The Role Of A Frum Woman, Controversial!

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    You missed the point. The Gemorah’s point is Limud Torah. If the woman’s chesed enables someone to engage in Limud Torah, then that merits Olam Haboah.


    I wonder if MM and thopse with similar opinions believe that Dr. Nechama Leibowitz merited olam haba by her own (considerable) Torah learning.


    You’re still not answering anyone’s question…Oh well, I guess participants here have access to Rabbanim, and can get true Torah answers the right way. Blog Torah is a lot of fun, but not not very bountifull in the value department :).



    We all do enjoy the give-and-take here, and no not to take anything too seriously… But since you are not able to supply an answer to the obvious question, don’t feel bad. We’re not taking the information here as “hadracha” or Torah true guidance; it’s just an outlet for us, and once we see we won’t be getting an answer, we turn to the next interesting thread.


    we turn to the next interesting thread- we as either in royal we or if anyone would like me to speak on their behalf (no charge) :).


    I think its time for you to get yourself hitched. 🙂


    I wish I knew more slang, MM. Or perhaps it’s a case of my ignorance is bliss? Whatever it means, I’m on other topics now, and I’ll leave it up to our Rabbanim and Torah leaders to guide us on such serious inyanim.

    See you on other threads!


    just-a-guy: I never took you to be so humorless!


    I’m entitled to be a curmudgeon.


    MM- You thought it was a cop out? And here I was thinking that I’d better give up waiting for an answer. No, I still don’t know what “hitching” means, but something tells me I’m better off not knowing these words…

    Did you mean you copped out from giving us an answer, and I copped out in return from increasing my repertoire of slang words? I suppose so.


    Bemused: Sorry if you didn’t like, accept, and/or understand the answer. But an answer you most certainly did get — elucidated in 3 different ways in fact.

    Hitched is slang for married.

    See you on other threads! 🙂




    That’s…disgusting. Sorry to be so frank. I’m probably closer to the age of your grandmother than to you. You can’t know that, so you can’t be blamed for that, but I’m disgusted at the use of such terminology for even the very young.

    Regarding your “answer”, you stated the Gemorah in three different ways. Not once did you answer the questions of myself, mazca, starwolf, tzippi, and haifagirl (who is your partner in “polygamy pushing”, so I’d think you’d give her a bit more consideration…).

    However, it’s ok. Really. Happy blogging.


    To haifagirl,

    It’s still possible for you to get married and have kids. Don’t give up.


    Sorry bubbele, you may have not liked the answer, but the Gemorah was the answer. And no, I had no way of knowing you were in 90 year range.


    B –

    I really don’t think it productive to get into a personal tit-for-tat with you. I really have no beef with you, even though you’ve made a number of incorrect presumptions. So I apologize for any misunderstanding or hurt feelings, and will leave it at that – and be happy to converse with you on other topics if that is not objectionable to you.


    You’re right, MM. Bubbeleh and other such terms have no place in the YWCR. I understand that you wish to leave it at that- you were not able to answer, and as I’ve stated before, that’s OK. You don’t have to have all the answers, and I’m sure you realize that. I don’t have all the answers either. As I’ve said before, most of us don’t take hadracha from a blog, so after a couple of attempts (or more), it’s OK for me to say, I guess he’s not going to be able to answer this, and for you to say, I guess I can’t answer this one.

    I really don’t know why I am responding to this non-dialogue, but Mods, if you want to delete this because you are totally yawning from the empty back and forth, I totally empathize and would do the same :).


    MM- you say you have no beef with Bemused but you speak in a very disrespectful and inappropriate matter.


    It is unlike that wee will receive any other answersd form MM than “the gemara says it”.

    I understand his dilemma.

    Many women may well not wish to believe that the only way for them to merit Olam Haba is through the actions of their husbands and male children.

    They may well get the idea that they can merit Olam haba through their own mitzvot–or through studying Torah for themselves. After all, if studying Torah is meritorious, it will be so for women as well; the Torah was not given only to men.

    However, this kind of attitude is a direct threat to the way of life that MM believes in. The more women who believe that their education is just as important as mens’–the fewer who will willingly stay at home cooking and cleaning or work at jobs that they find unfulfilling so that their men can learn all day.

    That is the real point of this argument.If a woman does feel fulfilled by sending her husband off to Kollel to acquire Torah for himself and herself–there is nothing wrong with that. However, more and more women do not feel like that, and there is no reason that they should be led to feel that they do not merit olam haba. I’m pretty sure than most of us would feel that a woman who goes to medical school to work in pediatric oncology or to study treatments for Alzheimer’s Disease sufferers qualifies for a share in Olam Haba, as does a woman who writes a modern commentary to the Torah, such as Nechama Leibowitz whom I mentioned above. However, women who follow these two examples are unlikely to share Mezonos Maven’s opinions, and unlikely to support his seemingly preferred way of life. So he defends that way of life the only way he knows: “It’s in the Gemara”.

    (All of this is moot, as I also posted before, as the Mishna is clear that ALL of Am Yisrael has a place in Olam Haba–a point evaded by Mezonos Maven)



    Regarding the Mishna in Avos, Olam Haboa can be lost G-d forbid.


    BTW, MM I don’t recall the Bible saying anyting about Devorah heneviah, or Mirriam Haneviah being hausfrau’n who simply supported their husband and children’s limud Torah. Same for Ruth. But it’s clearly known that they were considered righteous and holy women. What gives?


    cantoresq, They undoubtedly supported their husbands Limud Torah.

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