The Real Problem

Hate to break it to you, I am probably as conservative as they come and I have no issue with working along side of who/ what ever my co workers are. If they are competent and do the job well who cares what they are.

SiM -“My point is that this level of societal breakdown in the US is going to lead to some very extreme outcomes, to the point that living in Israel will seem preferable, regardless of its imperfection.”

Whatever breakdown we have here – it will be worse in Israel.
Here we have religious people – ie. Xtians. Most Chilonim are against any type of Jewish Religion!

Charlie: Then explain why businesses and police departments and non-profits fire employees for racism (i.e. free speech) expressed off hours, off premises, on the employees personal time, if it becomes public in social media, mass media, etc.

How would frum jews feel if it was legal to be fired for leaving early for shabbos ? Wearing a sheitl and only tzniusdike clothing? wearing a yamulke ?

This is no different in the eyes of the law.

@dbrim, hashem will call us home on the great day, it should happen quickly. Until then we are in golus including in Efrat, Bet Shemesh and Chevron etc,
PS lets not turn this into an Israel vs the US, its about a US Supreme Court ruling

commonsaychel: If private companies shouldn’t be allowed to regulate their employees behavior outside of business hours, during their personal time off premises, by firing them for cross-dressing, posing as the opposite gender, and worse immoral behaviors, then I’m sure you also agree in order not to be hypocritical that private companies should be prohibited from firing employees who during their personal time off premises express very racist and xenophobic ideas in public, on social media, etc.

Joseph, it depends if your in a collective bargaining unit , then your contract rules supreme, most places of employment when they hire you usually put a clause in the hiring agreement saying they have a right to terminate you if you post something on social media that will reflect badly on the cooperate image.
A far cry from have a trans working a counter at a airline gate or serving meals in a restaurant.
PS its obvious that you never worked outside the daled amos of the frum area.

CS: If an employer can fire an employee working a counter at an airline gate or serving meals in a restaurant for expressing very racists or xenophobic on social media during his personal time off premises because it will reflect badly on the cooperate image, then on the same token an employer can fire an employee working a counter at an airline gate or serving meals in a restaurant for posting pictures on social media of himself cross dressing, posing as the opposite general or worse immoral behaviors during his personal time off premises that will reflect badly on the corperate image, as the restaurant or business he works for caters to a very religious clientele who strongly object to such behaviors.

AJ: Completely false. Even if that were true (which it isn’t), it would be irrelevant to this conversation.

Ok, so you have no problem having a man in a dress teach your children. Or having a man forcing himself into a ladies mikva bc he claims to really be a woman (this happened in l.a.) Or that you can thrown in jail or fined (I know not yet but coming quickly) for ‘misgendering’ .

None of this is a problem in ey. And no hooligans are rioting either and there are no inane calls to defund the police. And in a 180 degree difference, the right is gaining strength every day as opposed to America where AOC has a good chance of becoming President once she is able to start trying (even if she loses once, she can run again and again being quite young and energetic). This last point is the most crucial. The direction of the country.

Yes, the mapai/mapam origins of the Medina are not fully destroyed yet but they are getting weaker by the day. But America is running headlong in the opposite direction for many years now – on the trajectory away from liberty and towards fascism/communism. And to make matters worse, the only force stopping it – trump- is demonized by his own side. Maybe Trump and the normal part of America will succeed in reversing the tide, maybe not, so it is only common sense to be prepared for what has a good chance of coming to fruition.

@ By1212 and dbrim, the topic here is Bostock v Clayton, somehow or other this morphed into a whole other topic, if you want to go off topic then start a new one relating to Israel v US.
Let me just say this last comment, I am appointing both of you be motza me with the mitzva of Yishuv es haeretz just like I have Hatzloah represent me in saving lives. I will wait here until the geulah comes.

Wolf: How did you know they’re homosexuals?

Because they openly discuss having same sex partners.

Do you also know which people you work with are adulterers?

No, because no one (to the best of my recollection) has been open about being an adulterer.

Why would you know the former but not the latter?

Answered above.

The Wolf

@Joesph the only time one gets called on the carpet for posting a bigoted comment on the internet is when that person is in the position of power and it may reflect negatively on the perception of unequal treatment, therefore they have a right [and possible obligation] to terminate that person.
In the case of Bostock all he did was promote his gay baseball league, he certainly didn’t make negative remarks about heterosexuals.
In the case of Holly Lobby there are religious exceptions to workplaces.
So If someone works for Avis, Delta, Verizon or my local plumber and is a man who wears a dress who cares

“I’ve worked with gay people for years. Never once has this been a problem for me or for them.”
but when it comes to religious private schools/institution they dont want to hire a man wearing a dress as a teacher if it goes against their religion!! you tell the kids our religion says it forbidden to be trans/gay/etc and then your forced to give them a teacher whos trans because you dont want to be sued!!

AND it doesn’t matter whether the supreme court thinks its fair and is the morally correct thing to protect gays/trans, thats not their job to legislate! congress and the house is for that! their just supposed to interpret the law , and any sane person can realize that the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. … L. 88-352) , as amended, as it appears in volume 42 of the United States Code, beginning at section 2000e. Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin, does not refer to lgbtq

@some1, Masterpiece Cakeshop v Colorado allows for religious exemptions for same sex accommodations therefore it affect yeshivas.
As to the second part, that was the whole crux of this case, does the sex discrimination part of the Civil Right Act of 1964 including bases on orientation or just gender? and the Court ruled it to be broadly defined.

some1- Now with this ruling, Bostock v Clayton it includes LGBT. so its a moot point.

Som1,

You can say that you don’t agree with the decision, but don’t say that it was a false ruling because you don’t agree with it.

Judges determine how the laws are interpreted. The Supreme Court ruled that the 1964 law extends protection to how one defines their gender identity. There is a lot of precedent of the Supreme Court expanding the original coverage of a law.

Also they are not promoting LGBT culture. They are simply defining the law to protect people for their individual choices and make it harder for employers to fire an employee on a basis other than if they were competent to preform the tasks required for the job

@Health. Interesting, I worked for the Federal and NYC government as well corporate America, I never had an issue with Shabbos with one exception, once when I had a openly anti semtic boss who once wrote me a nasty email once for leaving early of Friday, I spoke to the number two person in HR who spoke to her and I never had an issue again.
The one time I had an issue when I was the finalist to get hired for NYC and my boss who was African American and wanted to hire the other finalist who was a African American, long story but I ended up getting the job, and this had nothing to do with Shabbos just that he preferred a African American.
Were you suing a private entity or a governmental agency?

Syag, on the contrary, Actually I know discrimination against Frum people is alive and well, I experienced it first hand, I was not hired numerous times even if I was the most qualified person because I am a visibly Frum person.
One of the funniest interviews I ever had was with a guy who was from rural Kentucky who never met a Jew in his life and asked me to explain “what that thing on my head is” I got the job anyway and he was one of the nicest people I ever worked for.
What I was bringing out in my comment is that as a rule once you are working at a place they generally don’t care about Shabbos or Yom tov as long as you carry your weight.
In any event we are veering off topic of Bostock v Clayton

CS -“Were you suing a private entity or a governmental agency?”

Private.

“I got the job anyway and he was one of the nicest people I ever worked for.”

That’s because he probably was a Conservative.

What the Libs (Jewish or not) don’t understand, they are the Biggest Racists!
1. The whole idea of Affirmative Action is to Discrimnate against Others.
2. I wasn’t hired because I kept Shabbos.

@Health, Actually Don was center / center left kind of a moderate blue dog dem on the few time that we talked politics, it was a learning experience for both of us. I had to teach him about Shabbos, Kosher etc. and he told me about life in rural Appalachia. The funnies conversations was when he would speak to my wife and she would speak in Brooklynese and he would talk in Appalachian and they hardly understood each other.

Dear Common,
I was wondering if the Zarda case would be discrimination according to the ruling. The customer was uncomfortable with the way he worked. If he was transgender, he could argue that a female would not be fired. Being gay does not seem to be a defense. He still has to be sensitive to the customers like any other male employee.

@n0m; Moot point, Zarda was consolidated with Bostock as was Harris Funeral Home, all had similar arguments from different circuits, [Georgia, New York and Michigan]

@dovidbt, religious exemptions was cover in the Mastercake decision last year, there are religious exemptions.