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There are clear statements in the Talmud Yerushalmi and the Rambam that the redemption will proceed slowly:
דֵּלֹמָא רִבִּי חִיָיא רַבָּא וְרִבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן חֲלַפְתָּא הַוּוּ מְהַלְּכִין בַּהֲדָא בִקְעַת אַרְבֶּל בִּקְרִיצְתָּה וְרָאוּ אַיֶילֶת הַשַׁחַר שֶׁבָּקַע אוֹרָהּ. אָמַר רִבִּי חִיָיא רַבָּה לְרִבִּי שִׁמְעוֹן בֶּן חֲלַפְתָּא בִּירְבִּי כַּךְ הִיא גְאוּלָּתָן שֶׁל יִשְׂרָאֵל בִּתְּחִילָּה קִימְאָה קִימְאָה כָּל מָה שֶׁהִיא הוֹלֶכֶת הִיא רָבָה וְהוֹלֶכֶת. מַאי טַעְמָא כִּי אֵשֵׁב בַּחוֹשֶׁךְ יי אוֹר לִי. כָּךְ בַּתְּחִילָּה וּמָרְדְּכַי יוֹשֵׁב בְּשַׁעַר הַמֶּלֶךְ. וְאַחַר כַּךְ וַיִּקַּח הָמָן אֶת הַלְּבוּשׁ וְאֶת הַסּוּס. וְאַחַר כַּךְ וַיָּשָׁב מָרְדְּכַי אֶל שַׁעַר הַמֶּלֶךְ. וְאַחַר כַּךְ וּמָרְדְּכַי יָצָא מִלִּפְנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ בִּלְבוּשׁ מַלְכוּת. וְאַחַר כַּךְ לַיְּהוּדִים הָיִתָה אוֹרָה וְשִׂמְחָה.
The great Rebbi Ḥiyya and Rebbi Simeon ben Ḥalaphta were walking in the valley of Arbela before morning and saw “the morning hind” that started radiating. The great Rebbi Ḥiyya said to Rebbi Simeon ben Ḥalaphta, the great man: so will be the deliverance of Israel; it starts out very little and grows and longer as it goes on. What is the reason (Micha 7:8): “When I shall dwell in darkness, the Lord is my light.” So also at the start (Esther 2:21): “Mordocai was sitting at the king’s gate.” After that (6:11): “Haman took the garment and the horse.” After that (6:12): “Mordocai returned to the king’s gate.” After that (8:15): “Mordocai left the king’s presence in royal garb.” After that (8:16): “The Jews had light and joy.”
(Talmud Yerushalmi, Berachos, Chpt. 1)The Rambam would seem to agree with the Talmudic statement where he writes at the end of Mishneh Torah regarding the Moshiach “If a king will arise from the House of David…”. The Rambam seems to be indicating that there will be a non-Torah Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael, without a Jewish king, before the Moshiach arises.
These statements from great Talmudic rabbis and from the Rambam demolish the radical Satmar/N.K./Chassidic claims that the redemption process must occur miraculously during a very short period while Jews are living in chutz l’aretz, thus Jews may not return to Eretz Yisrael before the Moshiach appears.
None of this can legitimize any replacement of Torah Judaism by a secular Zionist philosophy, rather secular Zionist philosophy must be discarded.
But one could say that the very dangerous and necessary first step in the geulah process, i.e. conquest of Eretz Yisrael, was accomplished by these secular Zionists with the help of Hashem.
Right Jew
That’s why we need to differentiate that we are in the process and it’s not in our control. Lol
That this system will not work our way
It will work within the framework of gods Devine way .
Gods wisdom is much higher then our wisdom. Which means what might look bad on the serface according to our close minded views are not always and will not always fallow the trajectory of Devine will. So everybody needs to calm down and carry on. Whatever will happen Is not in our control anyways.“הִנְנִי שֹׁלֵחַ מַלְאָכִי וּפִנָּה דָרֶךְ לְפָנָי, וּפִתְאֹם יָבוֹא אֶל הֵיכָלוֹ הָאָדוֹן אֲשֶׁר אַתֶּם מְבַקְשִׁים”
“RightJew” wrote:
“But one could say that the very dangerous and necessary first step in the geulah process, i.e. conquest of Eretz Yisrael, was accomplished by these secular Zionists with the help of Hashem. ”No, one cannot say that, because, in part, migalgilin zechus al yedai zakai… not via heretics who perpetrated a massive historical rebellion against G-d (and destruction of Judaism never seen before and still ongoing R”L L”A). The Brisker Rav stated that the “State” they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the satan since the golden calf. Obviously, no, that founding was not the “first step” in the redemption.
Of course, there were religious Jews who preceded the Zionists’ invasion, and those Jews came to the holy land for purely non-political reasons and not at all rebelling against G-d. Those could possibly have been a helpful backdrop, so to speak. In fact, both the Satmar Rav and Brisker Rav stated that Mashiach (i.e., the redemption) would have come back then – as in for sure would have come – if not for the founding of that “State” happening instead.
Hakatan. But it happened anyways. So it doesn’t matter what your beliefs are if it happened obviously god is smarter then you and he decided it was neccisary even if it didn’t fit the extreme box.
@nevuah
Not at all.First of all, by that logic, the Holocaust, with all its horrors, was also “necessary” for the redemption. Obviously, it was not.
Hashem had other reasons for that happening (and gedolim predicted that terrible things were going to happen then), but, to enable Mashiach coming, Hashem certainly didn’t need to bring a Holocaust, with all its horrors.As well, the reason the “State” did actually come into being is, as the gedolim (including the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav) noted: that people back then were fooled (by the satan) into praying for this idol “State” to happen instead of praying for Mashiach. Hashem’s response to those prayers was to accept them and to give them what they requested: the idol “State”.
The Brisker Rav said that אחכה לו בכל יום שיבא is actually a part of the 12th Ani Ma’amin.
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