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A story just posted on the News Page references an Asifa held by Agudah in suburban Chicago for hundreds of Yeshiva talmidim in the midwest which included a presentation by a former chabad Rav named Shaul Shimon Deutsch (aka “the Liozna Rebbe”. I recall about 15- 20 years ago he had some big plans for a museum complex in Brooklyn focused on animals and artifacts referenced in the Torah. I assume this is the same Rav. Is that facility still operating?
If you mean the living Torah museum then yes
Yes. The Living Torah Museum in Boro Park.
Had not heard of this guy, but ended up reading for hours after looking into him.
I really hope this thread continues, and I highly recommend people look into R. Shaul Shimon Deutsch’s “Larger Than Life.” The second volume of it is viewable as a pdf if you search for it. He is a Lubavitcher and most of the biography still reads like someone really into the rebbe, but he is also committed to correcting some of the outright lies often repeated. Examples include: the Rebbe having studied at the Sorbonne, the Rebbe having learned with/known Einstein, the Rebbitzin having been a translator for the NY Public Library.
Any chance of you letting me know where I can access volume 2? I read volume 1 many years ago but have never seen volume 2.
@neville, the rebitzen worked at a librarian in BROOKLYN public library, NOT NYPL, I know that for a fact.
To me, a gadol is larger than life if i hear him answer reb akiva eigers kashos
RSo, if you google the book, it should come up. They don’t allow links, but it’s on internet archive.
Common: He presents a signed statement from the library in the book stating that she never worked there. He also provides transcripts from the Barry Gurary trial where she herself needed a translator, so obviously she wasn’t fit to work as one herself. The false claim made was not that she was a librarian, but a translator.
@Neville, I worked for BPL and I had access to all personnel records, she worked there as a Russian Language specialist.
Even in Chabad I don’t think they claim the Rebbes wife worked for the NYPL system anymore. I’ve seen Chabad documentaries about her none of which make such a claim. She is now descried as “the quiet woman behind the scenes”
One general observation that comes from reading pro and anti Chabad books about the rebbe is that no one really knew him. Not just after he became rebbe. He and his wife were about 50 at the time, yet in all the pro and anti Chabad books about his activity before he became rebbe not one ever mentions any friends that either of them had. Plenty of people came in and out of his life in various business or academic type relationships . None of them claimed to have been personally friends. Or mention anyone else who was friends with them. No one had any stories of the rebbe attending a simcha because back in Russia…Berlin…Paris… etc
After he became rebbe it was even worse. He did not have any talmidim in the sense of someone who could discuss the kashas he had on what was said by the sichos with him. Even R’ Yoel Kahn was not free to talk to him without permission from his secretaries. Leibel Groner claimed that in all the years of being gabbai, not once did he ever initiate a conversation with the rebbe. Let aloe those who had limited access to him
So Mrs. Shneerson was fluent in Russian? Interesting, I thought she spoke Yiddish.
AAQ, obviously there is a lot of things you don’t know, she spoke a fluent Russian.
PS The Satmar Rebbeh spoke a fluent Hungarian, Bobover Rav spoke a fluent Polish, Rav Weissmandl spoke a fluent Slovakian, and Gavad Rav Weiss spoke 5 languages fluently.>>>So Mrs. Shneerson was fluent in Russian? Interesting, I thought she spoke Yiddish.
No one ever claimed that she and her husband weren’t fluent in Russian. In Chabad the many languages her husband spoke is a source of pride. She even corresponded with her father in Russian in the 1920s (presumably because it was easier to find a Russian speaking censor so the letters had more of a chance of getting to their destination that way)
Her primary language was Yiddish
a few misnagdim told me i should read the book larger than life to have a truthfull view on the lubavitcher rebbe. i bought both volumes and read them.
1) he does point out some things that he claims chabad says different than the truth, but nothing major, who cares who the rebbe’s classmates were, where the rebetzin worked, if they printed a picture with the rebbe and changed his suit color,
if you want to know about the rebbe, learn his 200+ seforim on all parts of torah,
בבלי, ירושלמי, מדרש,קבלה,חסידות וכו
ליקוטי שיחות – לט חלקים
תורת מנחם 115 חלקים – still printing
אגרות קודש 40 חלקים
מאמרים ?
and more
and watch videos of his farbrengens, he sits for 6+ hours straight (sometimes even more) and explanss all parts of torah. quoting 200-300 mareh mekomos without any seforim in front of him,
and him meeting people, watch first hand stories etc.
time for people to stop spreading hate and realizing the lubavitcher rebbe was a גאון עולם and a צדיק יסוד עולם.>He is also committed to correcting some of the outright lies often repeated, examples include: the Rebbe having studied at the Sorbonne
I haven’t read Deutsch’s book, but he would have to prove that Lubavitchers forged the Rebbe’s handwriting in two different places in the Sorbonne registration book in 1937 & 1938.
Highly unlikely.Google “in the halls of the Sorbonne”
Minute 4:00 of the videoRaw, the only maamar i need to know is that he thought that a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body. It doesn’t matter to me what other ideas or teachings he had, or how much Torah knowledge he had.
I am not against languages. Not everyone did. Chofetz Chaim did not speak Polish and there is a moving story about Polish minister agreed with him based on seeing him speaking in Yiddish even before the translation. Of course, he was born before the Poland was back. Not sure whether he spoke Russian.
“time for people to stop spreading hate and realizing the lubavitcher rebbe was a גאון עולם and a צדיק יסוד עולם.”
Oh no! Don’t tell me we’re going to have another thread of how great Chabad is or isn’t?
>>>if you want to know about the rebbe, learn his 200+ seforim on all parts of torah,
בבלי, ירושלמי, מדרש,קבלה,חסידות וכוif you want to know about the rebbe read a sefer like Al Hatorah V’al Hetumrah or Im Nosi yechta . They have have avey nice synopsis of his writing along with “he’oras” .
The Rebbe was a very learned person but he did write anything on the daf and was not known to be a lamdam or an amkan. He did not speak ot people in learning. It was expected in Chabad that you accepted whatever he said. No one asked him kashes on it
Many years ago, I went on my eight grade trip to the Living Torah Museum with Rabbi Deutsch. We had finished from getting a bracha from the Skulener Rebbe Zatzal, and it took longer than expected. Even though it was late at night, Rabbi Deutsch gave us an amazing tour of the museum and showed us the artifacts that he has. He is an amazing person.
It was only years later that I found out about his book.Smerel,
did the beis halevi write on the daf?If you have any intellectual honesty, please ask a Lubavitcher chossid to show you some of the rebbes nigleh sichos. Or at least look them up on your own.
And yes, the beis halevi is so named because of his shailos veteshuvos, where he goes through sugyos in shas….we learn it routinely in yeshivos.
>>>It was expected in Chabad that you accepted whatever he said. No one asked him kashes on it
Complete ignorance.
Lubavitch yeshivos around the world printed (and continue to print) weekly or monthly kovtzim where they discuss, explain, and ASK QUESTIONS on the Rebbe’s Sichos (in addition to pilpulim in shas and poskim).
The Rebbe often discussed the questions that were asked in the kovtzim, and clarified and answered.
Instead of arguing if the Rebbe is “known” for lomdus, open his seforim and see for yourself.
Unless you’re not interested in honest discussion, feel free to put your head in the sand.
>>>the only maamar i need to know is that he thought that a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body. It doesn’t matter to me what other ideas or teachings he had, or how much Torah knowledge he had.
That’s like saying that all you need to know about Zohar is that it says “who is the face of the Master Havayeh? This is Rabbi Shimon bar yochai”
Or: all you need to know about the Yerushalmi is that it says “Havayeh in His holy chamber – this is R’ Elazar in the Beis Midrash”
Or about Midrash rabbah: “Moshe from his top half is Elokim and from his bottom half human”
Do you disregard all these seforim immediately (chas v’shalom) because you found a statement that you don’t understand, or do you look into the context to try and understand it better?
Smerel, thank you very much for bringing those two works to our attention; I actually had not heard of them. I went through al hatorah and saw things from the Lubavitcher rebbe that i previously was unaware of, like his outlandish statement that a mezuzah is a shmirah without it being a mitzvah – this is something that likely falls under the rambams classification of using a mezuzah like a kamayah, which he says makes one lose their share in olam haba. It’s the mitzvah that is shomer, not the larchment.
The author also shows something else that’s probably kefirah; in likutei sichos, the Lubavitcher rebbe says that Moshe was only taught the klalim of Torah shebaal peh, and not the pratim… because of a kasha….how could he have learned it all in 40 days; I’m shocked at the arrogance of this kasha – it was Hashem teaching! And Moshe was the talmid! What limit on Hashem’s teaching ability can there be? It’s also against open chazals, such as rashi at the beginning of behar, which clearly says that all of Torah shebaal.peh was said at sinai to Moshe.
I haven’t seen the other sefer you quoted yet, but I’m excited.
“I did not intend for the OP to morph into a debate on the Rebbe, Z’L.“
That’s the funniest line I’ve seen you write
That’s like saying someone didn’t intend for the OP to morph into something about Trump 😂😂😂
(Now we can’t start about trump just for the fun of it)
these misnagdim (if they see the quote) wont even be able to read it they will think it says עצמות – bones cuz all they learns about in cows and meat,
dont get me wrong, learn shas baal peh all day etc. etc. but dont forget about פנימיות התורה.Menachem, a statement made by a 20th century figure is not the same.. To put it mildly, as Chazal. We are maaminim in the words of chazal. Current and recent rabbis need to establish their credentials, and can be disqualified if they are found to have espoused heretical ideas.
Avira,
>>> And yes, the beis halevi is so named because of his shailos veteshuvos, where he goes through sugyos in shas….we learn it routinely in yeshivos.Exactly to my point
A sefer not being composed “Al hashas” is no indication of its contents.“He did not write anything on the daf”
…and therefore??“who cares who the rebbe’s classmates were, where the rebetzin worked, if they printed a picture with the rebbe and changed his suit color,”
If you admit that these things are falsified, then why keep spreading them? Why not stop going around telling everyone that he learned with Einstein? Why not use the undoctored versions of the photos? The silly ones in this argument are the ones lying seemingly indiscriminately, not the guy pointing them out. YOU are the ones who clearly care very deeply about keeping these lies going.“There is apparently ONE shul called “Anshei Liozna” but doesn’t seem to have attracted a significant number of chabadniks to break away from 770.”
Because there’s no market for non-meshichist Chabad. People who don’t believe the Chabad Rebbe is moshiach will just be something else entirely.“One general observation that comes from reading pro and anti Chabad books about the rebbe is that no one really knew him.”
The one we’re discussing on this thread speaks extensively about friends and acquaintances he had prior to being the Rebbe, particularly in Berlin. It could be that the later volumes talk about post-Rebbe friends, but I don’t have access.>>>The Rebbe often discussed the questions that were asked in the kovtzim, and clarified and answered.
If he felt like answering he did. And if he choose not to he did not. No one in Chabad was able to challenge him personally on what he said. No one asked him kashes on a shvera sugya or tosfos in a venue where he was being put on the spot. Certainly no one went over to him and asked him “how could you say …when…?” And I don’t mean question him a hostile way. I mean not even in the derech of talmidey chachomim discussing the sugya.
> “time for people to stop spreading hate and realizing the lubavitcher rebbe was a גאון עולם
I don’t think this says what you meant it to say! A more serious point is that if you have seforim (witnesses) that have verifiable inaccuracies, the eid is posul (or at least uninformed), and you should view such books accordingly. It would be especially sad if people put misleading information in books about their Rebbes. So, if I were, I would get to emes on this and maybe confront the publishers.
Why do Chabanicks call people from the Yeshiva world “snags”?
Isn’t that meant as a derogetory name?
Wouldn’t that be quite opposite from their “Achdus” shittah?
I mean if they can respect all nonjewish people wouldn’t it be ok to give some decent respect to fellow Jews?
Or is it because they are great great grandchildren of the one who “sic” put the Baal Hatanya in jail?Please explain. Really trying to understand.
>>>his outlandish statement that a mezuzah is a shmirah without it being a mitzvah – this is something that likely falls under the rambams classification of using a mezuzah like a kamayah, which he says makes one lose their share in olam haba.
The Rebbe’s statement about mezuzah is taken from an entire pilpul of the Rebbe on THIS VERY Rambam, where the Rebbe discusses this very question, in connection with a ב”ח and a טור, etc.
Did you look up that sicha to see how the Rebbe explains the Rambam???
Find me one other rosh yeshiva whose shiurim are refuted by people who don’t even learn them, using sources that he himself brings and explains. What a chutzpah!
See the full sicha here:
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14942&st=&pgnum=134>>>The author also shows something else that’s probably kefirah; in likutei sichos, the Lubavitcher rebbe says that Moshe was only taught the klalim of Torah shebaal peh, and not the pratim… because of a kasha….how could he have learned it all in 40 days; I’m shocked at the arrogance of this kasha – it was Hashem teaching! And Moshe was the talmid! What limit on Hashem’s teaching ability can there be? It’s also against open chazals
This “statement of the Rebbe” which you call “kefira” (ח”ו עפ”ל) actually happens be a direct quote from Shmos Rabbah:
וְכִי כָּל הַתּוֹרָה לָמַד משֶׁה, כְּתִיב בַּתּוֹרָה “אֲרֻכָּה מֵאֶרֶץ מִדָּהּ וּרְחָבָה מִנִּי יָם”, וּלְאַרְבָּעִים יוֹם לְמָדָהּ משֶׁה?! אֶלָּא כְּלָלִים לִמְדָהוּ הקב”ה לְמשֶׁה.The same is with all the other attacks. They come from pulling one-liners out of long and complex shiurim.
If you hate someone who has thousands of pages of pilpulim and chidushim, it is very easy to find a few lines and statements that sound strange when taken out of context and feed them to the ignorant public to help stoke the flames of machlokes.
This is called לימוד התורה לקנטר ר”ל.If anyone wants to be intellectually honest, look into the Rebbe’s sichos yourself, they’re all available on HeberewBooks.
Or, ask a Lubavitcher to direct you to some. You may be surprised.Avira: regarding Raw, the only maamar i need to know is that he thought that a rebbe is the essence of god wrapped in a body.
1. Your a yesh and i wonder how the moderater allow what you say about any jew let alone stam a talmud chochom let alone a rebbe. You clearly need to do a chesbon nefesh.
2. your discredditing hundreds of maamorim and thousands of sichos because you don’t undersatnd something.
3. the rebbe addresses how this is possible (in regards to the rebbe rayatz) in several places.
4. check out bikkurim chelek 2/3? halacha 3Menachem, look at the meforshim on that medrash rabba – aotz yosef, etc…they all say it isn’t literal, because of all the many places where chazal say that moshe knew everything. That sefer smerel quoted brings a leshem which says that someone who interprets the medrash that way has veered off the path – and that’s a nistar source, too.
No pilpul in the world will turn the rambam against his own words. He says not to look at a mezuzah as a shmirah by itself. Anything else is twisting his words.
Tuna – no amount of chasidus, kabalah, or philosophy, will ever convince me to deviate from the 13 ikkarim, including hisgashmius haboreh r”l or multiplicity r”l.
I would give my life rather than accept those ideas, no matter who says them and how they explain why it’s possible. It’s impossible because it’s heresy, and I don’t get into arguments with people who try to explain why heresy is possible, the same way i wouldn’t argue with someone who says that they can be a good jew and deny that one pasuk in chumash is not from Hashem – logic “a hin and a hehr”, i will never accept it, because i am a yid.
I am dying to add my 2 cents to the discussion, but so far I have nothing much to add as some of you – e.g. AviraDeArah (who is clearly a yesh, by the way) – are doing a great job for me.
Two points, however. Menachem Shmei writes: “Unless you’re not interested in honest discussion, feel free to put your head in the sand.” Which implies that if you’re takke not interested in honest discussion, then you should not put your head in the sand. I get the feeling that’s not what he meant.
Finally, I couldn’t find those seforim with discussions on some of the outlandish statements of the Lubavicher rebbe anywhere online. Can someone help me with that please?
Avira,
My point was that when it comes to the midrash, you look in mefarshim to understand what it meant.
When it comes to a sicha, you refuse to even open up the sicha itself and see what it says, let alone ask someone learned in these subjects to explain it properly (excluding those in the CR. Online discussions just go in circles.)You hear that the Rebbe quoted a Midrash, and suddenly it’s kefirah!?
And your Rambam problem is even more ridiculous.
What kind of lomdus is this? Imagine you hear a chiddush of a rosh yeshiva, and you are told that he discusses how it fits with a Rambam, yet you are stubborn that “it’s impossible to explain it any other way” without even taking a peek at his explanation!Did you check the link I sent? Did you look at seif daled:
“לכאורה קען מען אויף דערויף פרעגן: דעם רמב”ם פסק’נט: אלו שכותבין מבפנים…”???Did you see that the Rebbe’s original statement (which seems to contradict the Rambam) was based on a diyuk in the ב”ח and the טור?
You would rather “refute” what the Rebbe said without seeing it.
If this isn’t called burying your head in the sand, I don’t know what is.“Why do Chabanicks call people from the Yeshiva world “snags”?
Isn’t that meant as a derogetory name?”There are 2 reasons: 1) because they are openly a hate group. 2) because many of the baal teshuvish Lubavitchers unfortunately now think those are the official terms for non-Chassidim. The old guard in Chabad is very strict to never use terms like “Litvisher” or “yeshivish,” or anything non-offensive, so they simply aren’t aware of them.
My point was that when it comes to the midrash, you look in mefarshim to understand what it meant.
When it comes to a sicha, you refuse to even open up the sicha itself and see what it says, let alone ask someone learned in these subjects to explain it properly (excluding those in the CR. Online discussions just go in circles.)I’m going to bring up Rav Shach זצ״ל again
Do Lubavitchers know the context of what he said regarding the rebbe, you don’t
Nowhere in the Torah or Halacha does it say that we have to view אחרונים as תנאים
A friend lent me Deutsch’s book years ago, and I read some eye-opening things about both the late subject of the book.
There are many things I am tempted to say here, but I imagine my ג-ט זעליגן father ע”ה cautioning me against doing so. As I get older, I become less צעהיצט. “People are people,” I say to myself. “The world’s a rich tapestry. Who am I to condemn anyone?”
This forum has been an outlet for me. At times, though, it riles me up, which is bad for my soul. Remember the old expression: אַ בּייזע צונג איז ערגער פֿון אַ שלעכטער האַנט
very simple: the bnai torah spend years studying torah gemara, all the yeshiva and lomdishe misachtos, so even if they never learned or medrash or the agada of gemara, their intellect becomes automatically molded with daas torah, so whatever they think is emes, even if a gemara seemingly contradicts their daas torah, you have to answer the gemarah, not their holy daas torah, medrash? does avi ezri write a commentary on medrash? no, so why learn it.
Sechel, have you ever learned a medrash with meforshim?
mr avira de ara. yes, and by the way thats what alot of chassidus is – learning medrashim בעיון. just learn 10 maamerim and chances are it many of them are explaining medrashim.
youre gedolim tought you that torah was given לעשות שלום בעולם or the oppisite.
what about motzi shem ra? lashon hara, shkarim??
you believe in hashem? how can you say such apikorses?
learn some chassidus, and start derhering that there is a g-d, he loves every jew – including you.
and you should love every jew because every jew is g-d’s child.
the rebbe also loves you more than you love yourself, and he loves every jew even the biggest misnagdim who hated him.
so sad to see litvishe hashkofos – if only they tasted chassidus, טעמו וראו כי טוב ה“I read enough of those to the point where some breaking news on the shidduch crisis would seem more relevant.”
Not to derail this awesome Chabad war that you started, but I’ve always been confused on your stance with the shidduch crisis. You generally seem presented as a modern, presumably college-educated guy. The shidduch crisis only requires the most remedial understanding of exponential growth to be able to understand its proof. Nobody with a genuine secular education should be questioning the reality of the shidduch crisis. People who can barely write full sentences maybe get a pass.
Chabad would have us walk around thinking instead of the boundless love Hashem has for us, and the feeling of being in His warm embrace….we should focus on the love that their deceased rebbe has for…us….how does he even know we exist? They don’t show niftarim everything in olam haba; only things they are privy to, and family, etc..
The level of being meshtatef Hashem with a human being is on full idolatrous display here folks.
Unless the Lubavitcher rebbe and god are synonymous….
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