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@ SJ
You wrote: “I’m not sure what your cryptic criticism is about my use of the terms “masis” and “madiach”. Please explain what I got wrong.”
1) You called YB a masis u’ madiach.
2) I asked you what grounds you have ffor calling him a mu”m
3) You responded: because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.
This proposition of yours is problematic on both Halachic and logical grounds
Halachic: Your proposition has no basis in Halacha. Do you have any Posek who applies the status of mu”m the way that you did? Do you have proofs from Chazal and Rishonim to apply the status of mu”m in a way that you did?
2nd Logical: According to to your reasoning if terrorists or neo nazis would publicly attack Zionism then someone who speaks against such terrorists or neo nazis would be a mu”m because they are actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy. This is absurd.
1. Halachik: I wasn’t making a “halachik” statement, as I am not instigating anyone go out and kill mu”m. So, too you rarely find ANY psak about this in our gulis because we generally don’t paskin dinei nefushos.
2. Logic: My accusation is dependent on INTENT of the criticism.
If the goal of attacking Nazis yimach shemum is to drive people away from Torah teachings, that would be mu”m. So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to reject the Torah NK is teaching and/or push them towards the false religion called “Zionism”, that would also be mu”m.somejew – So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to [reject the Torah NK is teaching] and/or {push them towards the false religion called “Zionism”,} that would also be mu”m.
You are mixing two completely different things into one sentence. Pushing Jews towards false religions (or atheism/kefirah) IS the dictionary definition of “meisis”. Wanting that Jews should reject the “Torah” NK is teaching (when that “Torah” includes collaborating with Iran and Hamas and runs against the Torah of 100% of the Gedolei Hador, including all mainstream Satmar and friends) is NOT “meisis”. The key is what does Hashem want, not what do you want.
Even in a case where there are two fully legitimate Torah shittos, and someone tries to convince people to follow one as opposed to the other, that would not be מסית ומדיח by any stretch.
lol.
99.99% of orthodox jews reject NK ‘s dangerous folly …
according to somejews crooked reasoning , 99.99% of orthodox jews are mu’m ….
if someone wants to know the definition of lunacy , he should read somejew’s posts ….
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.@yaakov-yosef-a
I’m not clear what the distinction you are making is between pushing someone away from Torah and pushing someone towards another religion. they seem to be two ways of phrasing the same thing.
Nothing I am saying has anything to do with NK per se, rather I am only speaking about Torah that the masis would himself agree is Torah. (The conversation about a shogeg mesis is well beyond CR…).
To say it again: if the INTENT of criticising NK is NOT because of their questionable tactics but rather leveraging their questionable tactics to get Jews to reject normative Torah and/or adopt the false moshiach of Zionism, that would be the “masis i’madiach” I was calling into question.somejew – “pushing someone away from Torah” is not the same as what you wrote: “So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to reject the Torah NK is teaching”. The “Torah” of NK is rejected by 99.99% of Orthodox Jewry. Stop playing bait and switch word games.
if somejew’s INTENT is to get jews to reject normative judaism as accepted by the gdolei yisrael ,
and/or adopt the false kana’ut of NK , does that turn somejew into a meisit umadiach ??at least when we use somejew’s reasoning ….
food for thought ….
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