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> and they are not see through
maybe someone thinks that they are see through?! you know about the guy who complained about inappropriate view across the street? They put a fence. He still called to complain – I still can see it when I get up on a chair!
DaasYochid: There’s an outstanding question for you from Philosopher.
R Moshe isn’t good enough for you?
DY, the hair is covered but see through what about hirhur like the mechitza with holes or too low?
DY, lace wigs didn’t exist during Rav Moshe’s lifetime and, thus, he didn’t opine on them.
DY, the hair is covered but see through what about hirhur like the mechitza with holes or too low?
I’m not referring to see through.
I’m referring to lined, where none of the actual hair or scalp is visible, but the kol korehs assered those as well.
There is good reason to think they may be assur, either because if it looks like her hair, it is the same lack of tznius as if her actual hair was visible, or because of maris ayin
So those who asser aren’t being illogical per se, but the fact is that R Moshe doesn’t asser even where it looks real.
DY, lace wigs didn’t exist during Rav Moshe’s lifetime and, thus, he didn’t opine on them.
That’s irrelevant. The points the osrim bring are all addressed by R’ Moshe.
Whoever’s contemporarily mattir lace wigs (who are thus far unnamed, for some reason), how would their logic to be mattir give them any room to assur a full body dress/suit that makes the wearer look naked (even though they’re actually covered)?
Or would they actually be mattir??
Additionally, DY, you’re grossly misapplying Rav Moshe in a manner Rav Moshe never indicated, implied or said. Rav Moshe mattired a wig that looks like real hair or even is actually using real hair (as opposed to synthetic hair, which was what must sheitels used then.)
But Rav Moshe in no shape, manner or form implied, indicated or stated that a wig that doesn’t look like the person is wearing any head covering, and rather appears bareheaded, is permissible. That is a completely different creation/metzius/product than the natural hair wig Rav Moshe ruled upon. The wigs he is referring to can be seen as a wig, not appearing as bareheaded, by the public.
how would their logic to be mattir give them any room to assur a full body dress/suit
Silly comparison, because that appearance is inherently untznius, whereas uncovered hair isn’t (e.g. unmarried women are perfectly tznius with uncovered hair).
But Rav Moshe in no shape, manner or form implied, indicated or stated that a wig that doesn’t look like the person is wearing any head covering, and rather appears bareheaded, is permissible.
That’s simply false. If it didn’t look like she wasn’t covering her hair, he wouldn’t need to address the maris ayin issue because it would have been moot.
DY, why can you not name any contemporary (choshuve) poskim that specifically discuss lace, and are mattir?
“Silly comparison, because that appearance is inherently untznius, whereas uncovered hair isn’t”
A married woman with the appearance of being bareheaded is just as inherently untznius as that other appearance.
“A married woman with the appearance of being bareheaded is just as inherently untznius as that other appearance.”
A married woman actually going in public bareheaded is untznius, as I’m sure you’d agree. As such, the comparison is spot on, since her appearing as bareheaded is comparable to her appearing in that full body dress/suit.
DaasYochid, not only did lace not exist at the time Rav Moshe lived, the white skin part did not exist either. Women during his lifetime wore fluffy wigs with tons of hair because the wig caps, with their tens of open wefts, were not fitted as they are today. So the “mares eyin” of years ago (which was in reality not mares eyin), is absolutely not relevent to the wigs of today. Technically in any case, Rav Moshe’s teshuva about human hair specifically, because it was about human hair over synthetic, not the way the hair was sewn in, the materials used and how it sits on the head today, which was not a reality in his times.
RE, both Rav Moshe and Rav Soloveichik said not to divorce a woman over this as today many frum women are, unfortunately, not careful in this matter. In Lithuania, it was very uncommon for women to cover their hair. Custom may impact the halacha. Why should women who have never married not have to cover their hair? An erva is an erva. The only answer the poskim give (although the Aruch haShulchan is unhappy with it) is that it is not the custom.
Avi K, hair is not an erva. It is hirhur an erva we cannot get used to.
Uncovered body we cannot get used to.DY, why can you not name any contemporary (choshuve) poskim that specifically discuss lace, and are mattir?
R Dovid isn’t longer alive to confirm, but you can ask his talmidim.
The other didn’t say it publicly AFAIK.
A married woman with the appearance of being bareheaded is just as inherently untznius as that other appearance.
It’s not inherent, it’s subjective.
The Torah says to cover the hair and the mishna says in Kesuvas 72,1 that even on daas yehudis we divorce the wife without a kesuva. As uncivered hair is not an erva but hirhur, we can get used to it.
So the “mares eyin” of years ago (which was in reality not mares eyin), is absolutely not relevent to the wigs of today.
Obviously today’s wigs are more realistic looking, but R’ Moshe addresses a wig which looks real so that people can’t tell.
Still, he holds it’s muttar; the fact that today’s look even more real in comparison doesn’t change the halacha.
Even though people in those days may have been fooled by those wigs, since we are used to more realistic looking wigs, they wouldn’t fool us because we are used to seeing more realistic looking wigs and our eyes are longer tricked.
The same thing will happen with these shaitels too; we will get used to them and they will no longer fool people I to thinking they’re real (many can already tell the difference) until the next innovation comes along and the poskim will undoubtedly have the same debate again, with the osrim saying that even if you held the lace are okay, theses new ones are definitely assur.
See שו”ת ישכיל עבדי ח”ז חאה”ע סי’ טז who explains that a פאה נכרית is okay according to the רמ”א, מג”א and לבוש, because it is no longer attached to the person and therefore the יצה”ר is not שולט, and that as long as it is customary to wear shaitels, there is no מראית עין.
DaasYochid, exactly as I said, peah nochri not being attached to the person and therefore not coming out of the scalp, the יצה”ר is not be sholet, but the ruling is on the hair that was sewn on the wigs that were out at the time of the ruling, not the wigs of today with their fitted caps and certainly not with the lace as the hair looks absolutely looks like it’s growing out of the scalp because then you defeated the point that “it is not attached to the head”.
In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.
The fact is immodesty today is our of control. The length of hair worn by girls today, never mind married women with wigs, was inconvenienable just a few decades ago. I am shocked when I see so many frum women not wearing stockings and short skirts and flip flops…it’s so gross. My husband told me he saw a frum man wearing a nose ring, I was like ok, these will be the new male versions who go together with the frum women wearing no tights and flip flops. After all, there’s nothing in halacha that say a man can’t wear nose rings! Why even when they built the mishkan the men donated their nose rings…It’s a himmel geshrei how low we have fallen. Every coarse, low-class mode of dress is excused that “it’s ok according to halacha”. Lace wigs is just one more proof of the dive tznius has taken in many communities.
When sheitel is not attached and recognizable, her beauty underneath it is not revealed, so there is no hirhur.
Philosopher, Yasher Koach. You’re able to express the point much better than myself.
but the ruling is on the hair that was sewn on the wigs that were out at the time of the ruling, not the wigs of today with their fitted caps and certainly not with the lace as the hair looks absolutely looks like it’s growing out of the scalp because then you defeated the point that “it is not attached to the head”.
It doesn’t matter what it looks like. It does not have נפש חיונית.
The לשון of the ישכיל עבדי:
ונראה בטעם הדבר, דהוא משום דקים להו לרבנן, דאין היצה”ר שולט אלא בדבר הדבוק בגוף האשה עצמה, היינו הדבר הדבוק בגוף הערוה עצמה, דאין שליטה להיצה”ר אלא בדבר שיש לו נפש חיונית, לא בדבר שאין לו נפש חיונית, ולכן בנתלש מגוף האשה, דניטל ממנו נפש החיונית, הרי פקע ממנו אותה הערוה שהיתה עליו בזמן שהיה דבוק בגוף האשה, דהרי הוא כפגר מת שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, ולכן התירו להסתכל בו, דכיון שאין להיצה”ר שליטה בו, הרי לא יבוא לידי הרהור
In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.
Now you are getting involved in the old machlokes acharonim. So you’re saying all shaitels are assur. Fine, if you want to be machmir. But the topic is lace shaitels.
The fact is immodesty today is our of control. The length of hair worn by girls today, never mind married women with wigs, was inconvenienable just a few decades ago. I am shocked when I see so many frum women not wearing stockings and short skirts and flip flops…it’s so gross. My husband told me he saw a frum man wearing a nose ring, I was like ok, these will be the new male versions who go together with the frum women wearing no tights and flip flops. After all, there’s nothing in halacha that say a man can’t wear nose rings! Why even when they built the mishkan the men donated their nose rings…It’s a himmel geshrei how low we have fallen. Every coarse, low-class mode of dress is excused that “it’s ok according to halacha”. Lace wigs is just one more proof of the dive tznius has taken in many communities.
Okay. That has nothing to do with whether lace shaitels are assur.
Philosopher, Yasher Koach. You’re able to express the point much better than myself.
True. You never would have thought to prove that lace shaitels are assur because a frum man was wearing a nose ring. 🙄
“Okay. That has nothing to do with whether lace shaitels are assur.”
Sure it does. A person can be completely untzniusdik even if technically any single aspect of their attire isn’t a direct written violation. Same with lace. In addition to whatever other halachic objections there are, it’s also untzniusdik based on the presentation alone, even absent other written objections.
Daas Yochid, first of all you are “paskening” yourself according to the loshen however no contemporary poisek would matter lace wigs, with perhaps the exception of those “Rabbis” who don’t have a problem with stocking-free legs with flipflops…
The fact is the wigs of decades ago were very noticable that hair hair was not נפש חיונית despite being made of human hair. The hair looked totally dead and everyone knew it wasn’t attached to the head. It actually looked lifeless! Today due to how the hair is preserved, the caps are made and wefts are sewn into the cap, the hairs don’t appear lifeless at all. But especially and particularly now because of the lace, it totally appears to be נפש חיונית and therefore it is posul, posul, posul. It is a shechted chazir, that’s what a lace shaitel is.
I’m not getting involved in the old machloikes. My direct ancestors were Rabbonim who paskened that wigs are not ussar and I am certainly not one to pasken that they are ussar. The women in my family wore wigs for generations and completely adhered to halacha, they were tzenuas, women I can look up to and try to emulate. I am only saying that because the Rabbis in previous decades, centuries and millennia were ok with the wigs of those times that doesn’t give women the right today to wear lace wigs of today.
A person can be completely untzniusdik even if technically any single aspect of their attire isn’t a direct written violation.
Okay, but you are saying they are technically assur.
And again, I don’t think you can compare uncovered hair with other aspects of tznius.
The fact is the wigs of decades ago were very noticable that hair hair was not נפש חיונית
What the ישכיל עבדי is saying is that it has nothing to do with how it looks. So you can repeat your assertions that these look different than the older wigs, but you are missing the point of those who are mattir. They hold that as long as the actual hair is covered, it’s muttar even if it looks real.
I’m not getting involved in the old machloikes.
You did.
no contemporary poisek would matter lace wigs,
Simply false
I do agree with some of the points you are making. I think tznius has continued to be an increasing challenge for many, and the desire to have a head covering which is indistinguishable from natural hair is not a good thing.
I also agree that someone having been mattir fake looking wigs cannot be used to be prove that real looking wigs are muttar.
What I disagree with is the assertion that it is impossible to be mattir these.
First of all, many can tell the difference, so even if you hold that a real looking wig is assur, where do you draw the line? The previous shaitels also looked quite real. Every few years you hear new kol korehs that the shaitels are worse than previous ones (and it’s true, as they keep trying to make them look more real). But if you held the shaitels from 5 years ago were ok, or today’s non lace, then you are saying that very realistic is still not assur unless it’s 100% real looking. Well, these still aren’t. Many people say they can tell. So is the line 99%? 95%?
Secondly, as I have pointed out, some hold that even if a shaitel is 100% real looking, as long as her actual hair isn’t showing, it’s muttar. So no matter how much you say that these are more real looking, it won’t make it assur according to that opinion.
Here’s a post of Joseph’s from 11 years ago (!) saying that “only recently” do shaitels look real.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/sheitels#post-692063
DY, do you imagine that the poskim you’re claiming would be mattir a shaitel where the length of the hair reach her ankles?
R Yitzchak Berkowitz is on record as saying if the shaitels before the lace shaitels are ok, so are the lace ones. If the lace ones are assur, they should have assered shaitels a while ago.
R Oberlander from Monsey, although he does say there’s maris ayin (which R Moshe gives several reasons to be mattir) agrees it’s not actually erva and you can say a bracha in front of a woman wearing a lace shaitel.
DY, do you imagine that the poskim you’re claiming would be mattir a shaitel where the length of the hair reach her ankles?
Ask them.
R Felder who assers lace shaitels says it’s not tznius to wear long shaitels where it’s not the norm, but it’s not a violation of kisui harosh. So there’s that.
Thank you ujm. I like, and agree, with you short but concise points.
DaasYochid, I never said wigs, human or otherwise, are assur so I did not get involved in old machloikes. I am talking specifically about lace shaitlech whether they are halachically ok or not and not about the wigs in earlier times as those wigs were TOTALLY visible that they are wigs. And that is what I’m talking about, are wigs that appear to grow out of the scalp are kosher or not? As I said those wigs are shechted chazirim. The wigs the previous Rabbonim were matir had absolutely no shaichas to the lace wigs of today so trying to say that I’m getting involved in an old machloikes is not being honest as their was no machloikes years ago regarding lace wigs; they simply did not exist!
The shaitels in previous centuries and decades did not look real, everyone could tell they are shaitels until approximately 10-15 years ago, I don’t remember when, the white silk skin top started to be sold on the market. At that point, if a shaitel was made well, with good hair and sewn in well, only frum women, and perhaps men having been exposed to many women wearing wigs (for example if had many daughters wearing wigs with silk parts) would be able to differentiate between hair and wig. However now since the lace wigs came out it is simply impossible to see someone is wearing a wig unless they are wearing it in a braid or ponytail, but that is only in the back, the front totally looks like it’s coming out of the head, and when worn down the hair looks like it’s sprouting out of the scalp. You cannot tell lace wigs are wigs. The only reason people can tell is because they know the person who is wearing it.
Now the Yaskil Avdi is absolutely not paskening whether one can wear a lace wig or not. What he is saying was whether wigs are considered to arouse the yetzer hora or not. And remember that human hair wigs during his time looked LIFELESS. He says that hair that is seperate from the body is like a CORPSE over which evil inclination has no control. However, lace wigs are so not corpse-like, I highly doubt he would call the long, flowing, lace wigs of today being “like a corpse”. However, even if he did he is talking about the evil inclination specifically, not if wigs are allowed to be worn according to halacha.
Now you claimed that there are CONTEMPORARY poskim who say these lace wigs are ok. So I’d like to hear who they are. I’m not interested in hearing YOUR INTERPRETATIONS of Reb Moishe’s rulings or Rabbi Ovadia Ben Sholom’s rulings on wigs that were not lace wigs, but the wigs of their times. I want to hear current poskims rulings on specifically the lace wigs.
DaasYochid, I never said wigs, human or otherwise, are assur so I did not get involved in old machloikes.
You said, and I quote, “In addition, the original source in Gemara talks about peah nochri that women wore, however Jewish girls and women wore additional head coverings as well so we are not talking about women walking in the streets, and likely not in their homes either, with only peah nochri covering their hair. Peah nochri was used as WEAVE together with a woman’s own hair, NOT as WIGS to cover the entire head, to make thin hair look fuller.”
That is straight from the באר שבע, who assered פאה נכרית.
The shaitels in previous centuries and decades did not look real, everyone could tell they are shaitels until approximately 10-15 years ago,
The poskim who assered said they looked real.
So you agree that there’s nothing new in the last couple of years? But the poskim who are assering now didn’t asser 10-15 years ago!!
However, lace wigs are so not corpse-like, I highly doubt he would call the long, flowing, lace wigs of today being “like a corpse”.
Again, he didn’t say anything about appearance. He said it has no נפש חיונית. Not that it doesn’t look like it has.
So I’d like to hear who they are.
I have mentioned several.
“But the poskim who are assering now didn’t asser 10-15 years ago!!”
Oh, yes, they did.
Then they should have put out a kol korei that all nice shaitels from the last 20 years should be thrown out.
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