The purpose of mechila

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  • #617312

    flatbusher
    Participant

    On a human level, what is the purpose of mechila? Recently, someone who hurt me deeply asked for mechila and al pi halacha I granted it. However, while that may clear the conscious of the one who committed the hurt, the pain within me remains. So what is mechila supposed to accomplish if it really is just words, no matter how sincere they are?

    #1139791

    mechila when asked, means the person feels bad for what they did-otherwise they would not ask mechila cause they still think they did nothing wrong-& wants to ask you forgiveness & remain friends with you. so if you forgave him then you know its time to move on & start fresh with him

    BOTTOM LINE:if a person is asking you mechila-although its just words-he obviously admits that what s/he did was wrong

    #1139792

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Since it is something that is required of us, how can you determine the reason why, and still my pain remains. It’s easy to tell someone to move on when it’s not your pain.

    #1139793

    cause i know that if he was able to take on him to admit to me that he did something wrong. that he really has charata for what he did. so now that he has asked me forgiveness its time for me to move on. theres just a limit how much a person can let his life get ruined over 1 event that happened (although it may be major)

    ex. even if someone murders someones relative C”V is the person killeds family gonna be depressed & upset & angry etc… at the murderer for THEIR ENTIRE LIFE? is it worth it to ruin your entire future 80 or 90 years of life ahead of you over 1 Major tragedy/event? (the murderer will pay justice in bais din/civil court but you cant throw YOUR entire life down the drain over this 1 event)

    theres a limit to every situation, in the case of Niftar there are levels from Shiva to Shloshim to yahrtzeit etc… & what each one allolws or not allows. but you cant lock yourself up for life because of it

    GET OVER IT

    HATZLACHA

    #1139794

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    MA – of all the things you have tried to shove down our throats, this has got to be the most insensitive, uninformed and inappropriate of them all. I surely hope your claim to being a counselor or any type of support person is untrue.

    #1139795

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I just want to restate my point, since I sense the responses are not focusing on it. Is mechila intended to clear conscience of the one who committed the wrong and is it effective even if the victim is mochel, as is required by halacha, even if he still feels the pain of the wrong? In other words, can the victim demand a mechila that makes him feel better or does he just have to live with what halacha requires?

    #1139796

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is it sincere?

    #1139797

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    flatbusher:

    “On a human level”.. what’s that?!? Mechila, emotions, feelings are exclusively for us humans. Furthermore – “..and al pi halacha I granted it..” What does that mean? Who FORCES you to be mochel?

    The requirement to request Mechila is a means to somewhat lessen the pain, anguish, hurt. And if you’re not ready DON’T grant it yet. Mull over it, think it through, and if you’re ready with your whole heart grant it. Once you are mochel you cannot bear any ill feelings in your heart anymore. There were some greats who when asked for Mechila told the offender to come back in a few days to be able to think it through, to be able to grant Mechila with a full heart.

    Asking Mechila is not a “kinder shpil”, a plaything. Gemarah says one who injured another, even after monetary compensation, is not forgiven until obtaining Mechila. So much more where no other compensation is involved. So much more where the hurt is in the the heart, the mind, ever ready for instant replay.

    May you know of no more tzaar!

    #1139798

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Based on what do you say “if your ready don’t grant it?” I am not talking about ill feelings toward another as much as sadness and pain that such person caused. It seems mechila is a mechanical act. If we waited until a person was “ready” it could months or years, and I don’t think the person asking for mechila wants that type of time period. Thanks for your good wishes, but my sense is people ask mechila “because it’s the right thing to do,” and we grant it for the same reason.

    #1139799

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    flatbusher – I really feel for you. I think you are correct that there are people who ask mechila because they know they should but as I tell my children when they would apologize for things, unless you are going to try to do differently next time it is not a sincere apology. And from everything I have learned, you have no obligation to forgive, but even when you do, you don’t have to feel kind toward them or trust them. Mechila is to right a wrong, not clear a conscience.

    Someone who caused immense pain to me and my family has yet to apologize, and continues on an ongoing basis to perpetuate the wrongdoing. (similar to pulling business away from a certain vendor for dishonest reasons, feeling really bad about it, but continuing to shop elsewhere anyway) Even if they ever asked for mechila (which is doubtful), I don’t think I could ever forgive them while they continue with the same hurtful behaviors.

    You are worth too much to allow people to hurt you and mechanically forgive them. And if they don’t want “that type of time period”, then let them be more careful next time. Forgive them when you are ready, but meanwhile you can feel sorry for them that they weren’t more sensitive, learn from their mistake, and be wary of them in the future.

    This is just based of that which I have learned, I hope it addresses your question.

    #1139800

    kapusta
    Participant

    Thanks for that post, Syag.

    Nice to see you around btw 🙂

    #1139801

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I probably wrote “if you’re NOT ready”… (just kidding)

    And yes, I WAS writing about the pain and sadness not the ill feelings. And yes, take your time. That’s why the offender must come back.. it’s not an automatic given. Take your time to heal, time and reflection can do it, along with a sincere apology. Again, a sincere one.

    #1139802

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Thank you Syag for your thoughtful post. I very much appreciate it. May your tzaar over your hurt dissipate soon.

    #1139803

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    thanks to you both!

    #1139804

    Sam2
    Participant

    flatbusher: This is very difficult. Let me relate a story that once occurred to me.

    Someone once wronged me terribly. I was very hurt and I honestly told him that I wasn’t ready to forgive him yet. This happened in the winter. About 8 months later, Rosh Hashana rolled around. In the weeks leading up to R”H, he asked me for Mechila three times. I honestly told him that I wasn’t ready to forgive him yet. I thought that was enough.

    He then brought a Minyan to my place of work to declare in front of them (and me) that he tried to forgive me but I refused. He said that that’s what it says in Shulchan Aruch (which it does, if you read it Kipshuto).

    The point is, he failed in his attempt to ask Mechila and he publicly humiliated me in a misguided attempt to fix it.

    Mechila is rooted in humanity and human emotion. You should do your best to honestly forgive the person, but it takes time. Try to move on and the Mechila will come in time. It’s not true Mechila until it does. And when a person (either the one who did the wrong or the one who was wronged) doesn’t understand this, disaster can result.

    #1139805

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, if he followed Shulchan Aruch k’peshuto after you declined mechila, how can you have an additional taaina on him for doing the only thing pashut halacha states he should?

    #1139806

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Sam, if he followed Shulchan Aruch k’peshuto after you declined mechila, how can you have an additional taaina on him for doing the only thing pashut halacha states he should?

    Who says he requested mechila properly? As Syag pointed out above, if the wrong is not even righted as best as possible, the request for mechila is worthless.

    #1139807

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram: Sam didn’t say that his earlier three requests for mechila was improper. Nor did Sam say he expected something additional from the fellow that he failed to perform. If either of those were applicable he should have mentioned it. I can only comment on the situation as he presented it.

    #1139808

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Sam didn’t say that his earlier three requests for mechila was improper.

    That is true, and only Sam2 can clarify. Still, I wrote what I did because:

    1. I am judging Sam2 l’kaf zechus that had the requests been truly proper, and that includes being patient and not pestering or humiliating the wronged party if he asks for more time to work through his feelings, he would have granted mechila.

    2. If the man gathered a minyan together, he should have used that opportunity to confess his wrongdoing to Sam2 publicly and beg for forgiveness. Instead, he used the minyan to humiliate Sam2 by showing up at his work site rather than home and making the focus his refusal.

    If we see that the last thing off the assembly line is pork, should we assume that everything that came off before it is kosher?

    Nor did Sam say he expected something additional from the fellow that he failed to perform.

    He expected more time.

    #1139809

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    To draw out the blood.

    #1139810

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram: Why aren’t you judging the guy who requested mechila l’kaf zechus that he requested it properly. Especially since no one claimed otherwise. The minyan was, as Sam indicated, per S”A. I don’t think Sam would have invited the minyan into his home if he didn’t want to grant mechila, as he indicated.

    My reading of the comment is that he was moida what he did wrong in front of the minyan. (And does S”A require that? Because Sam said he in fact followed what S”A requires.) As far as more time, it was right before Rosh Hashana. And Sam indicated he had already been asking for mechila for eight months.

    #1139811

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    a teacher who was always kind and caring changed drastically under the advice of the new principal who made it clear that it was his way or the highway. After one of our kids suffered at this teachers hand, and it was obvious the teacher was very uncomfortable with the directions he’d been given, I told him that if I was him I don’t know if I could sleep at night. I asked him how he decides that his job is more important than the talmidim he is teaching. Months later, on erev yom kippur, he sent me a letter that said that he hopes I am moichel him. He knows he didn’t do anything wrong, that he is who he always was, and that he is employed by ‘x’ and therefore does whatever he is guided to do.

    I was surprised by the letter, i really felt him more pity than anger, and this letter just supported that. Does that sound like a sincere ‘apology’? Do i “owe” him michila? my guess is that it was to clear his own guilty conscience as I never responded and he never followed up to find out.

    when a person is, in their mind, following shulchan aruch – but the honesty, integrety, responsibility, sincerity is lacking, is it really following the Shulchan Aruch? Did Hashem give us motions to go thru so that we can grow by osmosis, or does He expect us to internalize our commandments, complete them from within and without, and grow from the upheaval and rebuilding?

    #1139812

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Why aren’t you judging the guy who requested mechila l’kaf zechus that he requested it properly. Especially since no one claimed otherwise.

    It’s possible I’m not; I’ll have to think about it.

    The minyan was, as Sam indicated, per S”A. I don’t think Sam would have invited the minyan into his home if he didn’t want to grant mechila, as he indicated.

    So why not the yard, or the hall? Bringing it to the workplace is reminiscent of the tactics of shady collection agencies.

    #1139813

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s a weak question. It’s plausible that was the only opportune place to bring the minyan where he was in one place. There or in shul, but Sam might have objected even more if he brought the minyan (per S”A) to his local shul.

    #1139814

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    this thred makes no sens

    #1139815

    Sam2
    Participant

    Mod 95: This was a serious thread. It was inappropriate of you to change the title.

    #1139816

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: It is clear to anyone who sees the Beis Yosef that the case in question is one where there is an ongoing feud. No one can be Mochel the other and this feud clearly became public. Therefore, if one person wants to end the feud but the other doesn’t, the person who wants the feud over should public declare that he is Mochel and removing himself from the situation. Then the onus is now on the other person to end things.

    The Shulchan Aruch does not mean that if someone wronged someone privately that they have any right to publicly declare that the other refuses to forgive him. If you read it Kipshuto, you might think that, but then your punishment for not properly learning and understanding the Shulchan Aruch is that you end up being Malbim Panim B’Rabim.

    Avram: That applies whether in place of work or home or anywhere else. Publicizing someone’s unwillingness or inability to forgive when it was not otherwise known is violating many Issurei D’Oraisa.

    And Joseph, Avram was correct. A proper asking of Mechila requires giving the wronged person enough time to “get over” it. Rosh Hashana doesn’t magically mean that the person has moved past the issue. Maybe he should have waited until the next Rosh Hashana if 8 months wasn’t enough.

    #1139817

    TheGoq
    Participant
    #1139818

    flatbusher
    Participant

    OK, so what do you do if the person who did the hurt does not even realize he hurt you? Are you mechuyav to bring it to his attention to start the mechila process? This is my situation

    #1139819

    Yes you are mechuyuv so you prevent him from the need to return to this world when he is niftar to make up for it.

    But you can double check with your LOR

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