December 12, 2010 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #593434
The real fraud in all this sheitel business is the sheitels themselves. Who are we kidding anyway? Why isn’t anyone commenting on the true fraud- the extra long gorgeous sheitels that are on the market today? That what’s wrong with the entire picture. Ok, so there are heters to wear sheitels, I understand. Who I am I to go against our Rabbis? Only problem is there is no Rabbi who found these kind of sheitels ok . And if you are embarrassed that now the goyim “found out” how much we pay for them…why are we continuing to manufacture, sell, buy and wear them. Where are our priorities? We need to stop this craziness…It’s out of hand already.
sigh…December 12, 2010 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #721776
No, you are incorrect.
We have a torah, and we follow it. We had chazal, and we follow them.
You say no rabbi has found these sheitels ok. That is not the issue. The issue is whether anybody has found them assur. Chazal did not see fit to make sheitels assur, and we do not need to add to their issurim.
If you feel more tzanua with a hat, by all means. But if you declare what we do assur based on your feelings, you are very wrong.December 12, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #721777December 12, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #721778Trying my bestMember
popa: There is also “the spirit of the law”. Where does specifically it say 6 inch high-heeled red shoes are not okay?December 12, 2010 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #721779
There is a spirit of the law. It does not say 6 inch red shoes are not okay anywhere, and I applaud you for not wearing them.
Ok, you are correct, there are certain modes of dressing I would criticize even if they are not against the letter of the law. I would even fault someone for not having the sensitivity.
I suppose what irks me here, is that there is nothing inherently untzanua about wearing a sheitel. Chazal say that hair of a married woman is ervah, she is not showing her hair. Now, I don’t see any extreme insensitivity to tznius involved in wearing a sheitel, so I don’t think it is right to criticize people who do it.
Also, the OP seemed to be basing him?her?self on the assumption that chazal would have banned it, or even more absurdly, on the fact that chazal did not expressly permit it (since they did not exist in current format). It is almost as if the OP is trying to read an actual issur into chazal which does not exist.December 12, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #721780
Waiting- may I ask what you wear (if you’re a married woman)?December 12, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #721781Trying my bestMember
popa: The OP has Gedolim (i.e, Satmar Rebbe, Chacham Ovadia Yosef, et al) to rely on to make his statement.December 12, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #721783
popa: The OP has Gedolim (i.e, Satmar Rebbe, Chacham Ovadia Yosef, et al) to rely on to make his statement.
Depends what his statement is.
If the statement is that some gedolim have said not to wear them, then yes.
If the statement is that it is more tzanua not to wear them, then yes.
If the statement is that it is not proper to wear them, then no. Most of our gedolim have permitted them. (That is litvaks)December 12, 2010 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #721784
popa: The modern wig is a new invention,Chazal could not ban it. Modern day Rabbis have however come out against them. See the link that I posted above(there are many others as well). My irk is against the very LONG wigs ONLY-which I feel are not “in the spirit of the Law” as a poster above put it.
Bais Yaakov drills (and enforces)to our daughters to keep hair tied, as its more tznuis.(Do you feel this is wrong?) When they get married(some-not most) buy 16″ & 18″ sheitels and wear them loose. Is it rebellion?
smartcookie:I’d like to keep my extreme form of anonymity for now and will not indicate if I am a he or she or what kind of covering I prefer, black hat, scarf ,sheitel or whatever.December 12, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #721785cherrybimParticipant
As chazal have stated, if the general olam cannot endure or accept a kol koreh g’zerah, it is not pursued or repeated, so let’s lay off until such times. Indeed, the above linked proclamation is years old.December 12, 2010 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #721786
Women are always tempted to try the latest styles because they are beautiful. It is up to their husbands to draw the line. When women are young girls living in their parents home, it is the parents who draw the line. For instance “I know it is pretty and I don’t care if your friends parents allow it, we don’t”. Men do have Rebbeim, do go to shiurim, have learned Gemarah, should have enough seichel to say “yes that is really pretty, but I would prefer if you didn’t buy it or wear it, in my eyes, it is not very tznius. We don’t have to follow everything the goyim do.”December 12, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #721787lesschumrasParticipant
spending $3000 on a sheitel that is nicer than your own hair and can’t be dictinguished from your own hair is what’s nuts.December 12, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #721788FrummyMcFrumParticipant
You cant call the wig people ‘frauds’ they are simply selling what the public wants. The issue is that the public wants it. If people wouldn’t buy wigs which went past the shoulder, then the stores would not carry themDecember 12, 2010 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #721789
Waiting – I’m assuming you don’t wear a Sheitel then because you’re talking against it. I hope you’re not a hypocrite.
I believe a Sheitel is Muttar as long as it’s NORMAL. But don’t fool yourself that your Sheitel is Tznius when it really looks like hair.December 12, 2010 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #721790
Why should women cut off their beautiful hair and then look like a shmata? What exactly would happen to their self-esteem and self-confidence and how much confidence do we have in these young men who barely know how to talk to women? Do you think they can actually make them feel beautiful with a smatah on their heads?December 12, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #721791
smartcookie: no worries-I’m not a hypocrite.
then u feel that that all sheitels(that look like real hair) are all untznius regardless of length?December 12, 2010 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #721792
Of course Sheitlech that look like hair are Assur. It’s not what I feel. It’s HALACHA.December 12, 2010 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #721793memoMember
i find sheteils actually make the mitzvah of covering your hair more appealing ,after you get married u still wanna look normal!!! many married women who wouldn’t cover their hair ya they wear gorgeous wigs but its better then not at all…its not just for the husbands its also for your self..o.k. there’s a limit to how flashy and showy the wig should be as well as for everything else in life… we make choices and there has to be a balance life’s not all or nothing..December 12, 2010 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #721794
So if for the most part we are in agreement that some sheitels may be in the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law-how can the communities we live in make a change?
Do you really think that as cherrybim stated “the general olam cannot endure or accept a kol koreh g’zerah”. I think I give these women more credit then that. Why is it felt that the women wont accept this? I don’t know any (frum)women who would be flattered being called a “hot chanie” . It is very derogatory.December 12, 2010 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #721795
What do you think is motivating you to want to ban sheitels?December 12, 2010 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #721796Dave HirschParticipant
Oh… I was waiting for it to come. It was a timebomb waiting to explode. I long wanted to clarify this issue here in the Coffee Room; it’s just impossible to have a proper Halachic conversation (on this matter) here in the coffee room.December 12, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #721797Be HappyParticipant
I am very frustrated. I desparately need a new shietel but the prices are outrageous. If only hats and snoods would be more acceptable in the neighbourhood that I live I would chuck my shietels. I will cotinue to wear my shmatta.
I do feel strongly that we are responsible for the prices and styles – If we would not buy it the market would look different.December 12, 2010 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #721798
It is very sad to say but unfortunately there are many woman who take that as a compliment.December 13, 2010 2:54 am at 2:54 am #721799apushatayidParticipant
Behappy. Paula Young.December 13, 2010 5:03 am at 5:03 am #721800oomisParticipant
Of course Sheitlech that look like hair are Assur. It’s not what I feel. It’s HALACHA. “
Quote me exact chapter and verse, and especially the lines that say in those exact words, what you asserted.December 13, 2010 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #721801tzippiMember
Not all BY’s drill in hair must be tied back. Not wild, yes, but not necessarily tied back. Which is not a bad thing; I’m all for breathing room.
Some long sheitels cost a lot less than shorter ones. (And I mean long ones from heimishe sources.)
And of non-heimishe sources: Paula Young has a division called Especially Yours. The wigs are more comfortable and it also has a darker brown that’s not available in PY. There’s also Ye Olde Beauty Supply Shoppe, but wigs there aren’t returnable or exchangeable.December 13, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #721802
Oomis I agree with you and it is frustrating when everyone hides behind halacha to make things the way they want it to be. There are even different shitas from what I have heard about using your own hair to make a sheitel. I was extremely surprised about this because I was taught that you could not grow your own hair as a girl and cut it to make your own wig. Which made sense to me. What would be the point, wouldn’t you then be showing your own hair? Years ago, in the country there was this vabel from Lakewood that told me she was making a sheitel from her own hair and her Rav told her she could. I was very surprised, but if she asked her Rav and he told her she could who was I to question that.
I am also quite sure that every Rosh Yeshiva would have a very frank talk with all their talmidim if this were a halacha, And there would be no need at all for this discussion if in fact it was a halacha because the issue would be moot.December 13, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #721803Aishes ChayilParticipant
The fraud is how much sheitel machers are chargin!
There was a wig maker from Israel who once came to a town and said she will PROVE that sheitels shouldnt cost so much. She was selling
them for about 1200 dollars inlcuding the cut.
For those of you who think that woman have to look less attractive after they are married, please please please rid yourselves of that pathetic thought.
One can argue that maybe long and attention seeking hair pieces might be less tzniusdik, but then that goes for clothes as well.
Al Pi Din her hair is covered the way it shoudl be.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was very makpid that his women should look good. He had nothing against red nail polish and custom made sheitels( in fact he knew about that contreversy a few years ago with the Indian hair and didnt accept it as a problem, neither did the Satmar dayan from Antwerp)
The halacha states that a woman has to cover her hair because it is considered ervah. We see that when the Kohen had to pull off the covering of a woman who was a proven to be unfaithful to her husba,nd.
‘Of course Sheitlech that look like hair are Assur. It’s not what I feel. It’s HALACHA. “
Totally false. Please bring a mekor for that.December 13, 2010 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #721804
Smartcookie where does it say that wigs that look like hair are assur? I thought the whole point was to cover your hair i dont know where it says make sure if you wear a wig it looks wiggy. Didnt know the whole point of covering your hair was to look ugly. Your husband sees you in your wig too doesnt he?December 13, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #721805A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Just recently I went to a sheitel sale and ran into a kallah that I know for a long time. To be honest, I’d never have thought she would be covering her hair – her family has always been very MO. My point is that a lot of young ladies, such as this one, who 15+ years ago wouldn’t have covered their hair, are now doing so because they don’t have to look weird to do so. Hats, tichels etc are lovely in the neighborhood, but for those of us who work in the secular world, we have to fit in somewhat. However, on the otherhand, $3,000 is outrageously expensive. I could buy a car for that much, or pay a good chunk of my kids’ tuitions. That’s the part that has gotten out of hand.December 13, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #721806
A woman outside bklyn: I totally agree with you. My husband is a rav in a shul that ten years back there was one woman who covered her hair there. I had just purchased a new wig and did spend the $3000.00 dollars on it which i agree is ridiculous but it was important for the women to see you can be religious and NOT look weird. A girl came over to me the first shabbat i was wearing it and told me if a wig can look like that she will cover her hair. And she did. And so did 20 other women. And yes they will only buy those expensive wigs because its important to them to look good in front of their family members who aren’t frum. Is it an avaira to wear an expensive wig? I don’t think so. Should it be $3000.00? i dont think so either but how can we change that? I guess its better than the $7500.00 one my friend bought from RalfDecember 13, 2010 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #721807SJSinNYCMember
According to many rabbonim, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a sheitel that looks 100% natural.
Women cover their hair because its erva, not so that someone else can tell if they are covering their hair.
From someone who doesn’t own a sheitel.December 13, 2010 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #721808Monsey ReviewMember
waiting4mashiach – and any others – It is most certainly not rebellion! An unmarried girl has a Mitzvah of Tznius and should dress accordingly. She shouldn’t attracting any male’s attention because she’s not married! A married girl has a Mitzvah of Tznius – still needs to be within those parameters – and also has a Mitzvah of looking good and beautiful for her husband. The Mitzvah of covering her hair is because her hair is an Erva – it has nothing to do with her Shaitel being more beautiful or not. A married woman needs to look beautiful for her husband – even when outside the house. A man doens’t want to walk around with a Shmatte wife – he wants to walk around with a beautiful Tzniuskik wife he can be proud of. A put-together well-dressed woman looks like her husband takes care of her – this is a compliment to her husband.December 13, 2010 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #721809
Monsey Review very well said!December 13, 2010 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #721810
The posters on this thread do not represent anyone. The only people who have a problem with sheitels are the sfardim, and some chassidim. And maybe some litvishe chareidim in Israel.
Everyone in Lakewood wears sheitels.December 13, 2010 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #721811apushatayidParticipant
The real fraud is ignorant people passing themselves off as poskim.December 13, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #721812
The modern wig is a new invention, Chazal could not ban it.
Where exactly are you getting this information from. The gemara talks about ??? ????? and btw the Yerushalmi in Kesubos says that a woman is allowed to go out wearing what some translate as a wig.
Chazal say that hair of a married woman is ervah, she is not showing her hair. Now, I don’t see any extreme insensitivity to tznius involved in wearing a sheitel.
L’halacha I do not think there is any problem with sheitels, but I have a problem with your line of reasoning. If a woman’s hair is ervah, I don’t know why she should be allowed to wear a shaitel. Would it be proper for her to wear a shirt with a lifelike picture of her body on it? It’s not her body, it’s just a shirt! I suppose you will answer me that ain hochi nami the shirt would not be ‘ervah’, but it’s assur because it will cause hirhur, which is not so by the sheitel. In that case I don’t know why she should need a sheitel in the first place, because I think I can present a solid argument that there is room to say that anything which the chachomim called ‘ervah’ but to us does not cause hirhur, loses its din ervah. And to say that without the sheitel there is more hirur than with the beautiful, lifelike sheitel, is very ???? to me.
I do not think the ikkar requirement for women to cover their heads has anything to do with hair being ervah, but that is a different discussion.December 13, 2010 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #721813ImaofthreeParticipant
Why should Jews be embarressed that we pay lots of $$ for our shaitels? What should we wear, horse hair?
Women who don’t cover their hair spend way more money on coloring, cutting, high lighting, Japenesing, relaxing, etc etc. When I buy a wig it lasts me for a long time, because I try to get something that is good quality.
Fakairt, I think the Non Jews are very impressed that our wigs look nice and they can’t tell it’s a wig. It’s a kiddush Hashem when frum women dress modestly but nicely.December 13, 2010 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #721814cherrybimParticipant
“The Lubavitcher Rebbe was very makpid that his women should look good. He had nothing against red nail polish and custom made sheitels”
The Rebbe was a very wise judge of human character. And Lubavitcher women know how to take care of themselves, for their husbands. Why should a husband go out for hamburger when he has steak at home?December 13, 2010 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #721815
Of course she is allowed to wear a shirt with a graphic picture on it. As much as she can hold up posters with graphic pictures.December 13, 2010 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #721816SJSinNYCMember
Hair is subjectively erva. Meaning, her own hair once she is married is erva. Other hair is NOT erva.
A woman’s body is erva. At all times of her adult life.December 13, 2010 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #721817
Ha gufa. You think it’s ok for anyone to walk around with graphic posters? Let’s start over. Meheicha teisi a woman has to wear any clothing, forget about a sheitel? Don’t quote me ervah, that’s just referring l’gabei devarim shebikdusha or issur histaklus.December 13, 2010 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #721818
Right. I don’t know. You tell me what the mekor that she has to wear anything is.
It is hard to imagine it is a lifnei iver issue, since if so, there is much more of an issue with an attractive girl who is dressed properly, than a “less attractive” woman who is dressed in short sleeves.
In any event, holding posters of graphic pictures could only be lifnei iver, which is why I assume it it unrelated to this discussion.December 13, 2010 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #721820
I’m not so sure it’s not a lifnei iver issue. Find me a different makor.December 14, 2010 12:52 am at 12:52 am #721821
I don’t know what it is.December 14, 2010 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #721822A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Not that long ago many/some of us wore synthetic or synthetic blends. European hair is a relative “mainstream” newcomer, largely brought about since the Indian hair issue, prior to which human was good enough. But even back then, non-Jews, and for that matter, NYF, rarely could detect that it’s a wig. They don’t have that automatic antenna for sheitels that we frum women do.December 22, 2010 6:05 am at 6:05 am #721823wag the dogMember
hair today, gone tomorrow. I’m a hairy.December 22, 2010 8:32 am at 8:32 am #721824Derech HaMelechMember
I don’t understand why some of the women keep calling tichels shmattahs. My wife has some very nice looking tichels and the sephardim and chard”al have some very extravagant looking ones.December 22, 2010 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #721825
Because THEY don’t feel pretty and completely well dressed going out in a teichel. They want to go out with hair on their heads.December 22, 2010 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #721826enlightenedjewMember
The real fraud is the exorbitant prices these businesses charge for a shaitel. They hold people financially hostage because hair covering is a necessity…
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