THE REDEMPTION WILL PROCEED SLOWLY

Right Jew
That’s why we need to differentiate that we are in the process and it’s not in our control. Lol
That this system will not work our way
It will work within the framework of gods Devine way .
Gods wisdom is much higher then our wisdom. Which means what might look bad on the serface according to our close minded views are not always and will not always fallow the trajectory of Devine will. So everybody needs to calm down and carry on. Whatever will happen Is not in our control anyways.

“RightJew” wrote:
“But one could say that the very dangerous and necessary first step in the geulah process, i.e. conquest of Eretz Yisrael, was accomplished by these secular Zionists with the help of Hashem. ”

No, one cannot say that, because, in part, migalgilin zechus al yedai zakai… not via heretics who perpetrated a massive historical rebellion against G-d (and destruction of Judaism never seen before and still ongoing R”L L”A). The Brisker Rav stated that the “State” they have managed to achieve is the greatest triumph of the satan since the golden calf. Obviously, no, that founding was not the “first step” in the redemption.

Of course, there were religious Jews who preceded the Zionists’ invasion, and those Jews came to the holy land for purely non-political reasons and not at all rebelling against G-d. Those could possibly have been a helpful backdrop, so to speak. In fact, both the Satmar Rav and Brisker Rav stated that Mashiach (i.e., the redemption) would have come back then – as in for sure would have come – if not for the founding of that “State” happening instead.

@nevuah
Not at all.

First of all, by that logic, the Holocaust, with all its horrors, was also “necessary” for the redemption. Obviously, it was not.
Hashem had other reasons for that happening (and gedolim predicted that terrible things were going to happen then), but, to enable Mashiach coming, Hashem certainly didn’t need to bring a Holocaust, with all its horrors.

As well, the reason the “State” did actually come into being is, as the gedolim (including the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav) noted: that people back then were fooled (by the satan) into praying for this idol “State” to happen instead of praying for Mashiach. Hashem’s response to those prayers was to accept them and to give them what they requested: the idol “State”.

Small One, you say “First of all, by that logic, the Holocaust, with all its horrors, was also “necessary” for the redemption. Obviously, it was not.”. How do you know? Maybe the Holocaust was necessary for Mashiach to come? Are you suddenly a Navi, that knows Hashem’s cheshbonos?
EVERYTHING has a reason. We’re told that there will be terrible suffering before Mashiach comes, maybe the Holocaust was part of that?
We don’t know. Don’t make things up to suit your hate-filled beliefs.

HaKatan, sometimes HKB”H does things which eventually will lead to positive results and it is not done through “zakaim”. Look in Rambam, Hilchos Melochim 11:4 (the second half of that Halochah).

@mdd1
can you check your reference. is there a mistake or can you quote and explain?

4 things
When you brought up the holocaust. That’s when you missed the point
I debate a lot all over the internet ok? Not just here
I debate abortion
I debate feminism
People go crazy.
You know what happens every time you say “abortion is wrong?”
“But what about the 1% that this and this happened to”
And they’ll make 1 percent so dramatic, and push you against the wall to answer them, and tell me I’m a terrible person that I don’t “care” about people suffering.
You know what I call that tho?
Missing the point…
There is a pattern among brainwashed people
They can’t see sense.
They don’t want to.
That’s ok. Reality exists and continues to exist despite your beliefs.

@JerusalemR

First of all the mitzva of yishuv E”Y today is, at most, optional, or not in force at all.
Regardless, there were many religious Jews who attempted to NON-politically live there, and the locals had no problems with that – unlike the invading Zionists.

Yes, of course the Zionist invasion was exactly that. The religious Jews in E”Y begged them to leave and also told the UN that they were a separate community not under control of the invading Zionists. The Zionists fought against both the British and the Arabs well before 1948 – all against the wishes of the religious Jews there, as mentioned.

Zionism is, of course, an idol and its ideology is, of course, heresy, as per all the gedolim. People prayed for the founding of the “State” and success of this idol. Obviously I did not write that Hashem accepted prayers to idols; He accepted prayers TO HIM for the BENEFIT of that idol.

No gedolim “felt otherwise” against the Brisker Rav.

It’s really not very difficult to comprehend these simple facts, and no debate is necessary.
Please consult with your LOR. Presumably, you could find a real one in Jerusalem of all places.

Then again, with this last quote, I wonder if you are even serious:
““In fact, both the Satmar Rav and Brisker Rav stated that Mashiach (i.e., the redemption) would have come back then – as in for sure would have come – if not for the founding of that “State” happening instead.”
Doesn’t go against Chazal and the Rambam who condemn those who calculate the End?”

No, not at all. They simply noted that it would have happened then; not that they “calculated” in advance when it would happen, but rather that it would have happened then.

Please urgently consult with an LOR.

I think it is kefirah to claim that the velt consists of Satmar Ruv, Brisker Rov and “all other gedolim agree with them”. Saaying it once is ok, but saying it all the times means this is how he sees all Talmidei chachomim.

Not only it is bizayon to “all other gedolim” but also to Satmar and Brisker who would not say so themselves.

Hakatan. God uses imperfect people
Difference

When I said “bad” I meant. Not in “alignment” with your belief system
There’s a huge difference

“In case it wasn’t already clear”
Not clear at all.

“there were many religious Jews”
No, there were not many religious Jews there.

“and the locals had no problems with that”
1834 Safed. 1929 Chevron. Centuries of discrimination and persecution. Moderation of discriminatory practices did occur, but that moderation occurred in the period immediately preceding proto-Zionist immigration. And note the term “moderation”, anti-Semitism still persisted. To make a sweeping generalization over a temporary phenomenon is dishonest.

“invading Zionists…The religious Jews in E”Y begged them to leave .”
What invasion? Immigration isn’t an invasion. Begging them to leave doesn’t make it an invasion. Please show that all religious Jews begged them to leave.

“all against the wishes of the religious Jews there”
There were religious Jews in paramilitary/defense organizations.

“Zionism is, of course, an idol”
Do you know what idol means?

” and its ideology is”
This doesn’t make sense. Zionism is an ideology. Or more accurately there are several ideologies that are called Zionism.

“Obviously I did not write that Hashem accepted prayers to idols”
It wasn’t obvious. You wrote ‘praying for this idol’ which is awkward. As I’ve noted, people pray to idols, not for idols. You were unclear, not obvious. And you’re still not clear as you haven’t explain what it means to pray for an idol when people don’t do that. You fabricated an illogical concept; you don’t provide a shred of evidenced; and then you declare it obvious.

“He accepted prayers TO HIM for the BENEFIT of that idol.”
A little less heretical, but still theologically radical.

“No gedolim “felt otherwise” against the Brisker Rav.”
The fact is that many gedolim considered (at least at the time) that the founding of the State was אתחלתא דגאולה. (Not all religious Zionists agree.)

” not that they “calculated” in advance when it would happen, but rather that it would have happened then.”
Calculations can happen after the fact, and the Rambam makes no such distinction. You concocted a חילוק and shoved it into the Rambam. There are serious problems with the concept that משיח would have arrived had there not been Zionism: As per the Rambam (citing Chazal), גאולה must be preceded by תשובה of the nation. There was no such תשובה in 1948 among non-Zionists. Consider the anti-Zionist Jewish communists in 1948- where was their תשובה? So the Brisker Rav’s alleged statement must be taken as either apocryphal or exageration- but certainly problematic hashkafically.

Summary:
No evidence of invasion. No explanation/evidence of an idol. No explanation/evidence for the radical non-traditional notion that Hashem listens to prayers for idols. No justification for calculating the קץ despite offering a weak חילוק. Denial of well known facts concerning gedolim who didn’t agree with the more extreme positions of Satmar and some of Brisk.

> Torah life and learning began growing in the United States and – despite ongoing Zionist shmad – in E”Y as well

Oy, so modeh es haemes, just calling it “despite”. Karl Popper defined a “theory” as something that is falsifiable. That is, if I claim that temperature tomorrow will be higher than 20C, this will be true or false. But if I say “tomorrow will be a good day” without defining what is “good, and then say that nice rain is a good day for agriculture – then this is not a theory. Rambam’s definition of a navi is similar – negative predictions are not falsifiable, as Hashem can rescind them, but positive ones should be verified.

An example above shows that some opinions or even “nevuos” are no theories – when confronted with reality, the reality is explained away. To show that my position is not correct, maybe you can show an explicit line is Rav Elchonon where he says – yes, zionist rule in EY will allow numerous yeshivos, and the non-religious government will subsidize their learning, kindergarten and housing, and protect them from sonei yisroel – but it still will be a bad thing.

For SomeJewIKnow:

Because you falsely slandered millions of Israeli Jews,
by calling it a “Nazi state” (Motzi Shem Ra),
you will be punished for ALL of the sins of Israeli Jews,
in addition to being punished for your own sins 🙂 🙂

In addition, your descendants will be cursed without mercy,
for at least 1,000 generations,
in addition to being declared mamzeirim 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

Laugh now, while you still can,
because when your punishment comes, you will not be laughing.

Your Gehinom punishment will NEVER end; not after 10 years,
not after 100 years, and not after 10,000 years 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

@square_root
there are many kosher jews that lived and died under the german nazi regime as there are that live and die under their partner zionist nazi regime.

@jerusalemr
chufetz chaim, satmar rebbe, brisker ruv, rav yitzchok hutner, and a lot more.

chufetz chaim??

I thought these were all rather well know.

====
Excerpt from Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s “The Empty Wagon”:

Chofetz Chaim said about the Jewish communists, the Yevsektsii:

I am certain they are from the seed of Amalek.

The Yevsektsii were established in 1918 with the goal of helping the communists destroy Yiddishkeit in Russia. They functioned for about ten years, after which they were disbanded because they were no longer needed. R. Elchonon adds that the Chofetz Chaim’s statement about the Yevsektsii being Amalek also applies to the Zionists, the “misyavnim [secularists] in Eretz Yisroel who are the Yevsektsii themselves, for there is no difference between them except that these write in Yiddish jargon and those write and talk in Ivrit — the ‘new Hebrew.’ But regarding both groups, Hashem swore that His name shall not be whole, nor His throne complete, until they are extinguished from the world.” (Kovetz Maamarim, Ikvesa D’Meshicha, p. 261)

====
Excerpt from Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro’s “The Empty Wagon”:

In October 1977, the Agudah’s monthly magazine, The Jewish Observer, published an address that R. Yitzchok Hutner gave for Torah Umesorah on the question of whether it is appropriate for the yeshivos to institute a curriculum of holocaust studies. In it, Rav Hutner explained what motivated the state of Israel to circulate the notorious canard that the gedolei Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of European Jewry because they told their people to remain in Europe and not to migrate to Eretz Yisroel. Israel did it, the Rav Hutner explained, “to cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events.”
He described the Mufti’s role in ensuring that the Jews of Europe would never be able to escape to Palestine, and how much Hitler wanted to cooperate with the Mufti:

“The extent of the Mufti’s influence upon the Nazi forces may be seen in a crucial decision made by Hitler at the height of the war. Railroad trains were much in demand by the Axis, and Hitler’s troops badly needed reinforcements in Russia. Yet, soon after he landed in Berlin in November , the Mufti demanded that all available resources be used to annihilate Jews. The choice: Juden nach Auschwitz or Soldaten nach Stalingrad [Jews to Auschwitz or soldiers to Stalingrad] was to be resolved his way … Two months later (January 2, 1942) at the Wannsee Conference, the formal decision was made to annihilate all Jews who had survived the ghettos, forced labor, starvation, and disease.

Of course, the Mufti was serving his own perverted fears, which was the influx of millions of Jews into Palestine and the destruction of the Mufti’s personal empire. Yet, there can be no doubt that through their symbiotic relationship, Hitler and the Mufti each helped the other accomplish his own evil goal. Eichmann simply wanted to kill Jews; the Mufti wanted to make sure they never reached Palestine. In the end, the “final solution” was the same … At one point, Eichmann even seemed to blame the Mufti for the entire extermination plan when he declared, “I am a personal friend of the Grand Mufti. We have promised that no European Jew would enter Palestine any more.”

Then Rav Hutner points out something that the Zionists are eerily silent about:

It should be manifest, however, that until the great public pressures for the establishment of a Jewish state, the Mufti had no interest in the Jews of Warsaw, Budapest, or Vilna. Once the Jews of Europe became a threat to the Mufti because of their imminent influx into the Holy Land, the Mufti in turn became for them the Malach Hamaves — the incarnation of the Angel of Death. Years ago, it was still easy to find old residents of Yerushalayim who remembered the cordial relation they had maintained with the Mufti in the years before the impending creation of the Jewish state. Once the looming reality of the state of Israel was before him, the Mufti spared no effort in influencing Hitler to murder as many Jews as possible in the shortest amount of time. This shameful episode, where the founders and early leaders of the State were clearly a factor in the destruction of many Jews, has been completely expunged from the record. Thus it is that our children who study the history of that turbulent era are taught that gedolei Yisroel share responsibility for the destruction of European Jewry and learn nothing of the guilt of others who are now enshrined as heroes.

The Zionists made up a story about the gedolei Yisroel because the best defense is a good offense. Remember: The goal of Zionism was to convince the Jewish people that following the Torah leaders results in death and following the Zionist heretics leads to life, redemption, and renewal. Zionism relies on propaganda, and this little tidbit is a prime example.

====
R’ Chaim Brisker

1. “The Zionists did not want to destroy Judaism in order to create their state; rather, they wanted to create their state in order to destroy Judaism. “
2. “Zionism is the most dangerous of all heretical movements that have emerged throughout Jewish history, because the Zionists knew exactly where to shoot their arrows in order to dismantle Judaism. “
3. “Usually, the yetzer hara does not have the ability to convince Klal Yisroel as a whole to sin unless it dresses up the aveirah as a mitzvah. But it is beyond even the yetzer hara’s ability to dress up Zionism as a mitzvah, and therefore it is attempting to convince the nation to commit a sin even without portraying it as a mitzvah. R. Boruch Ber Leibowitz explained: Although one might think that the yetzer hara was portraying Zionism as being connected with the mitzvah of yishuv haAretz (settling the land), it was clearly not so. “Imagine,” he said, “if someone would take a mezuzah and use it as a good luck charm, affixing it to the door with that intent. Would anyone think that such an act has any connection to a mitzvah?”
4. Someone told R. Chaim that the Jews may yet win the war against Zionism, for it seems that the nations will decide not to give the Zionists a territory. R. Chaim responded that it is too late. The Zionists have already won, because they got the Jews to look at themselves as a nation.

Yes, Chofetz Chaim condemned Jewish communists, this is well known. Now, you are saying that Rav Elchonon applies this also to Zionists in EY.

First, I thought the poster just made a silly mistake, but turns out he was actively committing gnevas daas – trying to convince readers that Rav E extension of what Chofetz Chaim said is actually “Chofetz Chaim”. As he kindly expanded on his “quote” (thanks!), it seems that his mind is not settled on what quoting is. As we learn from Megilah that quoting the original author is a big mailah, it is important to work on this middah further!

On Rav E, it is clear, at least from this quote, that he is talking about misyavnim, who are exactly the same as evsekim – and indeed there were groups that were communist or near-communist groups in Israel. There is nothing here about R Kook and such, of course, although I will not be surprised that there are other quotes like that.

What made me thinking – I do not see here, and did not encounter in other places, Chofetz Chaim talking about such groups in EY. We have hispossible quotes that he wanted both Old Yishuv and Rav Kook students learn Mishna Berurah, but it would be very surprising that there are not at least some groups in EY that he did not like. Do we have any such quotes. He did write about “culturual” schools and such in Poland, although also not being too specific. I would be interested to understand how Chofetz Chaim dealt with these issues. Anyone?

PS The alleged quoted from R Chaim is yet another second-hand quote from Chofetz Chaim. The lack of first-hand Chofetz Chaim words is astounding, given amount of writing he left.

Always ask questions “quoting the original author is a big mialah”
Hmm say that to the commentators on the other thread that keep bashing me for quoting the actual text….hmm interesting how we use one way of thinking for some things then don’t apply that same logic to other things. That’s interesting.