into doing something he’s not cut out for. When someone is looking for a job, they usually look for something they are good at, and at least somewhat enjoy doing. People are pressured into sitting and learning even when they’re not cut out for it. I have to imagine the Rabbonim who pressure them are at least somewhat responsible for any stealing which occurs due to this.
I’ve written before about how when I was leaving the Yeshiva I was in to go to college (the yeshiva didn’t allow any college, I switched to a smaller, half day yeshiva), one of the Roshei Yeshiva (there are 2) told me “You’re throwing your life down the drain.”
Luckily for me, the other Rosh Yeshiva (who I happened to be closer to anyway. I didn’t have a great relationship with the first one) told me to ignore it, and that he didn’t know what he was talking about.
It happens to be, a year or so later, the first RY called my parents and apologized. Basically, he said he had thought I was like my brothers (who ended up in Lakewood), and didn’t judge me for who I was.December 10, 2008 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #627453BizrizutParticipantDecember 10, 2008 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #627454
Oomis – “If the ENTIRE real world is a makom sakana, we all may as well climb into a hole and wait for Moshiach to come.”
Actually there was a gadol who said to yeshiva guys (no I don’t know who and I can’t prove that he said it) THe whole world is a mabul and you are in the teivah. There is a concept of when the world becomes too corrupt to seperate yourself from the world. My guess for a source would be a rashi in bereishis about ashur leaving and building a city. Tell me if you need me to find it.
“We have to make a Tikkun Olam, and that is NOT accomplished, no matter what one may think, solely by sitting in one place and not striving to do things that change the world” – that’s your problem. You don’t realize that torah learning changes worlds!
“And btw, if the world is such a makom sakana, why on EARTH are the kollel men sending their precious wives out into it to put themselves in such sakana, earning a living that the yungerleit themselves are not earning, in order to avoid the sakana themselves?”
Let’s get this straight. I never said that the reason sit and learn is to avoid the sakana of going out to the world. All I said was that your idea of learning torah when faced with sakana is more valuable and therefore… was errouneous. People learn because (for them) learning is the right thing to do.
Now as a seperate point you may want to know about the sakana of going out into the
world which applies to both men and ladies (but is not the men saying better that you put yourself into sakana than me). And yes, when choosing a job you do have to weigh the different factors, interaction between the genders, environment, office discusion, travel how and with whom, etc.December 10, 2008 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #627455
Fein un – So you are saying that in the “real world” everyone loves their bosses, has true job satisfaction because they chose the proffession that was just right for them, never take a job because that’s just what was available and they needed the money, and sing happily on their way to work everyday?!? Whereas some (%?) of the kollel guys were just pushed into learning….December 10, 2008 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #627456
No, tb, I’m not saying that. Yes, many people don’t like their jobs, and they do it because they need the income. However, they realize why they’re doing it. They aren’t told that they have to do it or they’re throwing their life away, they choose to do it on their own.
Bochurim today in most yeshivas are taught that if they don’t sit and learn in kollel, they’re doing something wrong. They are pressured to go to kollel whether they’re cut out for it or not. They don’t get to think for themselves, and decide what they want.December 10, 2008 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #627457
I think there should be new threads: kolel standards, and the tznius revolution.December 10, 2008 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #627458squeakParticipant
<applause>December 10, 2008 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #627459
Tb, I appreciate that there are sakanos in the world. But how weak are our young men if they can’t start to face them? And why is putting our women out on the front lines to face them now a lechatchila? What’s happening to our families? Does it have to be Torah OR strong families with a mother who can be home, if not full time then part time?December 10, 2008 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #627460
Tb, I appreciate that there are sakanos in the world. But how weak are our young men if they can’t start to face them? And why is putting our women out on the front lines to face them now a lechatchila? What’s happening to our families? Does it have to be Torah OR strong families with a mother who can be home, if not full time then part time?
Tzippi (my daughter’s name and spelling of same, btw), I agree with you.December 11, 2008 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #627461
Did I ever say that the reason people should learn is to avoid the sakana of going out to work? Somebody please tell me. Am I crazy or are they crazy? Nevermind. I bother posting here. I’m the one who is crazy.
Maybe I should start a new thread. Dis anyone ever change their opinion based on what someone said in the CR and does anyone really read what other people write. Then after that we can close it down.December 11, 2008 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #627463
Tb, my apologies for not reading carefully. I am hereby seriously considering changing my screen name to Emily Littela. (So noone else take it please. Then again, never mind.)
Though I would like more background on the gadol who spoke about the teivah, etc.December 11, 2008 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #627464intellegentMember
that is a good one!
I think you should open such a thread! Waiting to see it!December 11, 2008 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #627465
“Did I ever say that the reason people should learn is to avoid the sakana of going out to work? Somebody please tell me. Am I crazy or are they crazy? Nevermind. I bother posting here. I’m the one who is crazy.”
No, but you did make the comment that one is not allowed to put himself in a makom sakana, and the implication is that because the Yeshivah world believes the world at large to be a makom sakana, that it it better not to go out into the world. So where does that leave the Yeshiva Bochurim? The Yeshivah, of course. You’re not crazy, but people tend to read between the lines, and your lines suggested the above.
As to changing our minds based on what we read here – well there is an exchange of ideas on this forum. Some people may in fact take what they read to heart. Others may never be influenced by anything. Still, it’s good to know how diverse groups of Jews think, if only to give them something to think about in the way of respecting other people’s opinions.December 12, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #627466
OK oomis, I will try this one more time (does that make me certifiably crazy?). Please read only what I write. There is no in between the lines here. You stated that the learning of someone who has come out into the “real world” in worth more that that of the yeshiva man because they have faced nisyonas and are learning in spite of it. Which seemed to imply (was I reading between the lines? correct me if I am wrong) that you were advocating that the yeshiva guy “go out into the real world” which would then make their learning worth more. To that and only that, I said, this may be the case BUT one can’t put oneself into a makom sakana just in order to come to the greater madraiga of having overcome a nisayon.
Actually I believe that is one opinion in Chet Adom. He reason that with no internal yetzer yorah it was no Kuntz to be good so if he ate from the tree and the yetzer horah became part of him and THEN he overcame it, it would be a much greater kiddush hashem.
I did not say that it is ossur or wrong to go out to work if circumstances dictate that that is what should be done. I just said that your reasoning of why they should was erroneous.December 14, 2008 3:43 am at 3:43 am #627467
I don’t advocate anyone putting himself into sakana. But it is still easier to learn when you stay in your daled amos of the yeshivah, than if you venture into the world, get a job, and still manage to do your learning. A true ben Torah does not have to fear the real world. He has already been given the tools to fight the “sakanas hamakom.” It is the boys who are not streetwise, who have not been out in the world, who when FORCED into the world (as we all must be, if we are to make a parnassah), cannot cope with some of the things they see. Being sheltered is a double edged sword. If you do not get an innoculation by exposure to a small amount of a disease, you cannot develop the proper immunity to it, either. Neighbors of mine from my childhood, lovely people, always dressed their youngest son in all white. He was a sweet boy, but never allowed to get dirty, or play normally. The child never had a spot on him. He became ill, and had no immunities to anything, and died that year of a compromised immune system. The best way to fight the yetzer hara is to face it head on and use the learned lessons of Torah to combat it. And I repeat one more time (am I certfiably crazy, too?), if it is sakana for Yeshivah men to go out in the world, how much MORE so is it for the women, who are forced to do so in order to support their husbands by working in the men’s stead. Sorry – there is something very wrong with that picture. The women need protection from the shmutz outside, much more than their husbands do. yet no one sees anything at all wrong with THEM being exposed to it, because it means the guys get to stay in the Beis Medrash.
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