The Most Severe Issue of All
- This topic has 37 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 8 months ago by eclipse.
July 20, 2010 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #591998
So it may seem weird that im writing this on Tisha Bav but baruch hashem i live in Israel and its almost over so i have energy and daas to write this. After flipping thru this forum/coffee room today i actually started to feel a little bit of Tisha Baav becuase some things in here are so ridiculous and not important at all to our peoples avodas hashem…..it seems to me from YWN Coffee Room and the rest of the american world that jews are now in ranks…..top rank is yeshivish , blackberry, from new york type person….i would really like to know when that started , and why we cant accept other jews as being on their level – a baal teshuvah is a neboch that u speak to in a sympathetic voice and a ger is someone that is really cool but you would never let ur children marry. Tisha Bav is a really intense day and its not easy to connect but lets try to connect to every jew no matter how diff. he looks from you. jewish top ranked life has now become a clean shaven blackberry owner with a yarmulke on and what else?where are the appreciations for old time chassidic avodah………where is the temimus and peshitus of Klal Yisroel ,why is there so much pressure on teenagers…….i was a teenager and now im between the age of 20 and 23 and grew up a teen in NY with all the upstate wal mart things and black hat by davening………please people why are you starting a topic about black hats…..do you want to feel good when someone replies to your topic like yea wow he’s so right..lets stop looking at the negativities…….everything like topics like the one about black hats and walmart and tzniyus……..look only at the good things and any good thing you can find in a jew…there always is. My tip to parents who have teens…..i know the shidduch thing in NY is nuts right now but dont put so much pressure on your children…..they will get married even if they go to Wal Mart or miss a davening with a black hat(davening is about connecting to G-d not connecting to rules by your yeshiva)Hashem sits everyday and makes zivugim and hashem knows that the person did teshuvah and who is right for who and isnt going to call the shadchan and tell her not to do the shidduch because the mother wears a robe to the shabbos table. Today the Beis Hamidash was destroyed and the shechina left us……we lost our connection to Hashem and we want it back……deep down we really do no matter how much NY is in us…….so lets just look at the good points of all jews and im looking at the good points of YWN Coffee Room to trust me but i felt that i needed to write this……just chill and believe in G-d not your next door neighbor.May the Beis Hamikdash be soon rebuilt!July 20, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #696036bptParticipant
“believe in G-d not your next door neighbor”
What a GREAT line. thanks for the post AsterixJuly 20, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #696037emoticon613Member
amen!!!July 20, 2010 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #696038aries2756Participant
Ahavas Yisroel, Amen!!!!July 20, 2010 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #696039
Ahavas Yisroel is vitally important, however lets not forget that we have 613 mitzvos and we must keep those with all of their Halachos. There are some people who just care about Ahavas Yisroel but forget about the rest of the mitzvos, that wont bring Moshiach. Listening to Hashem means doing ALL His Mitzvos whether it is convenient for you or not.July 20, 2010 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #696040philosopherMember
Sorry that I’m going to pour cold water here, but it makes me wonder why other people think they DO have a right to judge others whom they don’t agree with. Let’s say I do think it’s important to talk about tznius and other issues, why does someone feel they have to judge me for THAT?
In addition Astrix, if you TRULY meant to be non-judgemental (but it fell flat, because you did judge others) then I would expect such a post that could make others state their opinion rather forcefully (I hope you realized that from other threads) be written any other day than Tisha Ba’Av. Or at least it should’ve been written more respectfully if you would like to teach others v’ahavta lreiecha kemoicha.July 20, 2010 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #696041fabieMember
I think the first issue is honesty in business practices.
1. Nasata venatata beemunah.July 20, 2010 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #696042philosopherMember
Let’s understand the basics of Judaism. Unfortunately, the liberal world we are in has completely mixed up the yoitzeras so we don’t understand that acceptence of sin and respectful of people’s sinful choices is an abhorrance to God AND does NOT make us love our fellow Jews.
In the goyishe world, any sin is accepted. From the Islamic countries who preach hate and that murder of infidels is admirable, to America where immorality is rampant and accepted. Do people love each other more because of that? NO, NO and NO again! Even the liberal, accept-everyone’s-behaviour type of people who accept even the Muslims who preach hate have no love for religious people with ideals. A large segment of these liberals, maybe eventhe majority, hate religious people, especially those who publicaly take a stand for values.
Not to compare what is here an attempt of ahavs Yisroel, however acceptance of sin has leads us to become complacent and if we become complacent of sin then it could lead us or the next generation to sin. We must uphold REAL Jewish values AT ALL COSTS!
Let’s remember that the first Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of geloy aroyas, which being untznius eventually leads to, because of murder, (which recently a murderer in our midst got unfortunately a nice burial and that shows acceptance,) or idolatry, which is any excess materialism that takes away our potential of spiritual growth and connection to the Ribonno Shel Oilam. There is absolutely nothing wrong in discussing and grappling with these issues. The intention is not to bash anyone rather express our opinions about these issues.
The second Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed because of sinas chinum. But let’s remember that acceptance of sin does not necessarily lead to acceptance of humans and vice versa, acceptance of humans does not need to lead to acceptance of sin.
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan z”l (his family did not refer to him with zt”l, so I won’t do that either, however I do think of him as a tzaddik) writes “Judaism teaches that we have a second, perhaps greater, principle in guiding our relationships with others. In addition to motivation of love, people must act out of responsibility towards their fellow man. The Talmud teaches us that one who has the power to prevent evil, or even to protest against it, yet does not do so, bears as much responsiblity for the evil as the one who actually performed it. (Shabbos 54b) This is true whether the perpetrator of evil is one’s neighbor or freind, one’ community or country, or even the world. This is reffered to the sin of silence. Not speaking out against wrong, and not trying ot prevent it, is as evil a sin as the wrong itself.”
Every person has a spark of keduasha in him. No person is ever rejected by God if he does teshuva. No matter what a person does, he is always loved by Hashem and can always return to Him. A Jew is always loved by Hashem, no matter what kind of life he leads, but just as Hashem gets “angry” so to speak when we sin, so too we must love every Jew, but not accept sinful deeds of anyone including ourselves!July 20, 2010 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #696043oyveykidsthesedaysMember
amenJuly 21, 2010 7:03 am at 7:03 am #696044
it is true that i was judgemental about it and i only realized it to the fullest extent after i already posted it…………i really do love every jew even the people in ny that i grew up with and no i was never hurt and never went off the derech or anything like that………it just seems weird to me how american yeshivish judaism became one of the most class ranked sections in judaism…..i know even by chareidim it is kinda of the same……but why the heck is a guy with no beard learning in a chashuv yeshiva chashuv?he doesnt have a beard!!!!!!!!!the chazon ish would vomit when he saw bochurim without beardsJuly 21, 2010 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #696045bptParticipant
“but why the heck is a guy with no beard learning in a chashuv yeshiva chashuv”
because chashivus is determined by a persons integrity, not his exterior.
Look around.. some very choshuv’e people are clean shaven.July 21, 2010 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #696046
It’s true. Like you said, some can be found.July 21, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #696047
I know many choshuveh Ravs who dont have beards and many choshuveh baalei baatim who dont have beards. I also know of many people with beards who are total am haaratzim and worse…
Lets not judge people by what they look like.
EDITEDJuly 21, 2010 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #696048WolfishMusingsParticipant
the chazon ish would vomit when he saw bochurim without beards
Source, please. I find that very hard to believe.
The WolfJuly 21, 2010 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #696049
Im always looking for the opportunity to agree with wolf
this is it
i also find that very hard to believe.July 21, 2010 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #696050
Wof and Mod-80:
Count me in I highly doubt he would vomit or even said that he would vomit.July 21, 2010 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #696051
Wof and Mod-80
wof is what he says
wolf is who he isJuly 21, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #696052
WIY: the quote of the CI is emes.See the Beard thread where I provided the maare mokoms.July 21, 2010 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #696053smartcookieMember
Mod- you never fail to make me laugh!July 21, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #696054fabieMember
To the best of my recollection, the Chazon Ish writes, that if someone doesn’t grow a beard he should at least grow a mustache. I believe it’s in Igros.July 21, 2010 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #696055mamashtakahMember
“however lets not forget that we have 613 mitzvos and we must keep those with all of their Halachos”
Let’s also not forget that someone may keep all 613 mitzvot and the accompanying halachot in a different manner than you. That does not make it wrong, as long as it’s within the framework of halacha.July 21, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #696056oomisParticipant
Astrix, your comment is indicative of the problem of intolerance in our community. There are PLENTY of truly great Talmidei Chachomim who are clean-shaven. Some cannot grow beards at all, some are uncomfortable with beards, and some make a parnassah in a field in which having a beard would be highly impractical or even unacceptable FOR THEM. In no way does that detract from their learning.
I apologize for giving this mussar, but I do it out of a sincere desire to sensitive you to the words you use and how they can be hurtful to a total stranger. It is wrong for anyone to make a comment such as yours that states that men without beards have no business being in Yeshivos. ANYONE who has a strong desire and geshmak for learning, should be able to do so, no matter WHAT others think, or what his issue might be (remember Hillel Hazakein?). Rabbi Akiva was a total am haaretz when he started, and look what he became. Maybe he had a beard, but he had little else when he began to learn the aleph-beis. Great Torah knowledge can come from anywhere. Try and be a little less judgmental about appearances.July 22, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #696057msseekerMember
Mod: “Im always looking for the opportunity to agree with wolf”
Why?July 22, 2010 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #696058SJSinNYCMember
Because Wolf is logical, smart and clearheaded.July 22, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #696059
Because there are so few such opportunities (if I may be so bold as to answer on his behalf.)July 22, 2010 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #696060
The answer is exactly both what SJ said and what helpful saidJuly 30, 2010 10:12 am at 10:12 am #696061
maybe the chazon ish didnt say that but i heard it that way or it was the he wouldnt let bochurim in to see him who didnt have beards……….there is a story of a guy who’s wife didnt let him have a beard and the baba sali came to his wife in a dream and said that if you let him have a beard half of his sin will be forgiven….my point is not having a beard…..i know plenty of respectable people who dont have beards and i love them and they are mamash beautiful souls…..my problem is with rabbis telling bochurim not to have beards…i got kicked out of a very choshuve yeshiva for growing one and that the jewish world in general looks down at people following new paths….July 30, 2010 11:46 am at 11:46 am #696062MoqMember
As yes. The beauty of using a random mareh mekom to express a personal gripe. And hence, of course, all those who do not adhere to it are most certainly vomit-worthy. Perhaps like R’ Leib Maalin, whom did not have have a beard. The Torah is mazhir us not to use a razor on our beards; the Chazon Ish wanted a tzuras HaYehudi, which may be true, but not Halachic. I suppose he saved his vomit for the Daled Chelekay Shulchan Aruch. I suppose I should preempt an irrelevant rant about the fifth, to give further voice to anger at your Yeshiva. No doubt it was because of the intrinsic insecurity of it’s totally beardless administration. Unless they had beards, and it was totally different issue. That may be a possibility.
Please, add a number of “I heards” . Sources are not at all necessary.August 3, 2010 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #696063bbygParticipant
y does a beard make s/1 chashuv??????? there’s a rebbe in Israel w/o as beard & he is extremey chashuv! i think he is the kaluver rebbe.
Isn’t that because the Nazis ym’s ripped off his beard?August 8, 2010 7:34 am at 7:34 am #696064MoqMember
It’s true; because of his experiences in the Holocaust he will not ever grow a beard. It is not by his choice.
A beard is certainly a respectable thing unto itself; the Chafetz Chaim wrote a rarely learned pamphlet about it entitled “Tiferes Adam” urging people not even to “shave” with scissors even though it is certainly permissible; he writes extensively about the concept of a the way a Jew looks. So yes, it is a sign of Chashivus; but certainly many have valid reasons that they shave their beards, as the Chafetz Chaim himself points out. Hence, the lack of vomit. Remember, even before shavers, Bachurim used powder, (ach! The smell! the burning! hail shavers!).
Today, certainly, using a Shaver which is Kosher according to all de’os – which usually will leave a 5pm shadow – is certainly commendably. Or powder, which leave the closet shave you can possibly get, and it also permissible according to all de’os. Of course, it will also take off some of your skin.August 8, 2010 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #696065charliehallParticipant
I’ve personally seen photographs of yeshiva students in Eastern Europe that were taken during the 1930s. None of the students in the photos have beards. A now elderly rabbi who was in one of the photos (and now has a beard) vouched for the truth of the photos and told me that the boys used depilatories.
And the above ‘proves’ since they did it, it ‘must’ be muttar?August 9, 2010 3:28 am at 3:28 am #696066oyveykidsthesedaysMember
about the Chazon Ish, i don’t think the majority of frum american jews are obligated to follow his psak. of course he was one of the greatest talmidei chachomim of the 20th century, but so was R’ Moshe Feinstein who permitted using an electric shaver.
and how many of you guys hold that you need a mesorah to eat a land animal that has split feet and chews its cud? but the Chazon Ish said it!! nevertheless, in america we follow the american gedolim, and in e”y they follow the israeli gedolim unless there is some other reason.August 9, 2010 4:23 am at 4:23 am #696067SacrilegeMember
In my humble opinion I dont think all Jews “rank” the chashivus of other jews. I think its, without mentioning any particular group (Yeshivish), where it is, unfortunatly, the most prevelant.
I’d like to believe that the reason why the “Yeshivish Movement” was started was to unite all the Bnei Yeshiva, and I’m sure all original intentions were noble. However, at this point, I think if you dont conform, if you voice a slight objection/opinion, you don’t wear whats “accepted” you are then excluded from the “club” and deemed an outsider. Oh! better yet, your not even Yeshivish your an imposter, a “Harry”.
I think differences should be celebrated because there is noone that you cant learn from. If the Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs are cranking out lifeless/thoughtless zombies, where is any original thought going to come from?August 9, 2010 5:10 am at 5:10 am #696068bombmaniacParticipant
of course…from the breeding ground for chashuvah talmidei chachamim and poskim…yeshiva world coffee room…August 9, 2010 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #696069ZosHaTorahParticipant
Am I the only one here who finds this thread quite disturbing? On Tish B’Av, the original poster writes a thread that quickly decends into Jew-bashing? Seriously? His only agenda was to critisize beards vs. non-beards, and that beards somehow have an ability to tell a chashuvah learner from another.
I would be thrilled to see my post be the last one on this thread.September 15, 2010 5:32 am at 5:32 am #696070eclipseMember
A beard on a mentsh is fitting (if he chooses to have one)…a beard on a non-mentsh is a chilul hashem(and is just a mask).Okay,NOW we can close the thread…September 16, 2010 8:40 am at 8:40 am #696071emoticon613Member
hello! Rav Elimelech Tress z”tz”l HAD NO BEARD!! A rav, i’ve forgotten who, said about him – when rabbi tress goes up after 120, they might ask him, jew, jew, where’s your beard! but some other people, when they go up to shamayim, will definitely be asked, beard, beard, where is your jew??
btw, i appreciate when guys wear beards. in fact i really don’t like it when they don’t. BUT A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE HERE!!!!September 16, 2010 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #696072eclipseMember
emoticon613:we agree don’t we?
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