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gavra, Also, as a result of Kol Kevudah and other Chazal’s a psak won’t be that a woman must work in an office type environment. At most, perhaps, home bound work. Did you hear of any psak on this issue regarding tuition breaks?
estherh: thanks for doing a fine job in answering original post.
A reference to Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Pnimah, Is Found in this weeks parsha,
When the Malachim asked Avraham where is Sarah your wife, he replied
Hinei Ba’Ohel! This is to say that a jewish woman, the daughter of the King
Is supposed to be at home not roaming the streets. If she must go to work,
She should be behave like the Bas Melech she is.
The chinuch roundtable from Parshas Bereishis discussed this. Many of them felt that women working outside the home was a machala and was causing much of today’s chnuch problems. however, it’s difficult even for working families to make ends meet on one income. We live in a difficult generation. No easy answers. Those who are zoche to be part of the “reishis” and in kolel must make sure they give their kids extra attention.
A person has to do what is necessary, its not really anybodys place for anyone to tell women whether or not they should work. Personally, I worked in a goyim corporation B”H that I had that job, even though in Mexico its almost unheard of for a religious girl to work anywhere other than schools.I tried not to tell people about my job because they would get shocked. While I don’t work now, it bothers me if people tell me comments such as why don’t I work. Its a decision between a husband and a wife. Period!
Thev role of a frum woman… Is to do what she can do best a housewife,teacher,secretary,etc- i think that is not a question and not but into peoples lifes and tell them if they should work or not!
Sometimes people have the necessity to work, so to tell people to work or not it is not anybody business, it is best for a woman to stay home with her children but sometimes a person has the need wether the husband is in Kollel or not. Most people go to work out of necessity, people do not work just for fun. So the role of a jewish woman I think in my opinion is to be next to her husband support him and teach the children the way of Torah, When I say a woman has to support her husband I mean psychological, spiritual and give him courage to learn and work to provide for a jewish home so mitzvot should be kept. If she can help in the parnasah why Not? Of course there is also a role of a husband that should be discussed.
Regarding our attitude towards careers and work, ponder the following: “B’zeiat apecha tochal lechem” “Yegiah kapecha ki tochal, ASHRECHA v’tov lach.” “V’ameich kulom tzadikim, leolam yirshu eretz, nezer mata’ai, ma’aseh yadai lehitpaer.” Clearly the Torah looks favorably upon those who take pride in their jobs and their labors. Why do we int he frum community feel the need to discount the value of that which the Torah esteems?
MM: Have posted in other threads what you are mechuyav to give up to pay. Once again (as I learned there) this may not apply in Brooklyn, where tuition is not expected to be paid. The Psak I got was that it depends on what the school says (i.e. if they say “we will be happy with 60%” without any checking of income etc., then that is what they really expect).
I have no problem if you can pay what you need to by having your wife do “inside” work. The question is what to do when that is not possible.
cantoresq:
Herd mentality, Negius and the mindset of seeking an easy way out.
The first responder to the roundtable above (I don’t remember who it was) was actually against mass kollel and said it should only be for the top few, who would be able to be fully supported (including ALL costs) with what the klal is now paying out to many.
So its not only you, other rabbonim agree we have gone too far.
The Torah did turn the klalah of work into a bracha that one gets nachas from his work. However, the ikkar is still Torah. Pirkei Avos says the world stands on Torah, Avodah (of Hashem), and gemilas Chasadim, not work, money, and fame. A person who works as a janitor is still working. However, it’s not the same thing as working as a top surgeon or lawyer, where one makes much more for his efforts. Everyone does get olam haba (except for apikorsim who deny the historicity of Tanach, but that’s for another thread.)However, someone who learns a little bit by sdaying krias shema does not get the same sechar as someoen who sepnds all of his day engaged in Torah and mitzvos. Even a working man is mechuyav to spend his down time learning.
Jothar- a top surgeon may be well compensated, but he also helps people and saves lives and although not sitting in the Beis Midrash, I would say that he spends his day engaged in mitzvos.
justaguy, That depends on the surgeons intentions. If his primary motivator is the gelt, I don’t see any mitzvos racking up on his cheshbon.
MM- I don’t really disagree, but we need surgeons. They get compensated for it. What’s the problem?
Isn’t saving a life a mitzvah regardless of the motivation?
The torah teaches us that motivation is a major roll in our lives, we cannot make mitzvot without the right intention . That is what we call Kabanah, we have to say Berachos with Kavanah, we have to keep Shabbat with Kabbanah every aspect in our lives have to be done with the right intention otherwise is not the same. So if a person takea a job with the right intention I think the reward is great.
and gelt, by itself, is a very poor motivator.
The mishna says “Tov sheberofim legehinnom”- the best of doctors are going to Hell. This is in the last mishna in seder nashim, and you can often hear a pshetel on this when someone is making a siyum.
Hatzalah guys are also involved in saving lives. So a kollel guy who’s on Hatzalah would make everyone here happy, correct?
The Gemorah asks “How do women merit Olam Haboh?”
And the only method the Gemorah lists is “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash.”
That, the Gemorah says, is the way for you to get Olam Haboh.
And of course getting Olam Haboh is your purpose for being on this world.
In my opinion it is completely understandable if a woman wishes to gain Torah by studying it herself rather than by vicariously getting it by cooking and cleaning for her husband.
Mezonos Maven:
Very good. So a mother who works hard so that she can pay to send her children to yeshiva gets the most reward? 🙂
(Side point): Olam Haba is not our purpose. Our purpose is to connect with and serve the Borei Olam. Olam Haba is a side point (Al Minas Shelo Lekabel Pras).
starwolf, I’m not MM, but the gemara just says “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash”. No earning a living, cooking, or cleaning required, according to this gemara.
cantoresq,
I’m offended by your question. Are you implying that only “scholars” go to the Bais Hamedrash? Have you never encountered the countless individuals who go to learn Torah after work, who have a chavrusah after work, who go to a shiur after work?
You must have hit the send button before thinking…
Parenthetically, cantoresq, not every “scholar” in in Bais Medrash all day, and not every individual in Bais Medrash every day is an accomplished scholar (yet). The question still remains: Only scholars go to Bais Medrash for a study session? How strange, and how offensive a concept.
Bemused- I think you need to read carefully- cantoresq merely asked a question of MM. I think cantoresq agrees with you. Cantoresq’s question does not imply what you think it does. Scholar is a compliment, and I for one, am happy to call someone who goes to the Beis Hamedrash, whether for an hour after work, or all day, a scholar. I can’t make heads or tails of why you are offended.
Just-a-guy,
Here is some clarification for you:
MM stated: “The Gemorah asks “How do women merit Olam Haboh?”And the only method the Gemorah lists is “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash.”
Ok. We know that. Most of us have heard that at some point.
cantoresq then queried of MM: “So only women who married scholars have a ticket to heaven”? (approximation- his comment had been subsequently deleted)
My obvious question: What does “waiting for their husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash have to do with “scholar”? Many women wait for their “non-scholar” husbands to come home from the Bais Hamedrash, and are proud of their “non-scholar” husbands for making the time to learn Torah paramount, even after a hard day’s work. Cantoresq’s question was therefore offensive, in his implication that “waiting for husband to come home from the Bais Hamedrash” can only apply to a “woman who has married a scholar”.
Hope this clears things up.
Bemused- I’ll wait for cantoresq to chime in and defend himself, but in my opinion, cantoresq made the reasonable assumption that what MM was saying was that a woman who is waiting for a husband to come home from the Bais Hamidrash is waiting for a full-time learner, ergo, waiting for someone to come home from work won’t warrant a place in the Olam Haboh. Second, you insist that there are scholars and non-scholars who go to the Bais HaMedrash. Why make this distinction? If you have a husband who works and then learns after work, call him a scholar? He’s engaged in scholarship isn’t he? If he was also a part-time plumber, would you say, how dare you call him a plumber, he’s only plumbing when he’s not learning.
Your post doesn’t clear anything up, it just reiterates the mistake you already made.
All cantoresq did was interpret, either correctly or incorrectly, MM’s position, which itself could be construed as offenseive, i.e., only a woman who supports a learner merits a place in the world to come.
justaguy, It wasn’t MM’s position. It is the Gemorah’s position.
The Torah, the Gemara, etc., are all complex. They require interpretation. If they weren’t, there’d be nothing to learn. When people post here, they are posting their specific selections, and thereby inject an extra layer of interpretation into the discussion.
MM, why don’t you clarify- does the Gemara you rely on refer only to a full time learner, or does it cover anyone who manages to squeeze in some time in the Bais Hamedrash?
EDITED
“cantoresq made the reasonable assumption that what MM was saying was that a woman who is waiting for a husband to come home from the Bais Hamidrash is waiting for a full-time learner, ergo, waiting for someone to come home from work won’t warrant a place in the Olam Haboh”
Oy. Reasonable? It’s a wild assumption. Why on earth would cantoresq think that MM believes coming home from the Bais Medrash means full time learning? What shaychus? Do you live in a community in which most observant men are full time learners (because most observant men attend a shiur a couple of times during the week, or have a chavrusah/learn by themselves at designated times)? Even Lakewood doesn’t have such a large ratio of full-time learners to working shiur-goers (at least 25% are working, or so I’m told), such that someone would automatically assume a man coming home from a Bais Hamedrash must be a full-time learner. It’s a v-e-r-y strange assumption.
“Second, you insist that there are scholars and non-scholars who go to the Bais HaMedrash. Why make this distinction? If you have a husband who works and then learns after work, call him a scholar? He’s engaged in scholarship isn’t he? If he was also a part-time plumber, would you say, how dare you call him a plumber, he’s only plumbing when he’s not learning.”
Uh, it’s about semantics, not feelings. Scholar has a few definitions. According to Random House Dictionary, scholar is defined as follows:
1. a learned or erudite person, esp. one who has profound knowledge of a particular subject.
2. a student; pupil.
3. a student who has been awarded a scholarship.
Many wonderful and observant men don’t consider themselves learned or erudite, and being learned and erudite is not a prerequisite to being dedicated to a shiur or learning seder. The Torah is open to all, and every Jew has the right and privilege to learn Torah, regardless of erudition.
The second definition might apply, if the term is used conventionally to apply to men who go to a shiur or have a set learning time. I haven’t heard it used that way; feel free to disagree though.
Cantoresq’s comment was a mistake, you seem to be willfully misunderstanding my comments, and all’s well that ends well.
Have a good Shabbos.
Bemused- I think you’re willfully misunderstanding cantoresq’s comment.
But Good Shabbos to you as well.
I have great respect for the moderators who do an excellent job with a very important task. I happen to feel thought, that my above post which indicates that it was edited, was edited such that the meaning is lost. Thus, I ask that people not consider it and respond to it. That said, I am not pleading with the moderator to reconsider his decision, who is always reasonable.
My my, I seem to have caused a mighty buzz in the hive. Juxtaposing a number of MM’s comments, to the one to which I replied, I assumed he was referring to full time learners. People who learn full time are scholars. They might be erudite, competant or poor ones, but they are scholars none the less. Thus I asked MM if he understood the passage of the Gemara he quoted to mean that only the wives of scholars merit a place in heaven. But Just a guy makes a good point that the Gemara could be referring to people who do not learn full time but are kovea itim; something I didn’t consider at the time. So I need to modify my question to MM. I’ll try to make it all encompassing: “MM based on your understanding of the passage you quoted, can women attain a share of olam habah if neither their husbands or children ever learn any Torah?” Hope that clears things up. I’d be happy to hear from MM on my question as modified.
EDITED
“MM based on your understanding of the passage you quoted, can women attain a share of olam habah if neither their husbands or children ever learn any Torah?”
cantoresq, based on my understanding of the passage I quoted and on the limited description you provided of the women you refer to, I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah.
Mazca that why we have to solve the shidduch crisis, don’t you agree?
I woman can have a great Olam Habah in her own merits and can have spiritual children like Sara Shneirer did. So even if there is a shidduch crisis and a lot of girls are not getting married they still have a place in Am Ysrael. But of course I wish there should never be any single men or women.
cantoresq,
That’s much better. Incidentally, it was I who pointed out that the “coming home from Bais Hamedrash” applies to working shiur goers and the like (kovea itim), not just-a-guy. I’m sure he is satisfied, though, with the new revision. Glad that’s resolved.
MM,
I must be missing something here. A woman has no chiyuv to marry. The Gemarah you referenced did not include any terminology indicating that waiting for husband etc is the *exclusive* path to olam habah- how you extrapolate from that that “I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah” is beyond puzzling. Did you realize what you were saying?
Mezonos Maven posted: “cantoresq, based on my understanding of the passage I quoted and on the limited description you provided of the women you refer to, I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah. “
Luckily, MM dos not know who merits olam haba, that knowledge is limited to HKB”H.
As far as his interpretation goes, I would prefer to accept the simple pshat of the first pasuk in Avot.
Bemused,
Please read the conversation carefully prior to hitting send. cantoresq’s query referred to a married woman who has children, and none of them ever learn any Torah.
MM, I most certainly have been following this interesting conversation carefully. It’s been great reading, particularly the literal tendencies that are most interesting to read…
Here’s cantoresq’s revised question again: “MM based on your understanding of the passage you quoted, can women attain a share of olam habah if neither their husbands or children ever learn any Torah?”
Here’s your response: “cantoresq, based on my understanding of the passage I quoted and on the limited description you provided of the women you refer to, I don’t see anything they’ve done to merit Olam Haboah.”
Here are some possibilities for your perusal:
The woman’s husband doesn’t learn Torah because she doesn’t have a husband yet.
The woman’s children don’t learn Torah because she doesn’t have children yet.
The woman’s husband is not able to learn because of reasons beyond his or her control(can you think of some reasons?).
The woman’s children are not able to learn because of reason’s beyond their or her control.
The woman’s children are infants and are not yet learning Torah.
The woman is a ba’al Teshuva and her husband/children aren’t and he/they refuse to learn Torah.
Can you think of some more?
Do you know what exclusive terminology means?
Do you know the difference between “only gets Olam Haba if…” and “gets Olam Haba by…”?
Shavua Tov.
Bemused,
You are making another error as well. Women need Torah. Without Torah, you cant get Olam Habah. And so the Gemora asks the question: Nashim b’,ai zachyan – How do women merit Olam Habah if they do not learn Torah?
The Gemora answers; Bakroei banaihu l’bei kenishta, ib’asniyei gavraihu bai rabanon – by supporting and helping their husband and children learn.
Hi MM,
You haven’t exactly clarified my first “error”, so how can I be making “another error”. Just semantics, don’t mind me…
Yes, women need Torah. Your response is not a response; is simply presents the Gemorah again, which most of us know. In what way did your last comment address any of my questinos?
I don’t think the moderators want me to copy and paste my question above- they have more than enough to read. So I will post just one teensy example again- the more interesting one: What if The woman is a ba’al Teshuva and her husband/children aren’t and he/they refuse to learn Torah. Can this woman earn Olam Haba by learning the parts of Torah that are appropriate for a woman to learn; by giving tzedaka to help pay tuition for the poor child of someone else; by keeping Shabbos carefully; be refraining from speaking Lashon Hara; by making meals for invalids; by saying Brachos with lots of Kavana; by dressing with Tznius; by greeting her neighbors with a smile…enough pixels.
So…Do you know the difference between “only gets Olam Haba if…” and “gets Olam Haba by…”?
EDITED
Sorry MM–we all did read your quote of the Gemara.
But we (at least myself, not presuming to speak for anyone else) are interested in each others’ opinions, not only in quotes of the Gemara.
You were asked: do you believe that that is the ONLY way for a woman to merit Olam Haba.
In other words, what about the examples given above by Bemused?
Bemused,
EDITED
Yes, the ONLY way the Gemora says to get Olam Haboah for a man OR woman is Torah. And the only method the Gemora lists – the ONLY one – is: “By sending their children off to the Bais Hamedrash, and by waiting for their husbands to come home forom the Bais Hamedrash.”
That, the Gemora says, is THE way for you to get Olam Haboah.
So according to MM’s interpretation, young unmarried girls do not get olam haba, career women do not get olam haba, etc. etc–no matter what else they do in their lives, no matter how many mitzvot they perform. Of course this directly contradicts the Mishna that I quoted above. Unless, of course, MM thinks that “Kol Yisrael yesh lahem chelek l’olam haba” does not include women.
It is so easy to latch on to a single phrase from the Gemara, one which makes a suggestion on how a woman can merit olam haba, and decide that this is the only way–simply because it is the only way mentioned. (Actually, I do not know if this is really the only way mentioned; I have not learned all of Shas.)
Actually, MM, I was being Dan L’kaf Zechus. I’m sorry that you don’t seem to understand my question or the concepts presented, I’m sure there’s a good reason for it, if it’s not age.
Oh well. I guess I’m not getting Olam Habah. No husband, no children. Can I stop learning and doing mitzvos now, since obviously they don’t matter?
I do not know gemora but I do know a lot of people deserving of Olam Habah in many other ways.
None of us are G’d’s accountants but curious for people’s opinions: there was a great woman in Baltimore, a true tzadekes who hadn’t married but did untold and unbelievable amounts of chesed, all an outgrowth of her Torah-oriented life (wish I knew how to put those last three words in bold, or italics). Do you mean that her ONLY ticket to olam haba was the tzedaka she gave to yeshivos, or the married women she helped so their husbands can learn, or the carpools she drove as pinch hitter?
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