December 18, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #839266
moi aussi, I agree with your statement below! Embarassing people, making blood rush to the face is like killing. No one has explained how any of this is l’toeles, and whether a Rov was consulted.
“People (Jothar & co) complain of chilul Shabbes, but they don’t know that shaming someone in public is worse than chilul Shabbes. Will they ever learn how to handle things privately?”
Sometimes I think mods are a bunch of teenagers on a pleasure/ego trip.December 18, 2011 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #839267
What a smart way to be Mekarev a lost Jewish soul who’s posting on Shabbos….
This troller seems to be a troublemaker and an obnoxious person. If indeed s/he is posting on Shabbos, then s/he is an OTD person because there is too much knowledge there about yiddishkeit. Or perhaps people think this person is frum but posts on Shabbos – like there are “frum” people who text on Shabbos. Being polite about the chilul Shabbos isn’t going to be “mekarev” her/him. And calling him on this behavior isn’t going to make the situation any worse nor make him decide to continue being MSDecember 18, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #839268always hereParticipant
I absolutely agree that things should be handled behind the scenes!!!December 18, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #839269
flowers: “Being polite about the chilul Shabbos isn’t going to be “mekarev” her/him. And calling him on this behavior isn’t going to make the situation any worse nor make him decide to continue being MS”
Lets focus on what has been proven to help OTD people- behind the scenes hand-holding by experienced Kiruv professioanls, NEVER EVER embarassing anyone in public. Thats the modus operandi of immature know-nothing trigger-happy brats.December 18, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #839270
I would think this is the perfect place to call attention to this behavior. This place has potential to be completely anonymous, and can make him/her just enough embarrassed to make him change without actually making it hard for him to face people. And if the behavior is corrected, then nobody need know about it at all.December 18, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #839271
At this point the user claims he/she/they is/are not mechallel shabbos. What has trying to “prove” to them how smart we are by tracking time stamps and ip adresses (that can be spoofed) and “proving” the chillul shabbos accomplished?December 18, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #839272
flowers, NO WAY! (“This place has potential to be completely anonymous, and can make him/her just enough embarrassed to make him change”).
A Nechtiger Tug. We never know how anonymous anything is, because mods have access to ALL email addresses and who knows what else…
You might have the best intentions, but I strongly doubt any Rov would allow embrassing of any kind, anywhere! Thats the childish route.December 18, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #839273moi aussiMember
In this week’s Parshas Vayeshev Rashi says:
Noach lo le’adam sheyapiluhu lekivshan ha’esh ve’al yalbin pnei chaveiro berabim (perek 38 pasuk 25)
Better for man to be thrown into a fiery furnace than to shame his fellow in public.December 18, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #839274
For anyone’s information,
When one is ridiculed, be it anonymously, he/she still feels the very acute pain and anguish of shame and embarrassment. There is definitely “Halbonas Panim”, maybe not in front of a tzibur, but still red hot.
This should certainly come into consideration when interacting / communicating with others.
Remember ????? ????? ??? ????? and in this case the keyboard.
Literally.December 19, 2011 12:52 am at 12:52 am #839275
Rav Avigdor Milelr ZT”L and many other gedolim used to organize shemiras shabbos walks up and down the main thoroughfares of Brooklyn to protest chillul shabbos.December 19, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #839276passfanMember
If you’re talking about the Kings Highway Annual Shabbos parade, it was and is to encourage shops to close on Shabbos via encouragement.December 19, 2011 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #839279
Jothar. Those were not, and are still not, protest marches. Those are marches to encourage shmiras shabbos.December 20, 2011 3:54 am at 3:54 am #839280
Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”l used to say that a major cause of the Holocaust was the major chillul shabbos in europe. The troll in question is not a tinok shenishba. Nobody knows who he is, so it’s hard to say there was biyush berabbim, as nobody knows who he is.December 20, 2011 4:28 am at 4:28 am #839281
jothar, “The troll in question is not a tinok shenishba. Nobody knows who he is, so it’s hard to say there was biyush berabbim, as nobody knows who he is”.
Irrelevant! Blood rushed to his face for naught. A bunch of teenagery nuts here, fantasizing that mocking will change anyone for the better. Hahefech!!! Just the opposite! It will change for the worse! What are some of you smoking?December 20, 2011 7:22 am at 7:22 am #839282
Jothar: I thought I wrote in English. No?
Secondly, ????? ???? ????, the ways of the Torah are sweet. The way TO the Torah, and Torah life too. Especially now-days. One cruel, biting word can be fatal. Ask Gedolim. Real Gedolim.December 21, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #839283
It seems pashut that if a troll knows he was caught posting on shabbos, he might decide not to post on shabbos for risk of being caught.
It’s malbin pnei cheveiro berabbim. If someone is called out and nobody knows, it’s not a violation.December 21, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #839284soliekMember
im not seeing a problem…posting on an obviously frum forum where shabbos is observed is chillul shabbos b’farhesya. the OP was being moche…if you see someone IRL being mechallel shabbos b’farhesya who should know better (anyone who posts here knows what shabbos is, and how we feel about it) i sincerely hope you would be moche.December 21, 2011 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #839285
Furthermore, what I said was very mild- just asking why he would want to post here. Not exactly doche beshtei yadayim. The harsh words used against me by trolls and their sympathizers were much stronger, and much more likely to be halbanas panim. Why should a mechalel shabbos troll be treated better than a shomer shabbos yid? Is it because he’s a troll as well as a shomer shabbos? His embarrassment is simply the boshes ganav ki yimatzei. ZK, Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L was very much the real gadol. Joseph can back me up on this.December 21, 2011 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #839286
Jothar – You are talking to Joseph.December 21, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #839287
rb – wasn’t he talking to zk?December 21, 2011 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #839288BTGuyParticipant
This is another one of those threads putting people on thin ice.
And when you consider the up-side or constructiveness to all these posts (zero), I think the moderators should close this; but they probably won’t.
Even if someone does wrong, and I am not saying they are or arent, where is it in the TOS of the coffee room to tar and feather someone again?
Frankly, if the site can be posted on during Shabbos, then culpability rests with the site as well.
Do you want to stop people from going to shul if they are not 100% frum yet? Do you want to not sell kosher food to someone who does not make brachos or always eat kosher? Do you not want to invite nonreligious relatives to simchas? The list goes on and on.
On top of that, if, chas v’shalom it is a yeshiva bochur or someone going off the derech, do you want to be hating on them privately or publicly??
This is a coffee room and not the legislative branch of government. We have to be careful.December 21, 2011 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #839289
syag – I thought he was talking to passfan.December 22, 2011 4:14 am at 4:14 am #839290
A mechalel shabbos is a mumar lechol hatorah kula, and, according to Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L, is causing the next Holocaust. At least a mild mecha’aah is in order. This was a mild mecha’ah.December 22, 2011 5:10 am at 5:10 am #839291
Jothar, are you interested in the “troll” or in the “Mechalel Shabbos” r”l? No. Don’t get me wrong. Chilul Shabbos is priority #1 by us. No question whatsoever. However, your style of attacking (however covert and underhanded), is starting to have a negative affect on all of us. I thought CR was something entirely different. When I “fell in” (joined), this was such a warm “home away from home”. Really. Such camaraderie. Friendship. Achdus. Compassionately helping one another. What a warm feeling. Does anyone here remember Eclipse and her saga. How we were all in it together. Nothing like that today. It has turned into a cold place. Accusations. Finger pointing. Suspicions.
How I long for the days of old. I picked out a screen name then, to what I perceived the CR to be, and what I wanted to be. Frightening to think what I would have chosen, had I joined NOW.December 22, 2011 5:20 am at 5:20 am #839292
ZeesKite, you said that beautifully!
Any chance that the fingerpointing, negativity and ugly accusations will end anytime soon? Otherwise we ought to call this place The Yerida World (downwards spiral).December 22, 2011 5:21 am at 5:21 am #839293
and Jothar, I don’t think Rav Miller ??”? said the chilul Shabbos itself was the cause. I think he said it was the rapid deterioration of Yiddishkeit in Europe (or elsewhere) in general. Chilul Shabbos is a key element to Yiddishkeit, and he observed it personally, that’s why he pointed out Shabbos.
(reading your last post seems to me that you’re actually slightly ridiculing this great Godol, sarcastically. I surely hope that’s not the case.)December 22, 2011 5:22 am at 5:22 am #839294BSDMember
ZeesKite-“Frightening to think what I would have chosen, had I joined NOW.”
What are some of the choices? The mods can always add it on to your sub title.December 22, 2011 5:27 am at 5:27 am #839295
“However, your style of attacking (however covert and underhanded), is starting to have a negative affect on all of us”
And I still believe that people who attack him are much more negative, sharp, forthright and unfortunately not always accurate about what he said. If you let his comments go unanswered they usually don’t spiral. Can we please try that just once?!?!? PLEASEDecember 22, 2011 7:43 am at 7:43 am #839296moi aussiMember
Syag, you sound like the devil’s advocate.December 22, 2011 11:53 am at 11:53 am #839297
Why are we discussing this? Are we trying to help someone with shmiras shabbos? If not, why don’t we just start a thread ridiculing all non shomer shabbos jews. If the moderators are so concerned perhaps ammend the TOS that mechalleli shabbos are not allowed to post into CR and such posts are simply not approved.December 22, 2011 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #8392982scentsParticipant
Whats the benefit of telling everyone that one poster is a Mechalel Shabbos?
I am sure that you have that posters email address, so send him/her a warning.December 22, 2011 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #839299
Why are we discussing this? Are we trying to help someone with shmiras shabbos? If not, why don’t we just start a thread ridiculing all non shomer shabbos jews. If the moderators are so concerned perhaps ammend the TOS that mechalleli shabbos are not allowed to post into CR and such posts are simply not approved.December 22, 2011 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #839300
Sometimes those who are aggresive and lash out at strangers, not l’toeles, are doing so because they cant lash out at the source of aggravation at home.
Attn Accusers, Insinuators, Nitpickers, Overly nasty “straighten out the world-types” on senseless missions, and all those who “see the world through black glasses”, with a negative bend:
Its therapy time. Doesnt hurt. Can only help. It might change you into sweet, sensitive and caring… and that will be effective and l’toeles.December 22, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #839301
moi – not at all, just really desperate for an end to the harshness. I don’t even care who’s right, I just wish it could be done politely.December 23, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #839303
Most of the mechallelei shabbos are, in a certain sense, tinokos shenishbu. There are also rebellious teenagers who view shabbos desecration as a form of rebellion. They aren’t posting here. The person in question clearly is beyond that point, and clearly knows better. This isn’t just someone who will be leaving the radio on with headphones over shabbos to hear the game, which, while wrong, and not in the spirit of shabbos at all, is at least not a deoraysa. This is someone logging onto a frum forum and participating. He knows that the Torah says mechaleleha mos yumas, knows that Shabbos guards us more than we guard the Shabbos, and yet, he is mechalel shabbos. This is as bemeizid as you can get. Thus the mild rebuke of etzba smal docheik that is supposed to be this thread.December 23, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #839304
In other words, you or the moderators have positively identified “the troll”, know his background, how he was raised, his former and current level of observance.
If that’s the case, I certainly cant disagree with anything you say on this subject.December 23, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #839305
You can learn a lot about a person by how he posts. The halacha is that if someone has knowledge about yiddishkeit he is not a tinok shenishba. The poster is clearly informed on a lot of frum issues, and is not a tinok shenishba. That makes the poster a meizid.December 23, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #839306HaLeiViParticipant
Yeah, I figured it’s all just about “the troll”. It’s sounds pretty one-track minded to me.
I said, as did others, that you are Mechuyav to be Dan Lekaf Zchus and think up scenarios, or believe the ones that were given, and not to depend on certain proofs for such a terrible accusation. When you call that sticking up for a Mechalel Shabbos, and a personal attack against the accuser, does that not sound like a grinding ax?December 23, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #839307
I know a lot about christianity, am I a former member of the church?
You are making a lot of assumptions and leaps, but if you are comfortable with them, can’t disagree with you.December 24, 2011 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #839308
So Mods, Was there a mechalel shabbos this week?December 25, 2011 4:01 am at 4:01 am #839309
Apy, the halacha is the a mechalel shabbos is not a yid halachicly. there are heteirim for a tinok shenishba, which don’t apply if the person in question has contact with frum Jews. You don’t need any great lomdus here. Someone who knows from Orthodoxy and decides “no” is a mechalel shabbos.
There is a second nafka mina, that one is not allowed the be mechalel shabbos to save the life of a mechalel shabbos. So if anyone know who it is, they must inform hatzalah not to be mechalel shabbos for him.December 25, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #839310
I know a lot about christianity, am I a former member of the church?
Your question doesn’t prove anything, since most of us don’t know enough about that religion nor the knowledge that YOU know to answer the question.
However, whether or not we should be calling attention to this behavior, there is no doubt whatsoever that this person was brought up in a frum environment.December 25, 2011 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #839311
Jothar. The man from U.N.C.L.E.
Ever hear of spoofing an IP address (it is something Trolls would do)? Ever hear of a static IP address? Not everyone uses DHCP as efficient as it is. One can ask their ISP for a static IP. I have a static IP address from my wireless provider, and can be anywhere in the world with my blackberry, as far as I know, with the same IP address (certainly anywhere in the USA or Canada). The “evidence” you have is flimsy, but if you are comfortable with it, call the local Australian Hatzala and tell them not to answer his or her call on shabbos.December 25, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #839312ayshosheeParticipant
there are people in different time zones like in eretz yisroel people are not going to wait until its 12:30 so they keep “extra” shabbos time cuz theyre not being michalel shabbos just saying…December 25, 2011 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #839313
Flowers. One can learn much from google, including plenty about yiddishkeit. But that is irrelevent. There is an assumption of guilt because the men from U.N.C.L.E. traced an IP address despite the fact that such things can easily be spoofed.December 26, 2011 12:10 am at 12:10 am #839314
apushatayid: I don’t understand why you are arguing about this. It is very clear this person grew up in a frum environment. Google can teach about Judaism, but the way s/he talks isn’t just knowledge about Yiddishkeit. It is totally the way a frum person would talk. And this troller admitted that s/he is (or at least was at that time) in Australia!December 26, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #839315cantgetitMember
flowers, s/he also clearly denied that s/he ever posted on Shabbos. What evidence do you have other than the admins hearsay? And considering the admins admitted errors in previous accusations here, I’d say that hearsay isn’t worth the pixels on the screen used to make these terrible accusations!December 26, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #839316
cantgetit: I never said s/he posted on Shabbos.December 26, 2011 1:00 am at 1:00 am #839317
Its not a big deal to learn how to speak “frum”. Hang out on sites like this one long enough, and one can pass themself off as anything they wish.December 26, 2011 4:13 am at 4:13 am #839318
I highly doubt it.
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