The State of Israel Formed on the Basis of Keeping the Torah
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October 26, 2022 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2132866
In the News: see https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2132652/70-yrs-ago-today-what-happened-at-the-historic-meeting-of-the-chazon-ish-and-ben-gurion.html
Ben Gurion agreed 70 years ago that in religious matters, the orthodox rabbanim will decide.October 26, 2022 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #2132877ujmParticipant
Ben Gurion was a rasha.October 26, 2022 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #2132880
So what should we say now about the state when they throwing aside the decision of the orthodox?October 27, 2022 12:15 am at 12:15 am #2132896
Ben Gurion might have been a rasha but smart as he realized that the state will not otherwise materialize.October 27, 2022 1:42 am at 1:42 am #2132899
Not at all. It’s common knowledge that ben gurion sr”y thought that the frum would die out in one generation. He conceded because he didn’t want us shattering his image of jewish solidarity. He hated Torah with a passion as much as a yid loves it.October 27, 2022 9:19 am at 9:19 am #2132953
” He hated Torah with a passion as much as a yid loves it.”
He was also a Yid.October 27, 2022 9:48 am at 9:48 am #2132958Bath TavathParticipant
@Marxist: What makes Ben Gurion a Yid? What IS a Yid? I guess way Marx was a Yid?October 27, 2022 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2133037
If someone’s mother is Jewish, he/she is a Yid. So, yes Marx was a Yid and Ben Gurion was a Yid. It’s not very complicated.October 27, 2022 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm #2132980akupermaParticipant
1. “religious matters” was defined vary narrowly to exclude any involvement by Orthodox Jews in public affairs. Remember that in the first elections, Ben Gurion’s principal opponents were parties on the left (who advocated banning yeshivos and changing the day of rest, among other things). If you are in to alternative history, consider what if Ben Gurion lost (e.g. Israel as a member of Comecon and the Warsaw Pact).
2. In part because they believed their own propaganda, it was assumed that in a generation there would be so few Orthodox Jews left that it would be no problem to wait and then get to work on closing yeshivos, conscripting all frum children, and realizing the long term zionist dream of being an “Am Hofshi” (secular state, free from the yoke of Torah). It took awhile before it dawned on them that the socialist revolution would end up in the dustbin of history.October 27, 2022 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2132984
I suggest you all watch the video where Ben Gurion discusses in Yiddish his loyalty to the Jewish People over that of the State of Israel.
I am not allowed to link things here but you can look it up I think it’s called “BEN GURION ‘s public speech in Yiddish” or something like that; there are subtitles in Hebrew.October 27, 2022 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #2132987Yserbius123Participant
Ben Gurion allowed Rabbonim to decide matters of religion for the same reason the World Zionist Organization chose Palestine over Argentine and Uganda to create their Zionist state. It’s the only way they were able to get frum people aboard and they needed more Jews to support them.October 27, 2022 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #21330661Participant
There’s a song that goes Every Yid is a Tzaddik. Counter that.October 27, 2022 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #2133098
this is the epitome of the road to hell is paved with good intentionsOctober 27, 2022 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #21331561Participant
Common the British promised to give the Jews land. You can’t defend land today without police and military power. It’s a better alternative than a European shtetl.October 27, 2022 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2133195
is it?October 27, 2022 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2133198
1, European shtetls is the way of galus mandated from Hashem.
We swore not to violate that decree
And you celebrate those who violate their oath to Hashem.
Do you feel more in common with a secular israeli soldier than a mah yofis jew?October 27, 2022 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2133205
ברוך שלא עשני נטורי קרתאOctober 27, 2022 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #2133204
the “Three Oaths” are not Halachically binding; to treat them as binding would be nullify a מצווה דאורייתא.
It is incumbent upon Jews in every generation as a positive commandment from the Torah to attempt to repossess the Land of Israel in it’s entirety and to displace all the inhabitants of the land.
The Ramban holds that this מצוה is fully applicable even when we are still in גלות and it applies for eternity לדורי דורות as long as there are Yidden on this Earth.October 27, 2022 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2133209maskildoreshParticipant
Baby squirrel , your misunderstanding and misquotation of the Rambam is almost as appalling as your ignoranceOctober 27, 2022 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #2133213lakewhutParticipant
The Goyim also swore to be peaceful to us. We’re allowed to defend ourselves. And no shtetls aren’t a mandated golus. It’s an old system where the Royals and nobles own the property and say where Jews are allowed to live. And had more people moved to EY earlier more would have survived the Churban Europe.October 28, 2022 12:03 am at 12:03 am #2133220ujmParticipant
The oaths were between us and Hashem, and between the nations and Hashem. The fact that the goyim broke theirs does not mean we can break ours as well. To compare – if your neighbor is mechallel shabbos, does that mean you can be mechallel shabbos as well?
First, The Oaths are quoted L’Halachah in numerous sources, including but not limited to: Piskei Riaz (Kesuvos 111), Responsa Rivash #110, Responsa Rashbash #2, Megilas Esther on Sefer HaMitzvos of Rambam Ramban (Maamar HaGeulah #1 regarding why all Jews outside of Bavel – the majority of Jews at the time – did not go to Eretz Yisroel at Coresh’s call), Rambam (Igeres Taimon – warning peple not to violate the Oaths or else face grave danger), Maharal (Netzach Yisroel 24) writes that even if the Goyim try to force us to take Eretz Yisroel for ourselves during Golus, we must allow ourselves to be killed rather than take violate the Oaths, as well as other places.
Second, Rabbeinu Tam writes that you DO pasken from Agadita unless it is against Halachah.
Third, the Oaths are NOT Agada. By definition, Halachah means when the Gemora tells you it is forbidden to do something, which this does. In fact, it says You may nto do this, and if you do, you will die. That makes it Halachah. Thats the definition of Halachah. (Similarly, the Oath of Naaseh V’Nishmah is also used by Chazal as Halachah, as in Shevuah chal al Sehvuah etc.)
Fourth, even if it is not Halachah, it still represents the Ratzon Hashem, meaning, negation of Halachah would merely relinquish us of any obligations in regard to making a State. But the Gemora clearly says that doing so will cause the deaths of Jews, like animals in the field. Even if that does not create any Halachic obligations, it surely tells us that the State is against the will of Hashem and that its existence causes deaths of Jews.
The Oath that G-d gave us not to rebel against the Goyim was NOT for the sake of the Goyim, but for our OWN sake, that we dont end Golus early. It says this in every single interpretation in the commentaries about the Oath. It was not for the sake of the Goyim but for us. So just because the Goyim violated their Oath and hurt us does nto mean we can violate another one and hurt ourselves more! Shevet Efraim left Egypt in violation of the Oaths. Egypt surely violated their Oath when they tortured Jews for centuries. Yet Ephraim, Chazal say, were all hunted down and killed in the desert for violating their Oath by leaving Egypt early.
The Oaths are brought down l’halachah in Rishonim and Achronim as viable and very real. This, despite the fact that the Goyim have been violating their Oath for thousands of years.
The Rambam in Igeres Taimon warns the Jews not to violate the Oaths, or else. He writes there that the Jews are suffering an evil, persecuting government that commits atrocities and wars against the Jews, and therefore the Jews should watch out not to violate the Oath by rebelling against them. It’s clear that even though the Goyim violate their Oath we cannot violate ours.
The Medrash Aichah says clearly that the Romans violated their Oath, yet the generation of Bar Kochba was punished Chazal say because they violated the Oaths.
The Maharal writes that even if the Goyim force us with torturous death to violate the Oath, we should rather submit to torturous death than violate them.
And the Gemora itself disproves the idea, since the Gemora says that the reason Chazal commanded us not to go from Bavel to Eretz Yisroel is due to the Oaths, even though Bavel violated their Oath for sure with the atrocities they committed during the Churban (The Shulchan Aruch writes that the Brachah of Vlamalshinim was enacted to praise Hashem for destroying the evil kingdom of Bavel).
The Gemora then asks on R. Zaira who says that the Oaths only include not taking Eretz Yisroel forcefully, but the Oath not to rebel against the nations is nto included. The Gemora could easily have answered that Bavel violated their Oath and therefore our Oath of rebelling against them is null. But the Gemora says no such thing.
R. Avrohom Galanti (Zechus Avos) brings a story of the people of Portugal who wanted to defend themselves against the government by making a rebellion. The government then was making forced Shmad and all sorts of persecutions. They asked the “shem hameforash” and were told not to do it because it would violate the Oaths.
And besides all this, the second Oath, nshelo yaalu b’chomah has nothing to do with the Goyim, and woud not be dependent on the Goyim’s Oath anyway. The Maharal and R. Yonason Eyebushitz write that even if the Goyim give us permission to take Eretz Yisroel we are not allowed to do it. Better we should die than take Eretz Yisroel, the Maharal says.
Anyone who learns about the Oaths is immediately confronted with the reality that they Goyim violated theirs but we still cannot violate ours.October 28, 2022 12:27 am at 12:27 am #2133224
Goyim never swore to be peaceful. They swore to not ? subjugate us “too much”(yoser midai). The rishonim say that the shavuos on us are because of kefirah in bias hamoshiach, which means that they have absolutely no connection to what the goyim swore to.
The ramban holds that there is a mitzvah on individuals to live there. He does not ever say that there is a mitzvah to fight for eretz yisroel bzman hagalus. He brings the shevuos in his maamar al hageulah, in fact.
Even if they aren’t halacha(which they are), they represent an ideal and a perception of galus that chazal are teaching us about. To say that we’re better off in a situation chazal say would “allow our flesh to be hunted like animals” is borderline apikorsus.October 28, 2022 9:29 am at 9:29 am #2133232
@lakewhut “And had more people moved to EY earlier more would have survived the Churban Europe.”
Instead they would have been shected on the street on the streetsin Chevron , Jerusalem and HifaOctober 28, 2022 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2133310
Common, exactlyOctober 28, 2022 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #2133327
“That we are commanded to take possession of the Land which the Almighty, Blessed Be He, gave to our forefathers, to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Yaakov; and not to abandon it to other nations, or to leave it desolate, as He said to them, “You shall dispossess the inhabitants of the Land and dwell in it, for I have given the Land to you to possess it,” and he said, further, “To Inherit the Land which I swore to your forefathers (to give them)”; behold, we are commanded with the conquest of the land in every generation.”
Chazal made many other such emphatic statements regarding this positive commandment that we are commanded to possess the Land and settle it. It is therefore an eternal positive command, obligating every single individual even during the time of Exile as is known from the Talmud in many places.October 28, 2022 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2133337lakewhutParticipant
@lakewhut “And had more people moved to EY earlier more would have survived the Churban Europe.”
Instead they would have been shected on the street on the streetsin Chevron , Jerusalem and Hifa
Eretz Yisroel is acquired with suffering. Its not close to going through the USSR and Nazi Germany.October 28, 2022 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2133338
—> Chutz Laaretz has a din of Tumah. Eretz Yisrael is din Kodosh.
—> Hashem is only our God if we live in Eretz Yisrael – His land that He gave us.
—> There is a Mitzvah DeOraisah of Yishuv Baaretz, living in Eretz Yisrael. You must settle all of the land and openly take/stake your claim so that the goyim and others cannot take it from you to use for their own benefit. Goyim may not benefit from the land that Hashem gave to Am Yisrael without the express permission from the Yidden.
—> You must live there and learn Torah there and raise your children there breathing the holy air of the land with the special protection of Hashem.
—> Moshe Rabbeinu – the greatest person who has ever lived, fervently wanted to have the merit to step foot in the Holy Land, and he davened & begged Hashem over and over again to allow him to enter, but Hashem did not let. And here we are today deliberately choosing to stay in Chutz La’aretz (many of us) because of some self righteous ‘chareidi’ anti-zionist avodah zarah and not partaking in this great mitzvah which our grandparents and great-grandparents fervently dreamt about and begged hashem for…. a big insult to Hashem and to his torah.
—> There is no Torah like the Torah of Eretz Yisroel.
—> There is no Simcha like the Simcha of dwelling in Eretz Yisroel.
באו ורשו את הארץOctober 28, 2022 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #2133339yehudis21Participant
“European shtetls is the way of galus mandated from Hashem.”
Omg Avira, I pretty much only log onto to this site to enjoy the insanity of some of the comments, and you do NOT disappoint when it comes to that! So thank you!October 28, 2022 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #2133354Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
interesting topic connecting Gemora in Ketubot with the next one – Nedarim :_
what is the date on the oath shtar? If it was on in Bavel, then we had semi-state and then a state – with the permission of Persians. After that, Jews defended their state from Greeks and others during BM2. Similarly, Jews went to EY with permission of Brits and then approval of UN – literally, all goyim, something that most other states do not have. This seems like we are following the conditions of the shevua. the fact that some other goyim, who were not in charge in EY at a time, disagreed does not seem to matter. Of course, we should keep them in mind and not aggravate unnecessary (such as picking on Muslims on Har Habayit) …
Also, note that things are not better in galus/aka shtetl. Jews promised not to rebel against the governments and then participated in all kind of revolutions in Europe… And these were not some mythical “reform” Jews for whom we are not responsible. At some point, Slobodka had to send new students to Telshe yeshiva because all the current students joined socialists.October 28, 2022 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2133394
“And had more people moved to EY earlier more would have survived the Churban Europe.”
This is 100% correct. Obviously, the Chevron massacre was horrible but it wasn’t the Holocaust.October 29, 2022 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #2133485Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Whoever compares Chevron with suffering under Nazis and Soviets has no credibility. I read, in an unreliable source, that after the war the Beltzer Rebbe didn’t move to Yerushalaim because he felt he is not deserving due to advising yidden to stay in Europe.
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