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@ SJ
You wrote: “I’m not sure what your cryptic criticism is about my use of the terms “masis” and “madiach”. Please explain what I got wrong.”
1) You called YB a masis u’ madiach.
2) I asked you what grounds you have ffor calling him a mu”m
3) You responded: because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.
This proposition of yours is problematic on both Halachic and logical grounds
Halachic: Your proposition has no basis in Halacha. Do you have any Posek who applies the status of mu”m the way that you did? Do you have proofs from Chazal and Rishonim to apply the status of mu”m in a way that you did?
2nd Logical: According to to your reasoning if terrorists or neo nazis would publicly attack Zionism then someone who speaks against such terrorists or neo nazis would be a mu”m because they are actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy. This is absurd.
1. Halachik: I wasn’t making a “halachik” statement, as I am not instigating anyone go out and kill mu”m. So, too you rarely find ANY psak about this in our gulis because we generally don’t paskin dinei nefushos.
2. Logic: My accusation is dependent on INTENT of the criticism.
If the goal of attacking Nazis yimach shemum is to drive people away from Torah teachings, that would be mu”m. So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to reject the Torah NK is teaching and/or push them towards the false religion called “Zionism”, that would also be mu”m.somejew – So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to [reject the Torah NK is teaching] and/or {push them towards the false religion called “Zionism”,} that would also be mu”m.
You are mixing two completely different things into one sentence. Pushing Jews towards false religions (or atheism/kefirah) IS the dictionary definition of “meisis”. Wanting that Jews should reject the “Torah” NK is teaching (when that “Torah” includes collaborating with Iran and Hamas and runs against the Torah of 100% of the Gedolei Hador, including all mainstream Satmar and friends) is NOT “meisis”. The key is what does Hashem want, not what do you want.
Even in a case where there are two fully legitimate Torah shittos, and someone tries to convince people to follow one as opposed to the other, that would not be מסית ומדיח by any stretch.
lol.
99.99% of orthodox jews reject NK ‘s dangerous folly …
according to somejews crooked reasoning , 99.99% of orthodox jews are mu’m ….
if someone wants to know the definition of lunacy , he should read somejew’s posts ….
.
.@yaakov-yosef-a
I’m not clear what the distinction you are making is between pushing someone away from Torah and pushing someone towards another religion. they seem to be two ways of phrasing the same thing.
Nothing I am saying has anything to do with NK per se, rather I am only speaking about Torah that the masis would himself agree is Torah. (The conversation about a shogeg mesis is well beyond CR…).
To say it again: if the INTENT of criticising NK is NOT because of their questionable tactics but rather leveraging their questionable tactics to get Jews to reject normative Torah and/or adopt the false moshiach of Zionism, that would be the “masis i’madiach” I was calling into question.somejew – “pushing someone away from Torah” is not the same as what you wrote: “So too if someone is critical of NK because they want jews to reject the Torah NK is teaching”. The “Torah” of NK is rejected by 99.99% of Orthodox Jewry. Stop playing bait and switch word games.
if somejew’s INTENT is to get jews to reject normative judaism as accepted by the gdolei yisrael ,
and/or adopt the false kana’ut of NK , does that turn somejew into a meisit umadiach ??at least when we use somejew’s reasoning ….
food for thought ….
.
.@yaakov-yosef-a
no games. i never heard anything but Torah from the couple of interviews I’ve listened to with NK. So too their website.
Again, I’m not ignoring their controversial tactics, which many rabunim have explicitly called out, rather I am focusing on the Torah message that NK is delivering, which seems to be fully in line with mainstream Torah Judaism.If one is critical of their tactic, understood. But if someone is leveraging the NK tactics to criticise Torah Judaism, that is getting close to masis imadiach.
This article is from YWN (Yeshiva World News) World Headquarters in NYC:
Israel’s Interior Minister Moshe Arbel on Monday permanently revoked
the entry visa of Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss — the twisted American spokesman
for the fringe Neturei Karta movement — after Weiss was photographed
meeting Iran’s foreign minister in Brazil and praising Tehran.Arbel, invoking rarely used emergency powers under the Law of Return,
barred Weiss from ever setting foot in Israel, declaring he
“will not allow anyone who acts against the State of Israel
and identifies with its enemies to enter it.”Weiss, 69, traveled this week to São Paulo to participate in events
around the BRICS summit. According to Iranian state media,
he held talks with Iranian Foreign Minister Seyed Abbas Araghchi,
offered him flowers, and signed a memorial book for
“martyrs of Zionist attacks on Iran.”
Images posted online showed Weiss denouncing Israel
to Araghchi’s face — a move Arbel called crossing “a red line.”Weiss has long relished the role of provocateur, championing
Iran and other sworn enemies of the Jewish state.In 2006, he was filmed in Tehran at a government-sponsored
Holocaust denial conference, and over the years has repeatedly
praised Hezbollah, Hamas, and Iranian leadership while demonizing Israel.A resident of Monsey, New York, Weiss is
the most visible face of Neturei Karta.
His activities have left him ostracized by virtually every
mainstream Orthodox Jewish body in the world.Israeli officials said Monday that Tehran was exploiting
high-profile meetings with Jewish dissidents like Weiss
to push propaganda delegitimizing Israel’s right to defend itself.“The message is clear,” Arbel said.
“There will be zero tolerance for Jewish collaborators
who embrace those who seek Israel’s destruction.”SOURCE: article titled: “LONG OVERDUE: Israel Bans Neturei Karta’s
Yisroel Dovid Weiss for Cozying Up to Iran’s Foreign Minister”
2025 July 7, YWN (Yeshiva World News) World Headquarters in NYC
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2422219/long-overdue-israel-bans-neturei-kartas-yisroel-dovid-weiss-for-cozying-up-to-irans-foreign-minister.htmlthe torah from the NK is twisted and one sided
totally ignoring the opinions of the great rabbanim
and totally ignoring the clear pikuah nefesh danger hanging over masses of our brothers and sisters
that’s not called torah
that’s twisted torah used as propaganda
that’s dangerous propaganda
recognized as such by 99 % of orthodox jews
propaganda dripping with blood
blood from our own brothers and sisters
.1. Propaganda can be used for wicked things
2. People should follow Rabbanim who are living in their lifetime who can guide them here and now.
3. Weiss is a shill.Joseph Goebbels,
You should be tuned over to Germany for prosecution as an anti-Semitic Nazi, just like your close relative was. You’re not even Jewish.
UJM said:
“No Jew ever died because some NK guys
went to a Palestinian demonstration.There’s absolutely nothing pekuach nefesh dangers that they do.”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:Wrong! Wrong! WRONG! False! False! FALSE!
The Neturei Karta and their wicked rodaif activities
grant the unearned appearance of legitimacy
to genocidal Muslim terrorists whose long-term goal
is to *** KILL *** ALL *** JEWS ****.If helping people who want to *** KILL ALL JEWS ***
is not a threat against Pikuach Nefesh, then what is?Which part of *** KILL ALL JEWS *** did you not understand?
But I forget — the person who I am trying to reason with,
Mr. UJM, has repeatedly shown himself to be
a close-minded fanatic, and a rodaif and a mosair.hello how are you.
nice to hear from you for once
normally you conveniently disappear and do not answer
but I will not do the same
now re your post
do you know that official weapons embargoes against the medina
means more sakana for the yehudim on the frontline chvsh
and more sakana for the yehudim at home
and means extra hizuk for their enemies to kill them chvsh
do you know that policymakers in the US and in other countries from where those weapons are sourced
quote the anti zionist fools/ba’alei ga’ava who are on public record against the medina
as justification for denying this materiel support
thus endangering both the yehudim on the front and the yehudim at home
what I wrote here is only one part
so yes
their crooked propaganda is dripping with blood
its not hyperbole
its reality
.
.Any details omnn this story – Was Rav Lau one of those Mafdal Zionists who was protesting Chilul Shabbos in Israel and wanted to improve observance of Israeli population? what was exactly protested, and what was in the protest that lead to imprisonment?
Freudian slip – r Blau, not r Lau, chief rabbi and a talmid of r Auerbach.
ujm – In truth, Shabbos itself is now in prison.
Shabbos in prison, not Iran in prison. Stop dragging the name of Rav Amram זצ״ל through the mud of the phony NK2025.
ujm – When HaRav Amram Blau was imprisoned in 1953 for protesting Chillul Shabbos, the Chazon Ish came to visit him…
There is a crucial point that is being ignored here, and which makes this whole 117 post debate completely irrelevant. Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל was a big kanoi, but his shittah was not in sync with Satmar. NK began within the Yerushalmi branch of Agudah. They were NOT opposed to settling the Land etc., they were ONLY focused on issues of Shabbos, Tzniyus, and avoiding any connection with the Reshaim = Secular Zionists. They DID NOT hold of the שלש שבועות shittah, so much so that they were OK with being part of Agudah… This puts Rav Amram Blau in the same Hashkafic category as Rav Akiva Shlesinger, who was IN FAVOR of mass immigration, building settlements, etc., but MAKING SURE TO DO IT ALL על טהרת הקודש. Rav Amram himself was very close with R’ Velvel Brisker whose own shittah was very similar. Do you notice that ALL OF THE STORIES ABOUT RAV AMRAM BLAU ARE ABOUT SHABBOS PROTESTS or tzniyus or similar issues. The opposition to the State was because of all the Rishus the State did, and he of course held that voting or participation in any way was considered associating with Reshaim, NOT NECESSARILY because of the ‘Shevuos’. This was so much so, that a later leader of the post-R’ Amram NK said openly that “WE NEVER FORGAVE HIM FOR MIXING OTHER ISSUES INTO THE KANAUS” = for NOT emphasizing the Satmar shittah (that he didn’t really hold of, at least for the first few decades of his activity.)
Fast forward – The ‘Modern’ NK post 1960 has been completely taken oven by the Satmar ideology in THEORY, WITHOUT the limits the Divrei Yoel imposed IN PRACTICE = not demonstrating with Goyim, etc. You will NEVER see them protesting Chilul Shabbos, pritzus, or ANYTHING OTHER THAN the EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, not any particular mehalech the State should or shouldn’t do. (מה שאין כן real Satmar do protest those issues, and even their demonstrations in Manhattan etc. are ISSUE oriented, e.g. for the draft gezeros etc.) The PLO or the Iranians (and some of the NK themselves…) don’t care about chilul Shabbos. This doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל, and not much to do with Satmar either for that matter. Certainly zero shaychus whatsoever with the Steipler or the Chazon Ish.
Minority Leader Senator Shumer clearly mentioned the anti zionists in his senate speech defending arms embargoes against Israel .
Dripping with blood.
yes.
.
.sorry
senator shumer was the senate majority leader at the time .
.
.” NK began within the Yerushalmi branch of Agudah. They were NOT opposed to settling the Land etc., they were ONLY focused on issues of Shabbos, Tzniyus, and avoiding any connection with the Reshaim = Secular Zionists. They DID NOT hold of the שלש שבועות shittah, so much so that they were OK with being part of Agudah… This puts Rav Amram Blau in the same Hashkafic category as Rav Akiva Shlesinger, who was IN FAVOR of mass immigration, building settlements, etc., but MAKING SURE TO DO IT ALL על טהרת הקודש. Rav Amram himself was very close with R’ Velvel Brisker whose own shittah was very similar. Do you notice that ALL OF THE STORIES ABOUT RAV AMRAM BLAU ARE ABOUT SHABBOS PROTESTS or tzniyus or similar issues.”
Protesting over violations of Halacha is something I disagree with strictly because I view it as a waste of time. You’re not going to convince Chilonim – especially adamant secularists – to keep Shabbos or anything else by protests, or any other measures for that matter. But at least it’s a cause most Orthodox Jews can get behind.
hope ujm is not attempting to drag the gra into the NK dirt now ….
.
.ZSK – The point was that there is no connection between the present day NK and the different organization by the same name led decades ago by Rav Amram Blau. Not the ideology, not the causes being protested, not the methods used. Nothing.
Even the protests back then were in a different context altogether. Most of the people being protested against were not תינוקות שנשבו, to put it mildly, and fully understood what was going on. That is no longer true today. Many of those protests were against Chilul Shabbos and breaches of tzniyus in and around Chareidi areas of Yerushalayim, by people with an agenda to davka do those things there, not often the case today.
the senate majority leader is on record in his senate speech defending withholding certain arms from israel
in it he quotes the anti zionists who protest against israel
remember the speech
@ UJM
“Everyone knows the Neteurei Karta are Litvaks and from the Talmidei HaGRA.”
To write that the current NK freaks have any connection to the talmidei HaGrA is an obscene distortion. It is a brazen chutzpa for you to write such a thing.
ujm – “Everyone knows the Neteurei Karta are Litvaks and from the Talmidei HaGRA.”
They WERE, they aren’t now. Today’s NK are not Litvaks, and not even Yerushalmim. They are mixed nuts who were kicked out of their communities for various reasons… and take out their bitterness and psychosis on Klal Yisroel. Just stop this silly game and call it a day.
@YYA – I got the point and don’t disagree. The organizations get confused all the time.
I was merely pointing out that NK would have more backing from larger swaths of the Orthodox Jewish community if they completely changed direction and tune, focusing on those issues mentioned rather than denouncing the State, especially together with people who would absolutely murder Jews if they could get away with it.
YWN World Headquarters in NYC said:
You already know that Neturei Karta is comprised of sick individuals
who openly support and advocate for the GENOCIDE of their
Jewish brothers and sister – and are too dumb to realize they would be next.You also already know that in their lust for the spilling of Jewish blood,
they willingly make themselves token Jews at pro-Hamas baby killer rallies
–– including being Mechalel Shabbos B’farhesya
on numerous occasions to participate in them.But did you know that they are also open Kofrim against the Torah?
Just watch and listen to what this scramble-brained Neturei Karta
member at a demonstration in London tells a pro-Palestinian
interviewer who asks what he would tell people
who say that Israel is a land promised to the Jews by God.“This is a total lie,” he says.
“There is no promised land at all.”No promised land? Here’s a short collection of Pesukim
where it says that Israel is, in fact, a promised land –
and why it’s called “Eretz Yisroel” in the first place:רְאֵ֛ה נָתַ֥תִּי לִפְנֵיכֶ֖ם אֶת־הָאָ֑רֶץ בֹּ֚אוּ וּרְשׁ֣וּ אֶת־הָאָ֔רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֣ר נִשְׁבַּ֣ע יְ֠הֹוָ֠ה לַֽאֲבֹ֨תֵיכֶ֜ם לְאַבְרָהָ֨ם לְיִצְחָ֤ק וּלְיַֽעֲקֹב֙ לָתֵ֣ת לָהֶ֔ם וּלְזַרְעָ֖ם אַחֲרֵיהֶֽם
כי את כל-הארץ אשר אתה רואה לך אתננה ולזרעך עד- עולם” [בראשית י”ג,י”ד-ט”ז]וביום ההוא כרת ה’ את אברם ברית לאמור: לזרעך נתתי את- הארץ הזאת מנהר מצרים ועד הנהר הגדול נהר-פרת…” [שם ט”ו ,י”ח-כ”א]
כי אב המון גויים נתתיך..והקימותי את- בריתי ביני ובינך ובין זרעך אחריך לדורותם לברית עולם להיות לך לאלוקים ולזרעך אחריך:ונתתי לך ולזרעך אחריך את ארץ מגוריך את-כל—ארץ כנען לאחוזת עולם והייתי להם לאלוקים”
[שם “ז,א-ט]ואת הארץ אשר נתתי לאברהם וליצחק לך אתננה ולזרעך אחריך את- הארץ
Their repudiation of the Torah’s open statements raises an obvious question:
They call themselves Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City).
Which city exactly are they guardians of?
If Israel is not the Promised Land, then presumably it’s not Yerushalayim.
What then could it be? Is it Tehran?Whether they’re Zionists or not, Jews around the world
agree that Eretz Yisroel is the Promised Land.But for those masquerading as Jews while meeting with terrorists
around the world and expressing their appreciation for them,
it is anything but that.Shocking, yes, but is it surprising? Not really.
As has been noted in previous YWN articles,
no matter how much you despise these Neturei Karta creeps,
you don’t despise them enough.SOURCE: article titled: “WATCH: Neturei Karta Not Only Hate Jews,
They Are Now Also Open Apikorsim” 2024 June 4
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/2288401/watch-neturei-karta-not-only-hate-jews-they-are-now-also-open-apikorsim.html@yaakov-yosef-a
It’s a shame you are so ready to speak such luchon hureh on NK without having ever spoken to anyone from NK to hear their side.
Look past the propaganda and rumors and you will see a group of frim yidden who don’t do aveiras in public. That’s the baseline of demanding you hear their side before falling for the slander of YY Jacobson.you should stop your false naivete
the fact is that the senate majority leader is one of the top four elected officials in the most powerful country in the world
his words are taken VERY SERIOUSLY all over the world
including the biden administration who did withhold weapons .
and including many European countries who imposed embargoes
so – yes there is blood dripping from their hands
this is plain reality – not hyperbole at all
.
.… falling for slander by YY Jacobson …. [somejew to YYA]
—
what is that all about ?
.
.somefool,
“Look past the propaganda and rumors and you will see a group of frim yidden who don’t do aveiras in public”.
“Frim” is a galach.
What do you call NK’s participation in the 2006 Holocaust Denial Conference in Tehran and the 2011 “Anti Terrorism” Conference held there on Shabbos if not aveiras done in public?
ZSK – I was merely pointing out that NK would have more backing from larger swaths of the Orthodox Jewish community if they completely changed direction and tune, focusing on those issues mentioned rather than denouncing the State, especially together with people who would absolutely murder Jews if they could get away with it.
I think we agree completely on the issues in this thread, but I didn’t have a הוה אמינא of trying to “fix” the current NK, or even the commenters who insist on defending them.
@YYA – We do.
I was trying to be melamed zechus.
ujm : I’m beginning to see you may mean well (in making factually incorrect statements) but you are politically uneducated. Schumer played absolutely no role in depriving Israel from American arms. This is an unassailable fact.
—lol .
the fact is that the Senate Majority Leader is one of the top four elected officials in the most powerful country in the world
his words are taken VERY SERIOUSLY all over the world
including the biden administration who did withhold weapons .
and including many European countries who imposed embargoes
—–mr ujm -which of these lines are incorrect ?
and why ?
please educate us , the ‘politically uneducated’ ….
Does the Biden Administration reckon with the publicly stated opinion of the Senate Majority Leader , or not ?
.
.ujm – I don’t think Nadler knows the difference between Satmar and NK. You barely do…
The fact is that Senate Majority Leader Shumer did quote the religious anti zionists who appear in the media as justification for his speech advocating certain arms deliveries.
Not Nadler .
Shumer .
.
.“Neteurei Karta today still has their Shuls in Meah Shearim, Batei Ungarin, Bnei Brak, etc still davening Nusach Ashkenaz, as has been their custom since the Perushim. Yes, they most certainly have everything to do coming from the Talmidei HaGRA”
The people with Shuls in MS, BU, BB, etc are not the freaks demonstrating in NY and traveling to Iran. One can be an ardent anti-zionist without supporting antisemitic murderers. Your association of today’s NK freaks with the talmedei HaGRA is a sick, twisted afront to kavod HaTorah.
@non-political
you’ll find more palestinian flags in those EY neighborhoods than zionist flags.The Satmar Rebbe pushed his students in America to loudly protest, claiming the American Jews are the ones whose voice matters vis-a-vis public influence, which would certainly seem to have been an influence on NK leaders like Rav Beck ztz”l who was a talmid of BOTH Rav Blau tzt”l and the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l.
Beyond that, there are not pro-palestinian protests in the Zionist state that Jewish residents could join even if they wanted to.
Regardless, nobody – NK or otherwise – is supporting murdering of Jews when they join the protests against the zionist state. If NK wanted Jews dead, they would tell them to join the IDF death cult.
ujm – So you are saying that until it can be proven that NK is directly responsible for Yidden actually getting killed ר״ל it’s OK to say in public the things they say? What about ספק נפשות?
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