The Wicked Son, and the Kiruv System

Home Forums Controversial Topics The Wicked Son, and the Kiruv System

Viewing 32 posts - 51 through 82 (of 82 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1249876
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “but I’m wondering what the Torah position is when we think about it rationally, leaving our emotions aside.”

    “Why would we cast aside our emotions when we are dealing with an emotional question?”

    When you are trying to determine the Torah’s position, you must do so from a place of rationality. If you determine that the Torah’s position is that you use your emotions when dealing with your children, then you should use your emotions while dealing with your children. But while you are deciding what the Torah’s position is, you have to keep your emotions at bay.

    #1249911
    5ish
    Participant

    Yekke, I was not referring to specifically you. I was referring to a dispute where people talk past each other because they are using the same words for different meanings OR they view things as a zero sum game. There is no stirah between loving the wicked son, and hating evil.

    #1249908
    Chortkov
    Participant

    but I’m wondering what the Torah position is when we think about it rationally, leaving our emotions aside.

    Why would we cast aside our emotions when we are dealing with an emotional question?

    Precisely because it is an emotional question, you have to put emotion aside. There is no way to objectively solve a moral dilemma when your emotions are pushing you to a biased decision, and you will just rationalize what you feel is correct without even realizing that the voice isn’t one of reason. You’ve got to put all personal נגיעות out the window, and think about it properly. Only then can you rely that your decision has been thought out.


    @yes-its-me
    : we have yet to find a functional OTD kid

    I think you underestimate the allure of the Big Bad Beyond and the social power of bad friends. Sadly, not every child who is OTD is “non functional”. I have met too many OTD people who are the only too sane. It’s called the יצר הרע.

    #1249918
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Lilmod Ulelamaid,

    When you are trying to determine the Torah’s position, you must do so from a place of rationality. If you determine that the Torah’s position is that you use your emotions when dealing with your children, then you should use your emotions while dealing with your children. But while you are deciding what the Torah’s position is, you have to keep your emotions at bay.

    True, and good catch. I misread what yekke2 wrote. I wasn’t intending to imply that our emotions should override our obligation to learn and carry out the Torah’s position, but rather that when the Torah deals with emotional issues, it takes into account that we are emotional beings.

    #1250733
    yes-its-me
    Participant

    send them my way and within a few short munites it will become apparent that even though people do avairos they don’t leve behind all that is dear to their families and backgorund unless there is a severe trauma. simple question like “if you kept the torah what would it mean about you” will tell you tons!

    #1250389
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke2 – do you really have friends who seem to be reshaim? That is so sad. Wondering how you got to be friends with them in the first place. I guess it’s the generation.
    Are you sure that they don’t have issues that you don’t know about? People who work with kids who are OTD say that a huge percentage have been abused. That’s something that you wouldn’t necessarily be aware of.

    #1250789
    Chortkov
    Participant

    LU: Yekke2 – do you really have friends who seem to be reshaim? That is so sad.

    Do I have friends who seem to be reshaim? No, I b”H don’t. But people who were friends of mine (not close friends, but friendly acquaintances) have moved on since the days that we were friends, r”l. I still daven for them to come back.

    Wondering how you got to be friends with them in the first place. I guess it’s the generation.

    I have quite a large range of friends, for the better and for the worse. I might seem extreme right wing on the CR, where discussions are theoretical, but I guess I’m much nicer a person in real life, and have friends of all shapes and sizes in different social circles.

    In England, you don’t have the luxury of not meeting people at risk. In America, there is enough demand to tailor-make Yeshivas designed for each type of person, and you can rate yourself and find a Yeshiva that works. In London, there just isn’t the demand because the community is much smaller. There are three schools which cater exclusively for the Shomer Shabbos oilom, meaning that even if you go to the frummest of the three, you are bound to have people there who you wouldn’t want to expose yourself to.

    Are you sure that they don’t have issues that you don’t know about? People who work with kids who are OTD say that a huge percentage have been abused. That’s something that you wouldn’t necessarily be aware of.

    Am I positively sure? No. But in some of the cases, I have spoken to the Rabbanim and therapists involved, and I have been assured (to the surprise of some of the aforementioned professionals) that it was simply Yetzer Hara – some of them Yetzer Hara deZnus and others Yetzer Hara De’Avoida Zara (which apparently does exist today in the form of Atheism, if not in the form of pagan idolatory). I’d be very surprised to hear that it was abuse.

    I don’t know why today every criminal is simply a חולה. Is there not such a thing as a Yetzer Hara? There are enough Gemaras about the Yetzer Hara that I don’t need to bother quoting. Everyone has one. B”H, most of us are עומד על נסיון, some/most of the time. But laziness, taivah and peer pressure can do terrible things to someone who needs that extra bit of freedom. Not every עבירה can be blamed on psychological trauma!

    #1251127
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I don’t know why today every criminal is simply a חולה. Is there not such a thing as a Yetzer Hara? There are enough Gemaras about the Yetzer Hara that I don’t need to bother quoting. Everyone has one. B”H, most of us are עומד על נסיון, some/most of the time. But laziness, taivah and peer pressure can do terrible things to someone who needs that extra bit of freedom. Not every עבירה can be blamed on psychological trauma!”

    I guess I’m also really a liberal despite the fact that I also probably come across as extreme right wing in the CR :).

    I have a hard time believing that anyone can truly be bad deliberately. It’s just not logical to be deliberately bad. I always feel like there must be something behind it and like there must be a way to reach everyone.

    To some extent (as I always have to remind myself) this does not seem to be the Torah’s hashkafa. There clearly is a concept of reshaim such as Haman, hitler, nazis, Arab terrorists, hard as it is for me to grasp.

    On the other hand, to a certain extent, it is the Torah’s hashkafa. According to the Torah, everyone has the potential to do Teshuva, and there are many Gedolim stories about Gedolim who saw the good in everyone and thus were able to bring it out.

    Even if you say that it’s not psychological and it’s the Yetzer Hora, according to Chazal that is a psychological problem on some level אין אדם עובר עבירה אלא אם כן נכנס בו רוח שטות

    As you wrote, most people are able to be עומד על נסיון most of the time. It is in a person’s best interest to be Frum and most people who are brought up Frum stay that way. For those that give in to their yetzer hara and stop being Frum, I think there must have been some reason why they had a harder time than most (be it nature, nurture, or something that happened to them), even if it’s not something so obvious like abuse or psychological problems.

    #1251131
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I might seem extreme right wing on the CR, where discussions are theoretical, but I guess I’m much nicer a person in real life, and have friends of all shapes and sizes in different social circles.”

    I don’t think there’s a stira between the two. Some of the nicest people I know are extreme right wing… And btw, you do come across as very nice in the CR (which is an accomplishment!).

    #1251202
    Joseph
    Participant

    Blazes, Yekke, I’m disappointed to hear you might be less extreme than presented!

    #1251404
    Chortkov
    Participant

    LU – Thank you.

    Joseph – Not less extreme, just more humane. I have the same views and opinions here as I do in Real Life. But the only projection you get of me here is my opinions, you don’t get to see me as a person. I don’t socialize here, I just add my two cents to the discussion.

    I guess I should clarify what I meant to say: Although I may share more radical views than many posters here, this doesn’t stop me from being friends with people who don’t share my views, and that in my social and learning life, I have numerous friends the entire range of the spectrum.

    I suppose this a good place the disclaimer that I don’t really know what “Right Wing” actually means, I just know that I usually find most of the things labelled “left wing” to be wrong.

    #1251470
    Chortkov
    Participant

    LU: I have a hard time believing that anyone can truly be bad deliberately. It’s just not logical to be deliberately bad. I always feel like there must be something behind it.

    I have spoken Loshon Hara when I knew what I was saying constituted LH and I knew speaking LH was assur. That was being deliberately bad. It wasn’t an עבירה להבעיס, CH”V, but it was an עבירה במזיד. And it wasn’t because of any psychological issue I have nor as a result of any abuse I suffered as a child.

    On some level or another, we all [אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא] sin. We are not perfect. We have a יצר הרע. I’m sorry to say, but I don’t believe that every עבירה you’ve done in your life was a שוגג.

    This is what חזל mean that אין אדם חוטא אא”כ נכנס בו רוח שטות. On a rational level, if you (a) are aware something is assur, (b) believe in Hashem, and (c) believe in Schar V’Oinesh, it is foolish to sin. The same thought that stops you jumping into a fire should stop you sinning. But we don’t live our lives on a rational level.

    #1251485
    blubluh
    Participant

    This is probably not a novel idea, but in reading many of these postings, I thought of viewing the discussion of the four sons in the Haggadah as a metaphor: each of us is an amalgam of all four sons. We are at times wise, wicked, simple and entirely at a loss for words.

    The Torah is our guide from wherever we are to where we need to be. Sometimes we need strong, maybe startling mussar, sometimes we just need to be pointed in the right direction and sometimes we need someone to accompany us every step of the way. Even if we’re not in that situation today, there’s no guarantee we won’t be tomorrow.

    Perhaps the Torah (and, by extention, the Haggadah) couched these concepts in terms of “v’higaddetta l’bincha” and “ki yishalcha bincha”, first, because sometimes it’s far easier to accept that others are in dire need of guidance than to recognize that need in ourselves and, secondly, to help us be as dedicated and self-sacrificing addressing those (our) needs as we are towards the needs of our children.

    #1251526
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    blubluh – very nice! I like that! It may or not be novel, but I don’t think I ever heard it before. Did you come up with it on your own?

    I don’t think it can be considered the “pshat” so the OP’s question still remains, but it’s a really nice idea nonetheless.

    #1251528
    Chortkov
    Participant

    blubluh: Beautiful vort.

    ברוך שכוונת לדעת פפא בר אבא

    Making Up Divrei Torah At The Seder

    #1251529
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke- when I used the term “deliberately”, I didn’t mean what you are talking about. What you are talking about is someone giving into his yetzer hora. While it’s technically “b’maizid”, on some level it’s not. I’m pretty sure that there is somewhere (I can’t remember where) where such an aveira is referred to as “shogeig” in the sense that the person did not really WANT to sin, they just had a hard time controlling their yetzer hara since as you wrote, we are not perfect and we are all works in progress.

    I had been talking about people who sin deliberately – who don’t care and aren’t even trying. That seemed to be what you were talking about when you referred to your friends as reshaim.

    #1251556
    Chortkov
    Participant

    #post-941384

    I’ve seen it from the Sfas Emes, I think.

    #1251532
    Chortkov
    Participant

    If we’re anyways writing thoughts on the Four Sons, here’s one I had which is relevant to this thread:

    The question is often asked: The opposite of rasha is a tzaddik, not chochom. Why is chochom given as the other extreme of rasha?

    (DISCLAIMER: The question doesn’t really start; we are discussing four personality traits. Wickedness is one. The opposited of the Wicked Son is the Righteous Son, who is split into three categories: The Clever Son, the Simple Son and the One Who Cannot Ask. Chochom is the opposite of Tam, not of Rasha)

    I think that if you look a bit deeper into the definition of a Chochom and the definition of a Rasha, you will find they are direct opposites. The Mishneh writes “אזהו חכם – הרואה את הנולד”. Chochmoh is measured by the ability to foresee consequences, and calculates his actions based on their ramifications.

    What is a Rasha? If someone believes in Hashem, believes in Hashgacha, and believes in Schar VeOinesh, it should be impossible to sin willingly. Don’t you understand that the negative consequences of this action should outweigh any momentary pleasure you might have? In the capacity of rational thought, there is no ability to sin.

    A Rasha is someone who isn’t רואה את הנולד. He lives in the present; he doesn’t SEE the future when he acts. He thinks of the fleeting, momentary pleasure rather than the negative ramifications of his actions. Every sin involves “forgetting” the future that he will reap from the seeds he plants. A Rasha is the antithesis of the Chacham.

    This came to mind when I saw the אבן עזרא in Parshas Yisro – “כי לא יתכן להיות ירא שמים כראוי רק מי שהוא חכם”. (He’s coming to explain how Yisro spoke about אנשי חיל יראי אלקים, and Moshe said חכמים ונבנים, and he writes that they are one and the same)

    #1251568
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I had been talking about people who sin deliberately – who don’t care and aren’t even trying. That seemed to be what you were talking about when you referred to your friends as reshaim.

    I see. I once made the same argument in a discussion with a room full of bochurim – that I don’t understand the people who go off the derech without rationalising that they don’t believe in Hashem. When it becomes a matter of policy rather than slipping up, how do they answer themselves? If you can tell yourself you don’t believe in Hashem somehow, then you have a reasonable excuse. But if you have no reason not to, then what sort of excuse is “the system failed me” or “I wanted a real education” or the other cliche excuses that you hear.

    One bochur came to me afterwards, and after making me promise not to repeat it to anybody else, he told me that he went through a stage in his life where he was so angry with Hashem, he did aveiros out of pure rage. It was an irrational “if You don’t care about me, I don’t care about You”, with full awareness of the logical idiocy of such an argument. I was shocked; this is one of the most rational bochurim I have met – by the time I met him, he was way past that stage, and is now a respected Talmid Chochom.

    It was one of the times where it hit me how we are humans, and our mind is actually controlled by our emotions, regardless of how intelligent and mature we may be. #HittingTheFrogs

    #1251581
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke – very nice Dvar Torah.

    #1251687
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I would not consider that boy to be someone who is sinning deliberately and I would not call him a rasha. I would consider him to be in the category of someone who is at-risk because of psychological issues. He was doing aveiros only because he was going through a very hard time.

    I don’t know the boy, but I’m not shocked. I think that I and most people have done similar things, although perhaps to a lesser degree. I don’t know if I would have ever said that I was angry at Hashem, but I have certainly done aveiros in my life because I was upset with other people, which is kind of the same thing but to a lesser degree if you think about it (since everything comes from Hashem).

    I remember once when I was 16 doing something that I knew was wrong (although I was able to rationalize it as being technically mutar which may or may not have been correct) just because I was upset about something, and I remember thinking that it might not really have been okay but I was too upset to care.

    The boy you are describing does not sound anything like the Rasha in the Hagadah. And he does not sound like someone who would have gained from the approach used in the Haggadah.

    #1251751
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I don’t know the boy, but I’m not shocked. I think that I and most people have done similar things, although perhaps to a lesser degree. I don’t know if I would have ever said that I was angry at Hashem, but I have certainly done aveiros in my life because I was upset with other people, which is kind of the same thing but to a lesser degree if you think about it (since everything comes from Hashem).

    It’s not the same thing at all. Being upset with someone else can be a cause to lose yourself in anger, and forget about Hashem. (And even though the knowledge is still there, it is like that of a smoker who knows that smoking kills, and is aware that the doctor told him he only has a year left to live etc. etc.) I was talking specifically about doing the avierah out of a solid awareness of Hashem. There’s a difference. And it’s difficult to explain why I was shocked if you’ve never met this guy. I would explain, but if I give away any details, there are too many people who know me and will be able to work out the identity of the guy we’re discussing.

    And he does not sound like someone who would have gained from the approach used in the Haggadah

    Part of the discussion in this thread was supposed to be about exactly this: I’m not sure that the correct response necessarily means the most effective one.

    #1251802
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Personally, I don’t think I ever forget about Hashem. Any time I’ve ever done anything wrong, I was always solidly aware of Hashem – I just felt like I needed to do what ever I was doing. I’m not sure that I understand how it’s possible to not be solidly aware of Hashem (I’m only speaking of myself obviously – I am not sure what goes on in other people’s heads. Obviously, I can also be wrong about what goes on in my own head/heart, but I really don’t think I am).

    “Part of the discussion in this thread was supposed to be about exactly this: I’m not sure that the correct response necessarily means the most effective one.”

    That’s interesting – I hadn’t realized that was your point. I’ll have to think about that. I think that the point of the response to the Rasha is precisely because it is the most effective for him. Of course, one could “taaneh” as I think someone already did that the point is for the others there. But I think that the point is for him as well. We don’t give up on anyone – certainly not another Jew.

    #1251866
    Chortkov
    Participant

    You always have וידעת היום, but you don’t always have השיבות אל לבבך. There is a difference between being aware, and being fully cognizant of the fact enough that you feel it. Call it the שביתי ה’ לנגדי תמיד.

    #1252141
    blubluh
    Participant

    LU & Yekk2 – Thank you for the kind words.

    > “Did you come up with it on your own?”
    It dawned on me while thinking about some of the discussion
    in this forum.

    I’m now experiencing an aging parent who is gradually, but
    noticeably,losing short term memory and is often challenged
    to find the words to convey thoughts and experiences.

    It’s made me a lot more conscious of how dependent we are –
    or can easily become – on assistance from outside of ourselves.
    So, it isn’t quite a huge leap of insight on my part of see the
    Haggadah and other sources differently than I have in the past.

    #1252153
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Yekke2:

    “Friends of shapes and sizes…”

    To quote a mutual friend of considerable shape and size, “You wouldn’t be talking about me now, would ya?”

    #1252159
    iacisrmma
    Participant

    yekke2: In your OP you asked “Is our modern day Kiruv model congruous with the advice given in the Haggadah, or is our technique wrong?” I heard last night at a shiur on Pesach that since our approach to kiruv has changed, the advice of the Baal Hagadah may not apply nowadays.

    #1252248
    Chortkov
    Participant

    I heard last night at a shiur on Pesach that since our approach to kiruv has changed, the advice of the Baal Hagadah may not apply nowadays.

    Whose authority is big enough to decide to change our policy from following the Tannaim to a more modern day attitude?

    #1252264
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    <em I heard last night at a shiur on Pesach that since our approach to kiruv has changed, the advice of the Baal Hagadah may not apply nowadays.

    Whose authority is big enough to decide to change our policy from following the Tannaim to a more modern day attitude?

    In the time of the Taanim, the Rabbanim had more real control over people, they could force you to keep Halacha and throwing out a Rasha, would likely lead them to Tshuva

    Today if you throw out someone calling them a Rasha, will more likely lead them to leave and not come back and maybe even become “successful” and not let you forget it

    #1252372
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Yekke: “You always have וידעת היום, but you don’t always have השיבות אל לבבך. There is a difference between being aware, and being fully cognizant of the fact enough that you feel it. Call it the שביתי ה’ לנגדי תמיד.”

    I got that that was what you meant from your previous post, but I just don’t see it personally. I think that I am always “fully cognizant of the fact enough that I feel it.”. Of course there are different levels and what I mean by that would not be what Rav Chaim Shlita would mean by it, but I do think those words describe the way I feel all of the time, at least on some level. And I certainly don’t feel Hashem’s Presence any less even when I do something wrong. I actually am probably even more aware of it.

    According to a friend of mine I am unusual in that I always approach things rationally and I think in black and white terms (meaning, if something is wrong, don’t do it, period). I’m not sure if I’m as unusual as she thinks, since I think that there are many people I know like that. But it could be that most people don’t work that way.
    The point is that even when I do something wrong, I am doing it because I feel like I need to because I am not on the level of being perfect. It is not because I just “forgot about Hashem” or stopped thinking or something.

    But maybe other people don’t work that way. I’ve never been inside anyone else’s head so I wouldn’t know. It’s also possible that I am not as self-aware as I think I am, but I really don’t think so.

    Personally, I have a hard time understanding how it’s possible to not be aware of Hashem’s Presence ever.

    PS: I just gave away my identity if she is reading this, and she told me she reads the CR sometimes.

    #1252397
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD – while what you are saying may be true, I think the issue is that it seems problematic to say that something that we read at the Seder every year does not apply anymore.

    The whole idea of Pesach and the Seder is about passing on the Mesorah from generation to generation, so it does seem difficult to say that the way we are told on Pesach at the Seder to be mechanech our children and pass on the mesorah no longer applies. That is the antithesis of what the Pesach Seder is about!

    I think though the answer is what I wrote earlier. We can’t say that it doesn’t apply at all, but we have to think carefully about when and how we apply it. There may be children today who seem like the Rasha in the Haggada but are not.

    That is not a complete answer, but only the beginning of an answer. One still has to think about it and figure out how and when to apply it. One of the themes of the Seder is getting the children to ask questions. When I was a kid we had to take a test before Pesach called a “halacha yomis” test on Hilchos Pesach. I remember that half the answers to the questions were “so the children will ask”. I remember thinking about how illogical that was. If the point was “so that the children will ask” then there has to be an answer, so why weren’t we being given an answer?

    But I think I just chapped. I think the point is that sometimes a question is better than the answer. I think this is one of those times.

    I think this is a question that doesn’t have a simple answer. The answer is neither “Well, today it’s different.” or “No, our generation has it all wrong. We are supposed to be tough, etc.”

    The answer is neither of those. The answer is that this is something to think about. Chinuch is not a simple thing. People are complex. Sometimes one must use one method and sometimes another. Each child is different and each situation is different. Don’t make assumptions, but rather, try to understand the person and where his question is coming from and what the tailor-made approach is for him.

    Thank you Yekke for providing an excellent question.

    #1252607
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Personally, I have a hard time understanding how it’s possible to not be aware of Hashem’s Presence ever.

    Perhaps I worded it wrong. It isn’t about a lack of awareness at all. Have a look at the way R’ Dessler explains it in Michtav Me’Eliyahu. It’s about relegating what you know should be your main priority into the back of your mind and prioritizing much less important things, even though logically that makes no sense at all. (I haven’t seen it for about five years; I may be misquoting it)

Viewing 32 posts - 51 through 82 (of 82 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.