November 20, 2018 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1626680
Yitzchak Ginzburg?? He is a loony Meshichist, and rumor has it that his followers (mostly disillusioned MO and others) sing Yechi referring to him.November 20, 2018 10:10 am at 10:10 am #1626707
“The problem is that cuckoo thought has penetrated chabad so much so that no one feels like standing up and saying something about. ”
Na the problem is all those people know good and well that their fellow chassidim have what to rely on even if they don’t hold that way (of course I don’t expect you to understand but fellow lubavitchers know what i mean). Chabad Rabbonim and mashpiim have no problem speaking their mind on right and wrong.November 20, 2018 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1626758TomimTihyehParticipant
Shlucha: “the shmuel munkes story was your justification for your non ahavas yisrael ways but the truth is its not a good one. Because there the Alter Rebbe had just been saved from am almost death sentence and libel which was committed by the misnagdim who all supported it. So we can understand how he couldn’t help himself.”
Today also thr Rebbe is being labeled by the misnagdim, including ones posting here, being maktin the Rebbe’s gadlus by suggesting that we have to compare him to all kinds of people who were not worthy to be dust under his holy feet, among other liberals. And the almost death sentence is not greater than the helem that the Rebbe must undergo now – do you think it’s not because of the misnagdim that he – and lehavdil we – are suffering through since Gimmel Tammuz?!November 20, 2018 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1626773TomimTihyehParticipant
When people like Ezra Hakoifer think they will minimize who the Rebbe is to be more accepted by the misnagdim, you’d better believe we will call him out on it!November 20, 2018 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1626776Avram in MDParticipant
“Careful – you dont want the snags to know that the Frierdiker Rebbe revealed to us that they think this way! Lol”
You like telling it like it is, “lol”? Fine, I’ll tell it like it is. Better to be snags than ovdei avoda zara. We hope for the coming of melech hamoshiach every day, but we do not hope for a replacement of Hashem, R”L. Yes, I know it is much easier to have a relationship with a man – someone you can see, someone who smiles at you. It is scary to try and relate with a Creator Who is infinite and beyond our limited senses and perceptions, but that is what Hashem asks of us. That is what Avraham Avinu did. That is what Moshe Rabbeinu did, and exhorted us to do. You hold that the Rambam is the final word on Moshiach. Fine. Did the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L build the beis hamikdash? Are we all living in Eretz Yisroel? Is he sitting on the throne of Dovid Hamelech in Yerushalayim? Was the korban tamid offered this morning? No. Therefore, the moshiach has not yet come, and you cannot redefine what the moshiach is to get around that, changing him into some sort of deity. The Christians already tried that 2000 years ago, so you’re late to the party.
You’re getting so bent out of shape over perceived disrespect of your rebbe. But unlike you, who has used nivul peh CV”S to refer to Rav Kotler ZT”L and other precious and holy Torah leaders, nobody here has insulted the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT”L. We’re just not accepting him as the moshiach, based on the very clear criteria of the Rambam, and you seem to interpret that as disrespect. Well, guess what? You are disrespecting the Lubavitcher Rebbe, ZT”L much more than anyone else here, because he is certainly not getting nachas in shamayim when a supposed chassid of his makes him into a god, R”L.
There is only ONE G-D, and that is Hashem. And He is not a man.
Slight editNovember 20, 2018 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1626782
Sechel, if he is a meshichist, he doesnt advertise it. (I never met him, just read his english sferom, which Ive liked.)
Anyways, can you please respond to the rest of my messages, instead of focusing on that one part?
If Ginzberg is Meshicihist I denounce him (just like I’d denounce any other person who plays games with one of the other 13 ikkarim, even if theyre not technically kefira per se.) How about you sechel? Would you denounce Meshichists – and by that I include even those who acknowledge the Rebbe is dead?November 20, 2018 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1626786
SR – maybe your getting confused between Levi Ginzberg and Yitchok Ginzberg? (weird that your post got erased.)November 20, 2018 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1626787
“he – and lehavdil we – are suffering through since Gimmel Tammuz?!”
Whatever we can do to keep you suffering, please don’t hesitate to let us know 🙂November 20, 2018 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1626788
TT – now I’m convinced your a troll.
Do you really think the rebbe is suffering???????
I for one think he’s in Gan Eden.November 20, 2018 10:54 am at 10:54 am #1626803
Ezra HaKoifer? That’s a new one, I haven’t even heard of that before. Who is Ezra HaKoifer? Rabbi Shochat?
Do you make these names up at “Pinat Hachai” while making up your ridiculous nursery rhymes?November 20, 2018 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1626854
To quote sh: “Ezra HaKoifer? That’s a new one, I haven’t even heard of that before. Who is Ezra HaKoifer? Rabbi Shochat?”
Me either. Nor do I care. We don’t know why we didn’t yet merit to see the Geula etc. Gimmel tammuz took lubavitch by shock. But I would think a chossids response is introspection and figuring out where we could do better, not blaming it on others.November 20, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1626866
Don’t get me wrong TT. Now that you’re hear already and you’ve roused a storm by the way you speak, we all expect you to answer the questions fully… Don’t disappear now…November 20, 2018 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1626867
And by fully I mean properly with sources and actual content, not blasting people for responding to your incendiary statementsNovember 20, 2018 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1626931
Why do you all constantly feed trolls and think that people saying crazy things for the purposes of riling others up are suddenly going to write sources and have a nice conversation? Its mamesh not normal.November 20, 2018 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1626947samthenylicParticipant
I was right with my previous post. With no central manhig/rebbe to show the way,everyone comes up with their own “Boich Svaras”.
Whether it is “Ezra” or “levy” Ginzburg, there are new deities, and new rebbes in Lubavich. Ein melech b’Yisroel ish kol hayoshor b’einov yaase. At this rate, the whole chasidus is in danger of collapse, more from infighting than external pressure. The responsible rabbonim should do something about it!
editedNovember 20, 2018 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1626955RSoParticipant
TT: “do you think it’s not because of the misnagdim that he – and lehavdil we – are suffering through since Gimmel Tammuz?!”
I know it’s not. And I think it’s because or the apikorsishe beliefs of people like you.November 20, 2018 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1627143
Oh yeah I should tell you the was one exception (although not a contemporary Rebbe) the breslovers I’ve spoken to study their Rebbes teachings, view him as a tzadik, and I’ve seen signs in Israel claiming he’s moshiach too. (Although the breslovers I spoke to personally didn’t mention that)November 20, 2018 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1627110Non PoliticalParticipant
“Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc) and most of them are not even misnagdim in any way at all, just fellow frum yidden.”
That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.
You should know that Muslims have a similar position. One of their proofs for Islam is that anyone who knows Arabic and can therefore read and understand the Koran will see clearly that it is a work of prophecy. Anyone who does not accept it as such is either a) doesn’t understand it or b) is a willing infidel.
I’m NOT chv”sh comparing you to a muslim. I AM comparing your statement and their “proof”.November 20, 2018 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1627083
“How is this not getting through to you? You really expect us to believe you met significant amounts of Satmars and none of them learned Divrei Yoel? I might believe that you THINK that, but I don’t believe it’s actually true.”
You forget im a woman. Sure the men may learn or not, I don’t know, but the women have no clue about their own chassidus, what R Yoel or the Noam Elimelech say, and don’t just blame that on their shitta not to learn inside texts. The Rebbe’s mother, Rebbetzin Chana, never went to school but she knew allot from hearing what was spoken about at home (her father was a Rav and she constantly heard shaalos etc.)
“As far as “viewing their Rebbe like you do,” yeah… as we’ve said, the rest of the frum velt poskens that the way you view your Rebbe is kefira, so you’ll have trouble finding that. Were you under the impression that all Chassidim believe their Rebbe to be moshiach?”
Firstly I wasn’t necessarily referring to the moshiach bit but simply the esteem due a tzadik. But happens to be in 1940 the Satmar had no problem welcoming their Rebbe with the title of moshiach. It used to be much more common. And in fact, the chassidish people I spoke to told me outright that they used to think of their Rebbeim as tzaddikim, but not today although they respect them as talmidei chachamim.
Me: “Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc)”
You “Did you think this was a private message to TT that the rest of us couldn’t see? Or did you just think we would be totally fine with your assertion that we’re totally ignorant of the halachah and need Chabad to educate us? Are we on crazy pills or something? The world is not a secular college campus! There are frum people that know stuff.”
Well the two examples I gave in my comment came from real things on this thread and the first (if you really want me to I can spell it out.) I wish people were more educated on what Geula and moshiach is or isn’t, what Chabad mean when they say x or y, etc. It would lead to allot more mutual understanding (even if lack of agreement) instead of misunderstandings and outright ignorance.November 20, 2018 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1627458ToiParticipant
I feel like I’m watching memes of liberals imploding. This went well, much better than I expected.November 20, 2018 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1627641
Oh yeah just to clarify one more thing they definitely knew their political shittos. I mean the Satmar family I stayed by in in meah shearim had a whole newspaper which was berating the tzionim. The girls also told me about an offshoot of Satmar that they think is crazy and how they add one more layer of clothing for every birthday (or so the joke goes they said.) they also definitely held of going to tishen and giving kvittlach. That doesn’t negate anything I’ve said. rso was saying that he takes offence to the use of the term chagas because they all have Toras Hachassidus just like we do m whereas my experience has shown me that chagas was a very applicable term – they hold of chassidishe hanhogos etc but don’t have a unique shitta of step by step Avodas Hashem like the Tanya for example.November 20, 2018 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1627731
That’s quite a condescending statement. I find it personally offensive and I’m sure other posters on this thread do as well.
To clarify (cuz you probably assumed I’m talking about hisnagdus to the idea of the Rebbe being moshiach) I meant hisnagdus to lubavitch in general.
If you understood what I meant and still find it condescending please explain why. You’ve been pretty good at thatNovember 20, 2018 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1627756
“hey hold of chassidishe hanhogos etc but don’t have a unique shitta of step by step Avodas Hashem like the Tanya for example.” Why is that a reason why the term ChaGaS is applicable. Also, it isn’t even necessarily true. There are plenty of sefarim of practical advice in Avodas Hashem. Why should the fact that perhaps they are not arranged in the same fashion be a reason why the Alter Rebbe’s shita is ChaBaD and the shita of others is ChaGaS?November 20, 2018 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1627741
CHabadShlucha – No other chassidus in history EVER referred to their rebbe as moshiach – its a CHABAD MYTH!!!!
By repeating this point again and again, it shows how insulated you guys are from the rest of the frum velt.
You remind me of a chabadnik who told me that the reason Rav Shach hated the Rebbe was because he thought that he himself was Mashiach!
The only possible exception are a small group of Breslov nanachs who call the Saba (R’ Odesser_ Moshiach – NOT R Nachman. And even they have more intellectual honesty than you guys – if you go to Har Hamenochois today, you’ll see a big sign saying “Na Nach – To The Kever of The Saba Yisroel Melech Hamashiach Zy”a.” (BN, Ill try to get a pic the next time I go.) At least they get it – Hes DEAD.November 20, 2018 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1627816
5ish I’m sorry I don’t understand your post. Can you reword it again?November 20, 2018 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1627817
If I look up where the newspaper clipping from 1940 showing the banner of the Satmar chassidim greeting their Rebbe with the title moshiach on it, can be accessed, will you be happy? Aside from the breslovers – that you do admit.November 20, 2018 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1627818
BTW np I think allot of progress has been made on understanding both sides – I know for one I understand the “velt” much better than I did from the beginning of the first thread. And I see some concepts have been cleared up such as what we mean by tzadik etc. I do think there still is some confusion and misunderstanding yet to be dispelled, and I hope you would agree with me.November 20, 2018 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1627821
YR: you seem to have come across a few fiery lubavitchers who were not educated enough to answer some basic questions (or just got fed up with being baited) or lacked any education of what goes on outside Chabad. I do try to learn allot (relatively speaking) and understand what I am learning, and have come here to understand and be understood. I hope you do see that.November 20, 2018 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #1627831☕️coffee addictParticipant
Most Lubavitchers probably accepted the fact that the rebbe died just moshiach can come from the deadNovember 20, 2018 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1627893
CS: I would recommend you step back and try to remember why you started going off on tirades against Satmar in the first place. Nobody here has claimed to be a Satmar, so you can’t claim self-defense or some such thing. You keep going through this weird cycle of trying to explain stuff, then filibustering with non answers, then snapping as a result of criticism and letting out an offensive Freudian slip about another community, then becoming apologetic, and finally rinse and repeat. We just keeping going through this cycle over and over until you’ve exhaustively bashed on every non-Chabad community in existence.
Seriously, think about it: why did you bring Satmar up in the first place? You can’t say to prove that Chabad is better, because you claim you aren’t trying to do that. There was no reason whatsoever. It certainly isn’t proving any points about ahavas Yisroel, if you were still on that. It’s very clear for all of us to see, you have been instilled with/taught to have massive amounts of hatred towards other communities (who have done nothing wrong to you probably) and also taught to keep that hatred just between you and other Lubavitchers. As a result of keeping it bottled up, it takes little to no prodding on a forum like this to get you to boil-over and make baseless claims and insults towards undeserving targets.
This thread has really convinced me that there is an “indifference crisis” in the Orthodox community. There should be efforts to deprogram, not allow more and more yidden to become brainwashed under the guise of kiruv.November 21, 2018 2:49 am at 2:49 am #1627929
My opinions on the matter are well known to the veterans of this, and other threads. I don’t need to condemn Meshichistim on cue.
Don’t treat me like a Muslim who is always asked “will you condemn terror outright?” I have made my opinion well known here, and I’ll let others fill you in, or find my old posts.November 21, 2018 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1627936EDGARHOOVERParticipant
What world are you living in???!!!
When I look around me and see the news it seems to me that the world is a state of HURBAN!
When I speak to people I am reminded of the sons in law of Lot.
As you remember, they died laughing!November 21, 2018 7:17 am at 7:17 am #1627953
@sechel. I have not read any old threads. If you accuse me of making up stories, I’ll attack back because I wonder about your motiviations.. Otherwise, I don’t really care what you think. (Though based on your last comment, we’re probably on the same page. I just wish that lubavitchers like you were more outspoken.)
mild editNovember 21, 2018 7:18 am at 7:18 am #1627947
Neville : where did you see me attacking Satmar? I have nothing against them. Like I said I have Satmar friendsNovember 21, 2018 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1628039
Neville if someone said Chabad is outstanding in its insularity and zionism and you pointed out that’s not true based on your experiences with various lubavitchers and what they’ve told you of their shittas, I wouldn’t accuse you of hating Chabad.
Same here. I think the Satmar are proud of their anti zionism and I personally think it’s a good thing that provides balance and is necessary so the irreligious idf top brass and government etc dont force anti Torah laws or exposure in the army etc.
I personally admire them for their chessed and have said so before. They really excel on frum chessed services and its very beautiful. Just because I point out that the girls have no clue of any Chassidus as a philosophy in Avodas Hashem, doesn’t mean I hate them cvs.November 21, 2018 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1628045
CS: Your only interest in being their “friend” seems to be so that you can have first-hand experience and give credibility to your claims of their inferiority. Do you think they would still call you “friend” if they read what you wrote here?
Sechel: I agree you shouldn’t have to condemn Meshichism over and over. I think the reason you’re seeing it come up for you so much is because the world is kind of baffled as to how there can be someone who admits to all the problems in Chabad, but still chooses to associate with that community. Why are there sane people who haven’t left yet?November 21, 2018 10:32 am at 10:32 am #1628183Uncle BenParticipant
CS; “allot” means to assign as a share or portion, what you are trying to say is “a lot”.November 21, 2018 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1628227
I don’t want to answer for sechel – it’s because he thinks its the right mehalech hachayim for him, even if others pervert it. I feel the same way about Breslov.
But that’s no excuse for the failure of chabad’s leadership to make a brouhaha to finally end this for once and for all.November 21, 2018 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1628239
Thanks uncle benNovember 21, 2018 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1628251
Because Lubavitch is Emes.
Are there problems? Yes.
Do I agree with Mishechistim? No.
But by and large, anyone I associate with isn’t so. As I said here months ago, majority of Lubavitch aren’t what you think bbased on reading posts by CS and different encounters you might have had with people.November 21, 2018 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1628282Reb EliezerParticipant
Look at the gemora in Perek Chelek where everyone of the talmidim thought that his rebbi is meshiach.November 21, 2018 11:34 am at 11:34 am #1628279LerntminTayrahParticipant
If you changed “Lubavitch” to “Lev Tahor” or “Eliezer Berland Breslov” in this thread, how would it read differently?November 21, 2018 11:53 am at 11:53 am #1628296
Lerntmittayra maybe see the responses on your thread 😉November 21, 2018 11:55 am at 11:55 am #1628306Avram in MDParticipant
“Why do you all constantly feed trolls and think that people saying crazy things for the purposes of riling others up are suddenly going to write sources and have a nice conversation?”
Poe’s Law.November 21, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1628309
It would be different, LerntminTayrah. Lev Tahor and Berland’s folks don’t try to hide what they are so there would be less deception/skirting the issues.
Sechel: I don’t mind your answer, and it seems like YeshivaRockstar pretty accurately predicted it. However, you really lose credibility trying to imply that the majority of Chabad is non-Meshichist. That’s a lie and you know it. As nice as it is to see a sane Lubavitcher, it can be frustrating when the first line of defense always has to be “every experience you’ve had with Chabad and every Lubavitcher you’ve ever met is an exception, not the rule.”November 21, 2018 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1628444
“However, you really lose credibility trying to imply that the majority of Chabad is non-Meshichist. That’s a lie and you know it.”
I haven’t done comprehensive scientific analysis and research, but I stand by what I said. Lubavitch is huge, and attracts many different people, and doesn’t throw out people who self identify as Lubavitch, perhaps unfortunately. (I say this fully aware of falling into the “No true scottsman fallacy”) What may be a huge number of people, is only a relatively small percentage of Chabad. All this BTW holds true for Lubavitch in the USA and other English speaking countries. This is definitely not accurate for Israel, כידוע לי”ח .
Neville, I truly do understand where you’re coming from, and it’s very easy to judge Chabad based on what you see online, and even by some people in person, but Chabad is much larger than what you’ve been exposed to. For example, the first time I came to Crown Heights (I’m not from anywhere near NY) I was appalled by what I saw going on, and the general vibe in the streets, a sentiment I’m positive that a lot of you here share, and many in Lubavitch share as well. And at that time, someone told me “Crown Heights is much more than what you see on Kingston Ave, if you look deeper, you’ll see a totally different neighborhood”, and slowly I came to see it. You can go into many Batei Midrashim during the day, and see people learning Torah, you can go at night and see people who have just finished work sit down to learn Gemara, you can visit Oholei Torah Bais Medrash and watch hundreds of Bochurim learning, and see the same in 770, during Seder. You just have to know where to look, and unfortunately the bad always sticks out more blantantly than the good. I went the other day to a Pizza store in Lakewood, and I was appalled by the standards (or lack of) of frumkeit there. But I know you can’t judge an entire community based off who visits the Pizza store.November 21, 2018 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1628291
I just want to point out that one thing that has been proven in this and other threads is that Neville believes any criticism, discussion of, or commentary about Jews and Jewish Theology to be HATEFUL if it all contradicts his/her ideology and worldview. I suppose that is ironic because by his/her own measure, all of his/her comments should then be deemed HATEFUL. Get off your high horse. We can talk about things and disagree with one another without being hateful, and without feeling the need to accuse everyone who disagrees with us as hateful. This is the classic shoe on the other foot where non-chassidim accuse chassidim of being elitist/exclusive/hateful because they teach Jews to follow chassidic ideology, while looking past the fact that when they teach Torah and teach people Judaism they teach it according to their own understanding. What a sham of a conversation this is.November 21, 2018 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1628474
@Sechel – Well Said! Exactly what I say to my litvak friends when they attack Chabad.
I just wish the leadership came out vocally against this, and when they don’t, it’s ver naturally for people to assume “Shtika Kehodaah”.
When we all saw how Chabad (rightfully) fought for their sferom till they got it with a big didon netzech, we wonder why we can’t see that today with regards to 770. And we suspect it’s because many don’t care, or worse, tacitly agree.November 21, 2018 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1628477
If you really want to know numbers there’s a very simple way to do it. Obviously people tend to hang out with friends they have more in common with hashkafa wise, call that normal, call more extreme, and less modern or a similar term, say left wing. I think im mainstream, sechel seems to think he is. Very simple. Go through the Yeshivos in USA or whatever given country you know. See how many are “anti” (don’t like the term, but for lack of better), how many mainstream, how many right wing meshichist as in yechi yarmulkes and yellow flags. There you have your numbers…November 21, 2018 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1628608
Just to add a disclaimer to my previous message, when I say left wing (or right wing for that matter) I do not mean any less of a chossid. Sechel is just as much a true chossid of the Rebbe (from what I’ve seen of him) as I try to be and as Rabbi Avtzon of Cincinnati is. The Rebbe is the Rebbe of us all, inspires us all in our Avodas Hashem, and serves as a role model of what the ultimate yid can look like.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.