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  • #839319

    Jothar
    Member

    APY, exactly. The halacha is that one is amechalel shabbos UNLESS they are tinok shenishba. Reb Moshe ZT”L ruled that once a person is exposed to frum Jews, there IS no heter if tinok shenishba. So by definition of being here, we know he is not a tinok shenishba.

    #839320

    stamamen
    Member

    That is assuming he really is a mechallel shabbos. An assumption that is predicated upon many fault lines.

    #839321

    flowers
    Participant

    The Rambam says: “However the children and the grandchildren of these errants, whose parents have misled them, those who have been born among the Karaites, who have reared them in their views; each is like a child who has been taken captive among them, who has been reared by them, and is not alacritous in seizing the paths of the commandments; his status is comparable to that of one who has been coerced. Even though he later learns that he is a Jew and becomes acquainted with Jews and [the Jewish] religion, he is nevertheless to be regarded as a person who is coerced, for he was reared in the erroneous ways [of his parents]…”

    Jothar: According to what the Rambam says, what you said is totally wrong.

    I don’t know what R’ Moshe says but it’s certainly more than what you wrote Jothar. If a tinok shenishba is expose to a frum Jew from speaking him 2 minutes on the phone, does he lose that status? What about seeing a Jew for two minutes? Doesn’t make any sense.

    You also can’t decide that being exposed to a frum web site is equivalent to being exposed to Frum Jews.

    #839322

    cinderella
    Member

    I kept my mouth shut this whole time because I think this thread is pointless but I feel I have to say something now.

    Nobody here knows anything. Everything you are saying is pure speculation based on circumstantial evidence. And even if you do have solid proof that someone is being Mechallel Shabbos, this thread will do nothing to help/stop him/her.

    You don’t know the background of the poster you all think is being Mechallel Shabbos. You don’t know whether he/she is Jewish, frum, or a tinok shenishba. This thread is pointless as we don’t know all the information.

    So stop playing detective and move on.

    #839323

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I heard in the name of the Chazon Ish that although, technically, one who encountered real udaism cannot be considered a inuk henishba anymore, these days are different. People are brought up with anti-Torah sentiments and they an’t be blaimed for that.

    As to this situation I’m in full agreement with Cinderella.

    #839324

    Jothar
    Member

    Nobody was singled out, no name was mentioned.

    So mima nafshach- if nobody was mechalel shabbos (as unlikely as it seems) then nobody is embarrased. If someone was, then he is a mechallel shabbos. This is VERY light rebuke for such a issur chamur that defines whether or not someone is Orthodox.

    #839325

    flowers
    Participant

    Jothar: I agree

    #839326

    Jothar
    Member

    Here is the teshuiva of Rav Yehuda Herzl Henkin on the subject:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20023&st=&pgnum=110

    He makes it clear that “tinok shenishba” is over-applied today.

    #839327

    apushatayid
    Participant
    #839328

    Doswin
    Member

    Actually the accused poster was clearly identified when the mods said he was from Australia and then subtitled a poster as “aussie”. And considering the evidence as stated was only a post on the borderline erev shabbos and borderline motzei shabbos and there being about only a 24 hour difference betweenthe two posts, so the assumption being one of themmust have been on shabbos, it is somewhat unconvincing.

    #839329

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Wow! Look what the Belzer Rebbe said this week:

    _ _ _

    I think public condemnation on a board and hints to someone who posts are embarassing and certainly NOT gentle, and damaging at the end because it incites to go in the other direction, and therefore almost as wrong as Chilul Shabbos itself.

    #839330

    Jothar
    Member

    apy, I’m not the detective here- the mods were. I just heard about it and made a very mild, milquetoast micha’ah. I don’t know who he is, and I don’t want to know who he is. Chillul shabbos is a serious aveirah. If we protest chalav stam and the Beacon here, kol shekein chillul shabbos.

    #839331

    moi aussi
    Member

    Jothar, you don’t have to have the last word, unless you can admit that you made a mistake.

    #839332

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So, I hope the moderators have followed up on their brilliant detective work and have alerted the appropriate people.

    Why the moderators shared this info with you is puzzling given that they are (almost always) very careful as it relates to lashon hara and rechilus and it served no toeles to tell you their suspicion and it led you to post it publicly which resulted in the fingering of a particular user as a mechallel shabbos, something which that user denies.

    #839333

    Jothar
    Member

    Shemiras shabbos is no mistake.

    We all agree that shemiras shabbos vs chillul shabbos defines an Orthodox Jew, and that a mechallel shabbos is denying that Hashem runs the world. The only things we’re arguing about is:

    1. Is it somehow possible for shabbos to be twenty-four hours instead of 25, and

    2. Was my mecha’ah mild enough.

    Shabbos is almost 25 hours from shkiyah one day to tzeis the next day. So this was chillul shabbos. Chutch a mild, milquetoast mecha’ah was in order. I certainly didn’t say who it was. I thought about how to make the mecha’ah, and this was the most mild way I could think of. To say nothing was impossible. This is chillul shabbos we’re talking about, not coming to davening after korbanos. When people came to America, many shomrei shabbos got fired every week. There is no need for that here, and someone is still mechallel shabbos on a frum discussion board?

    It’s time for the yad yemin mekareiv, though.

    #839334

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The only things we’re arguing about is:”

    You keep ignoring….

    One can spoof an IP address.

    You can keep changing your IP address by logging in and out of free proxy websites that are a dime a dozen online.

    2 friends can share a log in ID and be on opposite ends of the world. Yes, it might be against the YWN TOS, but it can easily be done.

    Nobody has any issues with you stading up for kavod shabbos. What I, and others, take issue with, is the labeling of a specific user as a mechallel shabbos based on the flimsiest of evidence, despite the denials of this user.

    #839335

    Doswin
    Member

    How many hours and minutes *exactly* were there between the Friday post and the Saturday evening post?

    #839336

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I am pretty sure the poster identified himself. I had no idea who was being pointed to until one of the trollish type personalities started insisting it wasn’t him. Over and over. To the extent that I couldn’t figure out why he thought it was funny to do so. Had he been quiet, maybe nobody would have thought of him. And either way, I still have no clue who he is. Or even IF he is. So can we be done now? We can talk about laundry, or which chocolate coins are roundest, or what color patterns your kids made from their candles each night . . . the possibilities are endless.

    #839337

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can keep changing your IP address by logging in and out of free proxy websites that are a dime a dozen online.

    That would be $0.008333333333333333, which, I guess, is close enough to free. 😉

    #839338

    Doswin
    Member

    The poster only identified himself after a mod mentioned the so-called MS was posting from Australia AND then subtitled that poster as “Aussie”. So it was obvious who was being called out before said poster vigerously denied and protested being called a MS.

    #839339

    Jothar
    Member

    There are 4 billion ip addresses. The odds of 2 people sharing an ip address within a 24 hour period is…less than the odds of winning the Powerball jackpot. Sorry not a math guy. The other scenarios mentioned are highly implausible, and just slightly more likely than winning the lottery.

    I never identified anybody. My mecha’ah was perfectly justified and well-measured.

    #839340

    tactful
    Member

    A person that is mechalel shabbos doesn’t speak like this;-

    I find it impossible to believe this poster is a mechallel shabbos given the lack of evidence you mods fail to put forward..slightly corrupt. I agree with ciderella, this is funny in a very pathetic way,-I expected better of you mods! I know this post won’t make it through, and it just goes to show what you guys are protesting about is absolutely baseless….

    “Half

    ::::QT Aussie Troll::::

    I honestly don’t know who this Jemmapuddleduck poster is… Mods what are you trying to cause over here????

    I was enjoying this site and gained alot here, however If you don’t want me here for whatever reason just say it outright, don’t try to kill me in all sorts of ways.. Which you have inevitably already done! I tried keeping the peace earlier in a different thread however this constant friction is too hard for me to bear… I am not used to this sort of aggression… please take your anger and frustration elsewhere until it subsides..

    I really don’t mind being called a troll when I’m not and try my best not to be, being acused of having other screan names when I don’t, being called a ‘cute Aussie’ I’d say was parevly fine, But when I am being accused of being mechalel shabbos that is too much for me to handle! May this false accusation be a kapparah for all my aveiros and may all my tefilos be answered bekorov in this merrit! Amen!!

    cinderella

    If the shoefits…. -“This is funny in a very pathetic way.”

    when bar kamsa was at the party and the rich man embarresed him in public for no reason what bothered him the most was that noone else bothered to stand up for him! they just stood by in amusement and thought it was funny in a very pathetic way!! & that’s what inevitably caused the destruction of the beis hamikdash. sorry to break it to you cinderrella and others but tzinus chinum is a very serious matter and shouldn’t be taken lightly!

    Posted 1 week ago #”

    #839341

    tactful
    Member

    this half poster doesn’t seem to care what you are accusing him of..-so prehaps he is a mechalel…who knows.. he seemingly is upset about the lack of derech eretz you guys are formalating around here..

    #839342

    Jothar
    Member

    I know places that use public ip’s like 192.192.192.x for their internal network. While this is highly un-recommended, I did the math. the ods of their 100 internal ip’s clashing are 100/4 billion, or 10 over 400 million, or 1 in 40 million. So the odds of 2 different people in two completely different time zones (because otherwise, there is chillul shabbos) sharing the exact same ip within 24 hours is a miut she’eino matzui klal. The shevus yaakov defines it as less than a 10% probability, so a 2 in 4 billion possibility definitely meets his criteria. The odds of it NOT being chillul shabbos are incredibly flimsy.

    #839343

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The odds of two people using the same proxy are actually pretty high. Please stop practising IPology, you’re not good at it.

    #839344

    apushatayid
    Participant

    You just don’t get it. You can spoof an IP address. You can share that information with all your friends.

    The point is, you (the moderators) have the flimsiest of evidence to label someone a mechalel shabbos yet did so.

    I’m not certain evidence was offered that this user was even a troll.

    In all likelihood this person is back on YWN with another IP address and another username reading this and laughing at how we are still talking about this.

    #839345

    Jothar
    Member

    Haleivi, please show me the math of how likely it is that two people, in completely different parts of the world, would share the EXACT SAME ip address within a 24-hour window between Friday and shabbos. I took statistics in college, and the odds against it are 1/(4 billion -1) + 1 (4 billion -1), so the odds of it occurring are those 2 numbers multiplied out. The odds of this not being chillul shabbos are still small enough as to be effectively nill.

    APY, of course the troll is still posting here, and probably using different ip addresses to boot. I just wanted him to know that Chillul shabbos is not cool. He might be more careful not to post on shabbos. Or he’ll cover his tracks better to hide his shameful chillul shabbos. Either way I had to make a mecha’ah, if a very mild one at that. I have no idea who it is, and I don’t want to know.

    #839346

    Doswin
    Member

    When I lived in Lakewood I had one of the frum internet providers and I know they assigned all their users the same ip address, including my parents in NY had the same ip I had in NJ. Other internet providers do the same, even though it isn’t the most common method. So, yes, it is quite possible and very reasonable that two or more users share an ip. Even if they live in different cities.

    So one guy might have been in Melbourne and another in another Australian city with a earlier or later Zman Shabbos. Hence the 25 hour difference.

    Although, we still don’t know the *exact* alleged difference in hours and minutes between the Friday and Sat. Night post.

    #839347

    apushatayid
    Participant

    This is the last thing I’ll say about this.

    I applaud your stand against chillul shabbos, however, it shouldn’t come at the expense of labeling someone a mechallel shabbos on the flimsiest of evidence.

    The only troll I plan on talking about now, is the one from the 3 billy goats gruff.

    #839348

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Jothar, I had the same IP as “big fish”, since we both used the same mobile application that used the same proxy. Real-Brisker had it, too. In the past, I’ve been labeled on this site for as long as it took the staff to figure that out. Until that point my posts were manipulated to make me look dishonest. It has happened on this site a couple of years before that, as well — as “big fish” pointed out at the time.

    #839349

    Jothar
    Member

    A post at 9AM on a Friday here is 12 midnight Friday night/Shabbos morning in Australia. An hour here or there won’t make a difference. Yes, Doswin, people share ip’s, but NY and NJ are in the same general area. Your kosher internet provider may have a dhcp server with a set block of ip addresses. A dhcp server in Belgium has a different block, and one in Australia has a third block. 2 people in completely different regions of the world don’t share the same public ip. The ONLY solution is to say that 2 posters with the same style, 1 in the US and one in australia, shared the same ip somehow through spoofing or other means. So to say that maybe 2 posters from across the world happened to spoof the exact same ip and shared the same account, and therefore I can’t protest chillul shabbos, is like saying shema bemakom nekev nikeiv, and has been amply answered in Chullin dafim 10-12.

    #839350

    moi aussi
    Member

    Jothar, you say you have no idea who it is, but yet you’re calculating when it’s Shabbes in Australia, whilst someone has been given the subtitle Aussie. You’re convinced that you’re doing something Leshem Shamayim, but most of us think differently. You’re not endearing yourself, neither to us, nor to the Ribono Shel Olam. Your motives are not genuine, so stop twisting and turning, nobody is impressed.

    #839351

    tactful
    Member

    My email address has emails coming in at 9:00 in the morning, I know since they come through on my phone. And they say that they’ve come through at 4 in the afternoon. I wanted to see if my emailing system was just downloading them *extremely* slowly.. I was concerned also since I was getting emails from frum people “on shabbos”-so I decided to be dan lekaf zechus & check out my side of things by emailing myself from a different account, I did and it came up onto my inbox as a totally different time of day.. people aren’t perfect, and that is precisely why the systems formed by the human hand is nowhere near the handywork of hakodosh baruch hu. everyone makes mistakes. there is nothing wrong with it as long as you can recognise where the issues are within yourself and rectify them. if you can’t apologise and are always placing the blame on others there is some serious work there to be done. There is no harm in man saying sorry. Mods you are doing a wonderful job in the constant maintanance of the site, however You are not G-d.

    #839352

    stamamen
    Member

    It’s okay if Jothar or the mods are moida they made a big ta’os. They guy denied it and the evidence is flimsy.

    #839353

    2scents
    Participant

    This would have been a non-issue. Jothar made a comment. so what?

    #839354

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Jothar: “I never identified anybody. My mecha’ah was perfectly justified and well-measured”.

    Justified and well- measured based on which posek? Please offer name.

    “Just” as justified and well- measured as Charedis who spit at chilonis.

    #839355

    Jothar
    Member

    Posts here aren’t emails. They don’t work in the same “store-and-forward” method that email queues use.

    #839356

    Jothar
    Member

    Azoi.is, my mecha’ah was justified and well-,measured based on the possuk of hocheich tochiach velo sisa. As interpreted by the Chofetz Chaim, this means don’t embarrass someone. I never singled anyone out, and never embarrased anyone. Nobody was cornered. So my rav was the Chofetz Chaim.

    #839357

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    I don’t know what exactly Jothar is going on here that he is so certain that there was Chilul Shabbos Chas V’Shalom. Here is what I have found.

    There was a poster called Ice-cream uscream we all…. His last post before being blocked was:

    Friday 2011/11/18 00:07:25 NY Time, that is 12:07am Friday morning in NY. The post is at:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/petition-to-ignore-a-certain-someone?#post-324948

    I will not post the exact IP to protect his/her privacy. But this is what I found on http://whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookup

    Country: Australia

    State/Region: Victoria

    City: Melbourne

    ISP: OPTUS INTERNET – RETAIL

    According to:

    http://www.myzmanim.com/

    Shkia was 8:12pm on Friday 11/18/2011 in Melbourne, of course this can change based on exact location.

    According to:

    http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/difference.html?p1=152

    Melbourne is 16 hours ahead then NY,.

    Perhaps it was only 15 because of Daylight Savings Time so 12:07am in NY would be 4:07pm Friday afternoon in Melbourne, way before the 8:12pm shkia. If there was no DST then it would be 5:07pm, also before shkia. It is summer Down Under and Shabbos starts late.

    What Jothar and Mod007 might have been referring to was the fact that there are often posts from similar IPs Saturday morning NY time, around 9:30am, this would be around 2:30am Sunday morning Motzei Shabbos in Australia which is way after Shabbos is over as well.

    So as far as I’m concerned there has been no known Chillul Shabbos.

    Acquitted of all charges of Chillul Shabbos!

    Still guilty of being an annoying troll 🙂

    #839358

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    For the record, as far as I can tell, none of the “Aussie Trolls” have the same IP address, they all have similar IPs (same prefix), and all point to Melbourne, Australia according to the lookup but they all have different IPs. The posters themselves change their own IP often as well so it seems he/she/they are using a service that is constantly switching IPs. This could be a normal ISP thing or they might be using a library or something. This is very normal, nothing suspicious about it.

    Jothar was ASSUMING that these “Aussie Trolls” were all using the same IP, when you assume…

    I still think that they are all the same person or few people considering their very similar style.

    #839359

    real-brisker
    Member

    tactful – this half poster… YOU MEAN YOURSELF?

    #839360

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Jothar: “So my rav was the Chofetz Chaim”

    Every single situation is different. They have a call-in number. Id speak to a live Rov and explain what you have proof of, what you plan on doing or saying, and what the chance of change/improvement/effectiveness is. Then I’d move on that advice. Its not that simple. You make it clear that there was no live Rov involved when you shot those hurtful accusatory words.

    #839361

    moi aussi
    Member

    Jothar wrote:

    I hear from the mods that they have pretty solid evidence that one of the trolls here is a mechalel shabbos.

    Did he hear this or didn’t he??????

    #839363

    BTGuy
    Participant

    We seriously need to chill out on this tar and feathering/ online pogrom business.

    As of recent date, the site is batting zero (0 for 2) on the most publicized cases. Yet, they were pursued, against warnings, with the utmost conviction and determination.

    Mechila is in order again.

    While I am not saying you agree with me at all, thank you YW Moderator 42 for looking into this complex thing and explaining it with clarity.

    #839364

    Why has this thread run on so long?

    #839365

    moi aussi
    Member

    If the mods knew there was no chilul Shabbos involved, why did they allow Jothar to rave and rant about a mechalel Shabbosnik? And why was an Australian poster put to shame?

    #839366

    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    Why has this thread run on so long?

    It might prevent a reoccurence of Kol Halbin es Pnai Chaveiro…and Lashon Hara.

    #839367

    Azolis, the thread seems to be perpetuating the LH and malbin pnai chaveiro, not preventing it.

    #839368

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    moi aussi:

    Jothar wrote:

    I hear from the mods that they have pretty solid evidence that one of the trolls here is a mechalel shabbos.

    Did he hear this or didn’t he??????

    He thought he heard it. Jothar hears what he wants to hear. He assumes that Joseph is a mechalel Shabbos. He assumes Joseph is the Aussie Troll. He assumes that moi aussi is Joseph. He hears that there are posts “on Shabbos” (NY time) by the Aussie Troll and moi aussi. So he puts it all together into a story that he likes which is that Joseph is sitting in Brooklyn posting on Shabbos.

    As far as I know, this is not the case. Joseph may be many things but, as far as I know, a mechalel Shabbos is B”H not one of them. As far as I know, Joseph is not the Aussie Troll, nor is he moi aussi, nor are those two the same person. As far as I know, Joseph has not been posting in over a month, yet Jothar continues to see him in every thread.

    That being said, I still don’t understand why people here were defending chillul Shabbos. To say that it didn’t happen is one thing (and probably correct), but to defend it is still very wrong.

    #839369

    YW Moderator-007
    Moderator

    Wow, Mod 42, I was reading that 00:07:25 as 7:25am instead of 12:25am. You are correct, none of the posts I thought might be on Shabbos were. I apologize to Half. Please be mochel me for suspecting you of chillul Shabbos. I was trying to be dan lchaf zchus that maybe you woke up in the middle of the night and started posting without realizing the day but this is a much better explanation. Sorry again. Troll on…

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