The open miracles of the Iranian bombardment and the war in Gaza

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  • #2278099
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Joe, I don’t believe you. You’ve shown numerous times that you are not trustworthy.

    #2278120
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    I would like to deal with this question from mdd: “And what happened with the nissin on October 7?”
    It’s a very good question. But it’s not a question on me. It’s a question on the entire Chumash and Tanach, which have tragedies and miracles interspersed. And those tragedies can’t be blamed on Zionism. Feel free to pick your favorite peirush and see what they say on it. Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l has written on this extensively.

    #2278127
    ujm
    Participant

    HaLeiVi and all: You do agree, don’t you, that it was a Neis that America defeated Iraq twice, first in the Persian Gulf War and then again in the Iraq War in 2003, and that it was a Neis that America won the Korean War (stopping the North from taking the South) and Panama (Operation Just Cause) were all great Nissim.

    Right?

    #2278129
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Pleaase see my previous post where I have quoted the exact part of the Vayoel Moshe that backs up Rav Lorincz.

    #2278205
    HaKatan
    Participant

    yankel berel:
    He can keep his chezkas kashrus, but the story in which the Satmar Rav is quoted saying something he never said, to which the Brisker Rav replied that you can’t say that, reflects a misunderstanding of the Satmar Rav’s position as indicated in the Satmar Rav’s written Torah on the subject.

    #2278221
    mdd1
    Participant

    HaLevi, you mean the “New methodology…” Rand’s article? I could not easily access it (the Adobe reader does not work well). It is an American article from 1994! Why don’t you bring something from 1916? At the beginning of the 90-s the Israelis suggested creating a missile defense system, the Americans said it was doomed to fail. So, the article fits with the whole discussion.

    #2278302
    smerel
    Participant

    >>>He can keep his chezkas kashrus, but the story in which the Satmar Rav is quoted saying something he never said, to which the Brisker Rav replied that you can’t say

    The way Rabbi Lorinzcz wrote it he never attributed anything to the Satmar Rebbe to the Brisker Rav to begin with . He attributed is as being a general Satmar view. It certainly was a Satmar view to attribute Israel’s successes to the Sotton. I’ve heard it many times from those who align themselves with Satmar

    Although over the past few years ago some of them seemed to have shifted and taken on the kocey v’potzem yodey approach to explain it instead

    #2278305
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Mdd1, every system takes 20 years to develop. The article is still relevant on the theory. The “Understanding war” post i posted is from Sunday, and is very relevant. Ditto the quote from an unnamed Biden staffer who said that Shabbos’s success is unlikely to be replicated. I am still waiting for a cogent explanation on how the US, against the same Arabs in an urban war zone, got a death rate 10x higher than Israel if not for a neis. Conventional wars are not nissim, though they are Yad Hashem. It’s when you see something very much unexpected that you are supposed to stop and think about it, and praise Hashem. And we have that here.
    In fact, conventional wars show us what is expected and unexpected. Fallujah showed us conventional teva in urban warfare. the Russia vs Ukraine showed us teva in blocking ballistic missiles.
    Even Iron Dome, which is against slower, more easily tracked targets, only has a success rate of 90%. 99% vs ballistic missiles which are much harder to track and hit?

    Iron Dome
    This system, developed by Israel with U.S. backing, specializes in shooting down short-range rockets. It has intercepted thousands of rockets since it was activated early last decade – including thousands of interceptions during the current war against Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel says it has a success rate of over 90%.

    Reb Moshe Feinstein zt”l wrote that 1967 was an example of nissim in our time. The Brisker Rav zt”l said that 1948 was a neis. And he should know- he lived through the bombardment. So yes, miracles in Eretz Yisroel are miracles according to litvish mesorah.

    #2278422
    mdd1
    Participant

    LT, about the casualty rate: ISIS wanted to fight urban warfare against Americans – to inflict casualties on them. They did not want to fight against the Israelis because they deemed the Israelis to be well-trained in that type of combat.
    The article was an American one from 20 years ago – from the Americans who thought you could not create such a system! the statement from the staffer does not imply a neis golui! And I never said that no nissim ever happened in E. Yisroel in the last 70 years.

    #2278425
    drop of sechel
    Participant

    The existence of Eretz Yisroel is a daily neis. Why bring in politics or Hashkafah? It should be obvious to everyone not blinded by preconceived views.
    After the great destruction Hashem gave us a nechama. The last 75 years have seen less Jews killed than any other time in history since the first Beis Hamikdosh. More Torah and yeshivos than ever before .Our job is to thank Hashem for His Amazing yeshuos. If we don’t,chas vesholom, we can’t expect more yeshuos. Let Gedolim Discuss Zionism. WE must be constantly appreciating the many brochos we are zocheh to enjoy

    #2278765
    mdd1
    Participant

    “The last 75 years saw less Jews killed” than any other period since Churbun — absolutely false! Over 20,000 were murdered. Between 1805 and 1880 it did not happen. Learn the Jewish history!

    #2278788
    ujm
    Participant

    “The existence of Eretz Yisroel is a daily neis.”

    Eretz Yisroel has existed, continuously non-stop, for the last 5,784 years.

    “The last 75 years have seen less Jews killed than any other time in history since the first Beis Hamikdosh.”

    In chutz la’aretz that’s true. But in Eretz Yisroel more Jews have been killed in the last 75 years than in any time in history since the Churban Bayis Sheini.

    “More Torah and yeshivos than ever before.”

    This is also true in chutz la’aretz. However much exists in Eretz Yisroel is zero thanks to the zionist anti-Torah government. Orthodox Jews in Israel pay more money to the State in taxes than they receive in Yeshiva funding. The State gives far far more funding, both in real dollars and in percentages, to secular universities than to Yeshivos. The Yeshiva system we do have in Eretz Yisroel (as well as in chutz la’aretz) is exclusively because of the efforts of Gedolei Yisroel.

    #2278792
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “The existence of Eretz Yisroel is a daily neis”

    Eretz Yisroel existed since maysoh bereshis, lr possibly ths Avos, depending on how you look at it. It exists as am area of land regardless of who lives on it.

    If you’re referring to the.secular shmad state built on Nazi collaboration and euroepam6 nationalism, then you’re correct, that the state is not a natural phenomenon.

    #2278808
    yid1818
    Participant

    Sechel: how do you know that in the last 75years less Jews were killed than in history?

    #2278859
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    mdd1, I have shared an article from the day after the attack from Understanding War explaining it. I have shared a piece from an Israeli expert explaining how 90% accuracy (leting through 1 out of 10 missiles) is much easier than 99% accuracy (letting through 1 out of 100 missiles), and 99.9% accuracy (letting through 1 out of a thousand) is that much harder. I have shared the quote from the Biden official who said that the success could not likely be replicated, indicating it was statistically anomalous , ie a neis. Not sure why the Rand article is the one you keep repeating, but that article explains the dfficulties in achieving the coverage. So yes it’s a neis.
    Most systems do have a 20 year development lead time, and many older systems are still in use. The US still flies F-15’s even though those are from the 70’s. So yes an exloration of the system from 2001 is still relevant today. And we see from ukraine how tough it is.

    Your attempt to explain Fallujah vs Gaza was not cogent. The fact remains that the US, the most well-equipped army in the world, had a death toll 10 times worse than Israel had. That established the baseline. Israel having 90% fewer losses is definitely a neis.
    Here is another write-up from the same professor explaining the difference between letting 1 out of 10 missiles through and 1 out of 100, which every bar seichel should understand is much harder and much less likely to be achieved:
    Professor of physics, Maximilian Abitbol, who is also an expert on the defense industry had this to say about the events of Saturday night.
    _______________________________________________________________
    Scientific Proof that what happened on the 6th of Nissan was nothing short of a Miracle* Words written by a Physics Professor who worked in Israel’s Defense Industry

    I wanted to share something that is much more than a feeling. Something that comes from a real calculation: What happened in Israel on last Motzaei Shabbat was not less than the scale of the splitting of the Red Sea.

    I am a Professor of physics and I worked for several years in the defense industry in Israel, in projects that are still the cutting edge technologies of the defence of the State of Israel. When I look at what happened on Motzai Shabbat, on a scientific level – it simply cannot happen!! Statistically.

    The likelihood that everything, but really Everything works out, does not exist in complex systems like the defense systems that were used to defend Israel from the massive Iranian attack.

    These systems have never, but never, not only in the State of Israel, been tried in real time!!

    I took a pencil and dived into the calculations to check the statistic probability that such a result would materialize. The large number of events that had to be handled, when each missile or UAV is handled independently (that is, human error or some deviation of one operation, is not offset by other successful operations), compounds the chance of making a mistake.

    With all the high technologies, a breach was expected in the defense of the skies of the State of Israel.

    Even if we got 90% protection it would have been a miracle!!

    What happened is that everyone, but everyone – the pilots, the systems operators and the technology operators acted as one man, at one moment in total unity. If this is not an act of G-d, then I no longer know what a miracle is.

    It is Greater than the victory of the Six Day War or the War of Independence. Those wars can also be explained through natural events.
    BUT
    The rescue that took place for the people of Israel on Motzai Shabbat is simply impossible naturally. I believe that this miracle saved the lives of many people from Israel.

    If the defense system had failed to intercept a number of cruise missiles, the result would have dragged us into a very complex war. I wouldn’t bet that next time it will work like this without Divine supervision. The simple proof of what I said is that the managers of the defense industries, who develop and manufacture these systems guarantee no more than 90% success!And we all saw, with our own eyes 99.9% !!!

    Thank You Hashem!!

    “From the day you came out of the land of Egypt I Have Showed you Wonders”,

    M. Abitbol

    _____________________________

    agav, I am still bewildered by how anyone can deny the nissim of 1967. the Mir was hit by multiple shells and NONE of them exploded:
    More Tehillim. A bris in the morning in the [Chevron] yeshivah. At 12:15, I felt it safe to go to the Mir. They were real happy to see me. It was still dangerous but not very noisy. Rav Chaim [Shmuelevitz] gave me shalom and asked how I was. They told me of the nissim that happened. Two direct hits were on the building — one right through the rosh yeshivah zatzal apartment and one in the corner of the Beis Medrash. The roof was also hit direct and a piece is missing. Shells were falling all around and some said vidui. At 2:00 they said Tehillim for 1 1⁄2 hours. In the afternoon they announced on Kol Yisrael about no injuries — neiss chasdei Mir and the hits.

    #2278881
    mdd1
    Participant

    Ujm, let’s be honest — if not for the the Israel’s government money (and the Zionists building up the economy), the kollel system there would not have been able to exist. Let us be honest. Was there such a system in Russia or Poland 150 years ago?!?
    LT, a miracle like kriyas Yam Suf?!? Yeh, sure. Obviously, you can’t take this guy seriously. And do re-read my post about ISIS!

    #2278886
    smerel
    Participant

    >>> But in Eretz Yisroel more Jews have been killed in the last 75 years than in any time in history since the Churban Bayis Sheini.

    That doesn’t seem true. Of course when Eretz Yisroel was desolate and almost bereft of Jewish inhabitants very few Jews were being killed there. Which was the situation for the majority of the time after Churban Bayis Sheini. But when there was a significant Jewish population there was plenty of persecution. For example

    More Jews died in Churban Beitar than in the entirety of the existence of the State of Israel. That was more than 50 years after Churban Bayis Sheini

    Rav Sheria Gaon and Rav Hai Gaon say that the persecutions in Eretz Yisrael at the time of the compiling of the Yerushlami, were so intense that the halachic discussions ended abruptly and did not reach their complete conclusion. Therefore we pasken like the Bavli over the Yerushalmi

    etc.

    #2278978
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    YWN CR is littered with threads about Zionism. Leave the Zionism bashing there. This thread is focused on the miracles that have taken place, as recognized by such gedolim as Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l, the Brisker Rav zt”l, Rav Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l, and other. And on the modern miracles when compared to other baselines. The Brisker Rav zt”l hated Zionists but he knew a miracle when he saw one.

    Smerel raises a very good point. I have quoted previously the exact part of the Vayoel Moshe where he clearly says that the whole kiyum is Israel is a maaseh satan, not just “teva”. We all know Satmar Yidden. Ask them what is meant by Maaseh Satan, so you can get the actual Satmar mesorah of what the Satmar Rebbe zt”l really held. You can thus confirm that Rav Lorincz did not distort the street view of Maaseh Satan when he asked the Brisker Rav zt”l about it. I’ll quote this again from the Satmar Rebbe zt”l since people somehow seem to keep missing this:

    והנשארים מבני ישראל שהשאיר הקב”ה בעבור שבועתו שלא יכלה זרעו, נענשו גם כן בעונש קשה ומר, במה שצליח מעשה שטן להשיג מלכות המינות לנסות את ישראל בניסיון עצום כזה … וזה ברור כי אותו הרעיון המתועב הוא המעכב גאולתינו ופדות נפשינו.

    Like chazal say,אם תלכו עמי קרי means saying everything is mikreh and teva, even when it’s clear that it isn’t. When Hashem lets the hastara slip and shows us His hashgacha, it’s worth it to recognize it. As the Brisker Rav zt”l made clear, one can be vehemently against Zionism and still see nissim and hashgacha with Eretz Yisroel.
    Gradde, I have previously quoted the amazing nissim that occurred to the Mir in 1967. Rav Shmulevitz zt”l used to have a seudas hodaah after that to thank Hashem for the nissim- and the kanoim would be outside his door protesting!

    #2279406
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    YWN published this article. Rav Zilberstein shlit”a says of course there were nissim:
    _________________________________________

    HaGaon HaRav Yitzchak Zilberstein spoke about the great nissim that Klal Yisrael experienced in Eretz Yisrael during the Iranian attack last Motzei Shabbos.

    In a Yom Tov interview for ‘קו עיתונות,’ the Rav said. “We’re in Chodesh Nissan, the month of Geulah. We need to know that apart from general chizzuk in Torah and gemilus chassadim, which saves us from chevlei Moshiach, we also need to dedicate time to daven and cry out to Hakadosh Baruch Hu from the depths of our hearts – that He send us Moshiach and build the Beis Hamikdash and we’re zocheh to the Geulah quickly – and this will solve our tzaros all at once. Why should we daven for this and that problem when we have the ability to daven for Hakadosh Baruch to solve all our problems at once.”

    Regarding the Iranian attack, HaRav Zilberstein said: “We’re at a difficult time – but we were zocheh to see nissim and niflaos on Motzei Shabbos when over 300 missiles should have landed in Eretz Yisrael but Hakadosh Baruch Hu saved us from their hands. The president of Iran said that he would strike the Jews with an attack that they would remember forever and in the end – the operation ended with HaKadosh Baruch Hu humiliating him.”

    “איום ונורא! Sixty tons of explosives were on the way here…Hakadosh Baruch Hu showed him Who runs the world and made a mockery of him, that no missile succeeded in harming Eretz Yisrael. Who knows what could have been…I don’t know how to thank Hakadosh Baruch Hu.”
    _____________________________________________________
    YWN Also quotes Rav Shternbuch Shlit”a of the Eida Hachareidis, not exactly a Zionist, that Hashem is protecting Israel and it’s not teva:
    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    HaRav Shternbuch then changed the topic to that of Iran, saying: “I was asked in the past week if we need to fear Iran after they launched over 300 missiles and drones at Eretz Yisrael. I responded that according to nature, there is definitely what to fear but whoever remembers that Hakadosh Baruch Hu is with us has nothing to fear.”

    “Chas v’chalilah to think that there’s nothing to fear because we have an army here – because the truth is that the only thing that protects us is the shemirah of Hakadosh Baruch Hu – and if chas v’chalilah Hakadosh Baruch Hu removes His special hashgacha and shemirah from us, we will all be lost from the world, rachmana litzlan.”

    “It’s forbidden to forget the tzaar of the Shechinah when sinners mock HaKadosh Baruch Hu and say כוחי ועוצם ידי עשה לי את החיל הזה.’ Those who say this are the ones who truly hold back the yeshua and geulah.”

    #2279408
    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Bh at this point my view is backed up by gedolim- Baruch Shekivanti. Those who say here were no nissim with the Iranian attack are arguing on Rav Zilbertsein Shlit”a, and those who say Hashem isn’t protecting Israel/ it’s all teva are arguing on the Gaavad of the Eida haChareidis. Rav Shternbuch shlit”a undoubtedly knows the Divrei Yoel better than anyone here. As well, there is nobody here who is a bar plugta on Rav Shternbuch Shlit”a to claim it’s teva.

    #2279497

    Lernt, it looks like a lot of people agree that it was a nes and we should acknowledge it. There might be disagreement between different groups with each claiming that it was their zechus of learning/chesed/army … As they say success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

    Following this line, there might be a change in our zechuyos after Simchas Torah… Maybe we can compare the list of those who claim nes is due to them with a list of those who said that Simchas Torah was due to their aveiros and did teshuva. There were indeed people who showed more achdus than before, and so we should double down on that. I don’t want to start guessing specific examples, as I am sure someone will get offended and the opposite will be achieved.

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