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clear from the steiplers letter that he is referring to edah hacharedit , and
not to participants in holocaust denying conferences , nor to participants in PLO demonstrations in the 1970’s
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.@ SR
“And that is how UJM and HaKatan win debates”Which debates do you think they won? Who conceded?
@ SJ
” your baseless claims against a group of apparently kosher yidden is not only dishonest, but motzi shem ra. It is possibly also masis imadiach”YB has been doing an excellent job of both (1) eloquently presenting the mainstream chareidi position on the issues under discussion and (2) laying bare your mistakes. At the same time, nowhere has he promoted Zionism. So, how exactly is he, even l’daatcha a masis u’madiach?
ujm- Yaakov: You can read for yourself what the Steipler Gaon said in high praise of the Neteurei Karta, as written in קריינא דאיגרתא, and directly quoted above in the Opening Post of this thread.
I read it, as did Yankel Berel and everyone else…
The first thing I wrote on this thread seems to have slipped under your radar, so I will repeat it here:
There is a teshuva in Teshuvos HaRashba that says that the butcher store located at a certain address in Barcelona is certainly Kosher. If you happen to be in Barcelona, you know where you can go to pick up Kosher meat with the Hechsher of no less than the Rashba himself…
Now, try and think about the connection between the letter of the Rashba and the letter of the Steipler… And why it is ridiculous to take letters of Gedolim from generations ago and cut-paste to different people in different times doing different things, even if they happen to go by the same name.
ujm – Let me ask you a question. What do the contemporary ממשיכים of the Steipler, i.e. Reb Chaim zt”l and his family, and the living Takmidim of the Steipler and Reb Chaim, have to say about the contemporary Neturei Karta? You know the answer, you are just playing games with cutting and pasting old letters out of context. There are many people alive who knew the Steipler and know exactly what he held. Go ask them…
Yaakov Yosef A said this to UJM:
“What do the contemporary ממשיכים of the Steipler,
i.e. Reb Chaim zt”l and his family, and the living Talmidim
of the Steipler and Reb Chaim, have to say about the
contemporary Neturei Karta?You know the answer, you are just playing games
with cutting and pasting old letters out of context.There are many people alive who knew the Steipler
and know exactly what he held. Go ask them…”__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:This illustrates why UJM has been repeatedly accused
of being a BIG TROLL, right here in the YWN Coffee Room.@yakov yosef
bet you that ujm will not answer ….
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.ujm – I could ask you for the date of the letter you repeatedly quote, which for some reason is missing… But it isn’t necessary to even go there. Just go ask the living talmidim of the Steipler what he held about demonstrating with the PLO… For that matter, go ask the living talmidim of the Divrei Yoel what HE held about demonstrating with Palestinians… What is the point of your games?
I’m still waiting to hear from SJ why, according to him, YB is a massis u’medeich.
@non-political
you ask me why MIGHT @yankel-berel’s motzei shem ro on NK also be masis imadiach?because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.
somejew said – because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.
Satmar itself begs to differ with you. They don’t demonstrate with Arabs, and sharply criticized some of the antics of the bogus Neo-NK. So why do you insist on being more Satmar than Satmar? Think about it for a second. If nothing else was wrong with NK, other than thinking that ONLY they are real מאמינים, and all of Klal Yisroel are kofrim/mesisim ח״ו, then that alone would be the biggest proof that THEY THEMSELVES are kofrim, because they cut themselves off from the entire ציבור and don’t believe in any living Torah authority or Mesorah. Letters from 70 years ago won’t help here.
I have same question about the letter. It seems that the letter is from 1950s when the issue of elections was a new one. It is definitely pre-1977, because then Steipler would be mentioning a change in the government to a more positive towards religion.
I wasn’t referring to NK’s specific tactics, rather their message that is fully in line with mainstream Torah’s rejection of zionism and its kefira.
I never claimed that NK can claim to be the exclusive “maminim” (nor do they, afaik).
I don’t understand your accusation that they have “cut themselves off” from anyone. Beyond that, your words are inherently foolish, as a formal “kofer” is by definition not part of klal yisroel.
Beyond that, NK in the USA has recognized gadolim, afaik. They had the Kashu Rav ztz”l as well as Rav Moshe Ber Beck ztz”l who both recently passed away and were both active public supporters of the modern NK activities. I don’t know who, if anyone, has filled in the recent gap of losing these great men, so you would need to ask someone over there. Regardless, they certainly don’t claim that THEY don’t have Torah, so I don’t understand even the claim of kofer even if NK did stand completely alone.
ujm – Cut the nonsense. Stop playing stupid. Go ask any living talmid of the Steipler you can find what he held about the post-R’ Amram Blau NK, which answered and answers to zero Daas Torah whatsoever. By 1970 R’ Amram זצ״ל was not in control of NK. This letter is as relevant to the contemporary NK as the Teshuvas HaRashba is to the Kashrus of any contemporary butcher store.
Why is ujm repeating the same canard again and again , when it is obvious from the whole context of the letter that the steipler was referring to the hevrei ha ‘eda hacharedit ???
and not at all to any neturei karta
not from then , and not from now ???
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.if steipler was referring to them , how does that figure into the question of voting which is the sole and clear subject of the letter ???
it as clear as day that his intent was the chevrei haeda and
NOT the neturei karta as they are known to us , historical or contemporary
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.@ SJ
You wrote: “because NK is a/the public vocal face of tochocheh against the heresy of zionism that is targeting the sheomrei torah umitzvos communities. So, actively undermining the messengers that are trying remove heresy MIGHT be as guilty as trying to promote the heresy amongst yidden, hence masis imadiach.”
1) There are other public, vocal faces of tochocheh against zionism. For example, Both Satmar factions in the U.S and the Eidah Hareidis. None of the above feels the need to be m’chanif terrorists and dictators in the way N”K is doing.
2) Your svara for who qualifies for masis u’mediach is very interesting. I would like to explore it further. Here is a hypothetical case. Lets say a thief, rapist, or murderer publicly, and vocally spoke out against zionism. Would someone who criticizes him for his crimes be a masis u’mediach according to you?
The one thing I can say about this svara is that it is consistent. Sometimes a svara can be logical and reasonable yet still be wrong halachically. This svara of yours does not suffer from such a problem.
ujm – Names please.
this is sheker vechazav
.it’s not even debatable. the distance – by talmidei chachumim – between the “charedim” of the chazon ish ztzt”l and the “kanoyim” of rav amram bloy ztzt”l is exceptionally minor.
This carries on today, as the students of Rav Chaim ztz”l’s biggest complaint towards todays kanoyim like neturie karta is that they are lost parliament votes (of those who live in within zionist borders).
ujm – I don’t know who they are. What was the extent of their kesher with the Steipler? What rabbinical/rosh yeshiva position do they hold today? What exactly, in their words, did they hear from the Steipler? All other sources I am aware of WRT the shittos of the Steipler, his brother-in-law the Chazon Ish, and the entire Chazon Ish orbit (and there are MANY sources available both living and in print), DO NOT agree with you. Part of your problem is that you automatically take any statement of anti-Zionism in theory, that any Gadol ever said, and extrapolate it ad absurdum until it becomes NK. That is what happens when you don’t follow a living Mesorah, and that is how the NK themselves deteriorated to the sorry state they are in.
Why is ujm repeating the same canard again and again , when it is obvious from the whole context of the letter that the steipler was referring to the hevrei ha ‘eda hacharedit ???
and not at all to any neturei karta
not from then , and not from now ???
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.UJM – Are Reb Moshe Cohen and Reb Yitzchok Katz affiliated with/related to Rav Yitzchok Ehrentreu?
“I live in Gateshead.. Close to Harav Avrohom Gurwicz שליט״א and Harav Yitzchok Ehrentreu שליט״א.”
– UJM, August 4, 2025 11:10 am.
When did the Steipler Gaon approve of the Neturei Karta
marching with Muslim-terrorist-sympathizers, on Shabbos?When did the Steipler Gaon approve of the Neturei Karta
meeting with the genocidal Prime Minister of Iran?When did the Steipler Gaon approve of the Neturei Karta
attending the Iran-sponsored Holocaust Denial Conference?I asked these question around two weeks ago.
So far, nobody has answered these questions.In what year did the Steipler Gaon approve of the Neturei Karta?
bet that ujm is going to ignore the substance of my previous post re
the letter of the staipler not referring to NK but rather to the eidah
how else is ujm going to explain the letter ?
he is talking about voting – why do the NK , as opposed to the hevrei ha edah , come in there ?
am waiting for ujm’s explanation ….
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.no one should even attempt in anyway to even begin this journey…..sad…my fellow Yidden have become fools……you don’t talk about the Gadol Adore
ujm – Why don’t YOU here and now share with us which alleged sources YOU are aware of, as you claim, WRT the shittos of the Steipler and the Chazon Ish regarding the Neteurei Karta and HaRav Amrom Blau ztvkl.
Because we aren’t talking about the NK of Rav Amram Blau זצ״ל. You keep on going back to the same bait and switch. Anything positive the Steipler זצ״ל said about the NK goes back to that tekufah. No connection whatsoever to the current incarnation of NK. The Chazon Ish and the Steipler were not NK, to put it mildly, even then, although they held of the personal tzidkus of R’ Amram. Seeing as the overwhelming majority of Gedolei Yisroel, maybe all of them, certainly those who follow the Shittah of the Chazon Ish, COMPLETELY reject the antics of today’s NK, the burden of proof is on you, not on me, Yankel Berel, or anyone else.
the steipler devoted every ounce of his energy and considerable intellect to one thing : to the master and discover the intricacies of the torah and to write his sefarim
all the rest – including the public statements re public policy were nothing more than an unwelcome and forced distraction
he had zero interest in differentiating between the various political positions of various groups nor about their accurate descriptions
besides , many in those times called the edah people with the title of ‘neturei karta’ …
any OBJECTIVE and UNBIASED reader of his letter , when considering the context ,
will see his objective in this letter
what was the message the steipler was conveying ?
that those who prohibit voting are chashuv , chaviv and should not change their postion.
that’s it .
vetu lo midi ….
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.it seems from ujm’s comments that he does not want to classify as an UNBIASED observer …..
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.whoever brought up the letter, should pony up the date. Otherwise, it is posul like a get without a date.
AAQ – whoever brought up the letter, should pony up the date. Otherwise, it is posul like a get without a date.
Thank you, yasher koach. You hit the nail on the head and got me to wholeheartedly agree with you.
ujm – How, exactly, is today’s NK any more radical than Rav Blau’s NK that (to take one of numerous examples) protested together with Yasser Arafat’s PLO against Israel in front of the UN? That occurred during the lifetimes of both Rav Blau and the Steipler Gaon.
You are aware that R’ Amram Blau זצ״ל left Yerushalayim and the leadership of the NK when he remained in ’65, are you? That approximately was when they began going downhill. The passing of R’ Velvel Brisker זצ״ל five years earlier, combined with their sidelining of R’ Amram, left them without any responsible adults in the room. The letter was addressed to his “colleagues in Yerushalayim”, that doesn’t hint anything to you? How much do you even really know about the history of NK? If you did your homework you would understand the absurdity of your question.
Well, maybe it was a get.
Steipler writes in a nice tone trying to find common ground, but he is clearly indicating that there is a problem here.
Maybe not yet a get, just warning a sotah.bet that ujm will not address my post above
because ….
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.AAQ – The wording and tone of the letter clearly indicates that the Steipler is responding to a request from the Eidah or similar people to join their Shittah or at least write them some sort of letter of recommendation, something the Steipler politely refuses to do. It is equally clear that the Steipler doesn’t expect to convince them to change their Shittah, and certainly isn’t ‘warning’ them to do so. That’s the whole story, nothing more. Just two Talmidei Chachomim politely disagreeing about a controversial issue.
Yaakov: I’m very aware of the history. – But you neglected to mention that for some strange reason, the first time NK publicly associated with the Arabs was davka AFTER R’ Amram left… Nothing to see here.
And the NK was quite “radical” (in the sense how hamon hoam defines radical in these regards) under the leadership of Rav Amrom.
Why the need to qualify “radical” with additional peirushim? Ela mai…
It didn’t suddently flip within five years after Rav Amrom withdrew from the leadership.
Sure it did. There were people looking to get rid of R’ Amram זצ״ל already beforehand, and they used his marriage to a giyores as an excuse to do so.
There are quite the stories of Rav Amrom himself.
About his willingness to sacrifice himself, not to sacrifice others… A little difference goes a long way…
Btw, if you search the UN website you can find documents from the NK petitioning the UN in the 1950s to take away Israeli sovereignty and place the Holy Land under international control and UN protectorate.
That would be a continuation of the De Haan negotiations of the ’20s, and the negotiations with King Abdullah in ’47. Not what the PLO was looking for, certainly not what Iran is looking for now.
@ SJ
If you care even a little bit about emes, before just throwing terms around willy nilly, you may want to review the halachos of masis u’ madiach.
Next
Somehow, the vast majority of the Torah world manages not to be Zionist without needing to endorse / embrace vicious murderers You do realize that someone can be both a vicious murder AND anti-Zionist at the same time, right?
You wrote: “Just two Talmidei Chachomim politely disagreeing about a controversial issue”
I don’t think the following qualifies as just polite disagreement. More like a polite warning not to go off the deep end.
“And your esteemed honor should know that even for the purpose of zealotry, it is forbidden to misinterpret the Torah contrary to Halakha [לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה], and that which is not true will not succeed at all”
NP – Whatever exactly you call it, that ending is still pretty polite! It also completely negates the point that “ujm” keeps trying to make… As if the Steipler somehow condoned anything remotely resembling the freak show that NK has become.
NP – Actually, if you read it carefully, it seems that the Steipler calls [whatever the recipient of the letter was trying to get him to agree to] לגלות פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה. That would read even worse for ujm…
@non-political
I’m not sure what your cryptic criticism is about my use of the terms “masis” and “madiach”. Please explain what I got wrong.seems I am winning my bet here
ujm is not responding to the clear objective understanding that staipler is not referring to the neture karta as we call them
not those from once , not those from now
he is referring to the edah people
that much is clear from the context
otherwise mr ujm , WHY IS HE SUDDENLY ADDRESSING THEM in the middle of the letter about voting ?
WHY IS HE NOT ADDRESSING THE EDAH PEOPLE ??
who are the ones who are on record to prohibit voting , and who the staipler mentions specifically in his letter ?
any answer to those questions – mr ujm ??
or are you made out of the same materiel as your compatriots katan and somejew
who only speak when their automated answering machine is working and properly preprogrammed ???
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.YYA, NP,
I think you are both right – Steipler both gently refuses their calls, and as gently but firmly says that misuse of Torah is forbidden.my cousin in Belgium tells me that there is one of the nturei karta there – originally from Manchester England
who travelled to Iran to participate in the holocaust denying conference there
according to ujm
he is covered by the staiplers so called ‘love and respect’ letter ….
ma la’asot …
this very same neturei karta person continued with his nefarious activities ….
and initiated legal action against shechita and mila claiming that they are against animal and human rights
my question to ujm – is that ok ?
maybe we should use the staiplers letter
after all the staipler is referring to neturei karta ? !
who bizhut the letter , enjoy blanket immunity for all their future actions …… ????
ujm ‘s position is plain ridiculous .
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