December 3, 2018 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1635629
username: ““The phrase “the Rebbe runs the world” is a simple translation of “Tzaddik Gozer VeHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. No more and no less. At least that’s how we take it to mean.”
That’s clearly not what it means. One proof being that your rebbe “demanded” Mashiach and he didn’t come. At least, the rest of the frum world thinks that he didn’t come.December 3, 2018 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1635642
CS and USERNAME
But the Rebbe turned the situation around and put a person into power who had no reasonable chance of winning the presidency.
Praise Hashem, all the nations! The goyim are already proclaiming “Yechi HaMelech.”
Sechel – I demand an apology for assuming I made up the Shliach story (That a frei meshichist is better than a frum litvak). This wolf guy clearly beleives this, and gave a speech to a HUGE crowd of chabadniks. So its not just a fringe thing, and it’s time to stop covering up.
(As I mentioned many times before, I have nothing but respect for chabad teachings and the Rebbe, and it bothers me when most chabadniks will not make a macha and end this madness once and for all. If the meshuggeners can have a big psak din with tons of signitures, why can’t the antis band together and make their own?)December 3, 2018 9:03 am at 9:03 am #1635620
Why is it not akin to apikorsus to claim something that is against FACT and then to base a belief system upon it? Where are all the charomim against them?
Is it Kefira to think nonsense? If I believe Moshiach will sit on my chair before his Hisgalus, what Ikkar am I violating as long as I believe that he’ll be a living male, descendant of Beis Dovid etc. It’s not similar to the “Nebach an Apikores” since the typical “Nebach an Apikores” believes in Kefira, but believes it with a Temimus. So if someone would learn the Gemara and somehow becomes absolutely convinced that Moshiach will be a horse, he would be a Koifer Betmimus. But on the other hand, let’s say someone believes that Bar Kochva’s Moshiach. But before before Bar Kochva soured and was killed, he had to go on a trip to China and lived there for 10 years. In the meanwhile Bar Kochva was killed. Would he be a Nebach an Apikores? He believes in all the Ikkarim. He just made a mistake Bemetziyus. He thought Bar Kochva’s alive but he’s really not.
While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?
By the way, as I was looking some stuff up, I cam across Moshiachtalk from Rabbi Gil Student (who made the website about 20 years ago to prove that the Lubavitcher Rebbe can’t be Moshiach). He has a Teshuvah from Rabbi Feldman from NIRC, that while Meshichistim are WONG WRONG WRONG WRONG and messed up in the head, they are not Kofrim, are Bichlal Amisecha, you’re allowed to daven in their shuls (but you have to leave or make a protest when they say Yechi), and are kosher Shochtim (!). The only thing is that since they’re so messed up in the head, they’re not qualified to be a Rov, and should not be supported in any way so that their false Hashkafa doesn’t spread .
And he has a letter from Rabbi Leff where he said “On the other hand, to daven in a shul where the majority have crooked ideas about Yiddishkeit and recite things that have no place as part of the davening, better not to daven in a shul like that. ”
Not that it’s Kefira. Just that it’s very very very wrong and crooked.
So this seems to be this is the attitude that most official Shluchim take (except I don’t know how many of them would Daven in Shuls of Meshichistim, even if those Shuls would be the only ones in the neighborhood). They oppose Meshichistim. They condemn meshichistim. And yes, even in private. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they rant against Meshichistim more in private than in public. I have quite a few friends who learned in Detroit. If I’d even get close to mentioning something about Yechi, I’d get a tongue lashing. And this is true, by the way, when they’re drunk. They try to shut down their institutions. They’re in a court case trying to get back the main shul in 770. And while it may have been true right after nun daled that Antis were just quiet Meshichisten (I wasn’t around then, so I don’t know the underground politics back then), it was definitely over within a decade. I think it’s part of the Meshichist propaganda to say that all Antis are secret Meshichistim, they same way they turned around and made Reb Aharon Soloveichik into a hidden meshichist.
. He says that Meshichistim are insane for a different reason. He said that believing that a person who passed away isn’t exactly Kefira, it’s insane to think that of all the Rabbis over the thousands of years, it will be the Rebbe. The thing is, that most of them deny that the Rebbe ever passed away to begin with, so that reason of insanity doesn’t apply. But there definitely are other reasons why they are insane, as mentioned above.
. I suspect some Meshichist is going to jump out (like they did when Rabbi Aharon Soloveitchik from Chicago wrote his letter) and say “You see!! He’s fine with Meshichistim!!” He’s not. He opposed them and thought that they’re wrong. The only thing that he said was literally “it cannot be dismissed as outside the pale of orthodoxy”. That’s absolutely not an endorsement. Typical lack of reading comprehension from their part.
. I strongly suspect that Rabbi Gil Student cherry-picked the responsa that he published to be palatable to Lubavitch, and that’s why he didn’t publish letters from Rav Shach and others, for example, because my suspicion was that the point of this website was to convince Lubavitcher Meshichistim to drop it (which is why he has also has letters and Kol Korehs from Lubavitcher Antis from back then). But either way, I don’t think that Rabbi Feldman would write an Halachically untrue letter to sound palatable to us.
. It’s another interesting thing, as I’m not even sure how respected was he in the right-wing Yeshivish world. I don’t think that he was seen as his brother (the Rosh Yeshiva of YU), but I don’t think he was seen as his cousins (the current Brisker Rabbonim in Yerushalayim). Could be that since he lived OOT, he was just not so well known. I honestly don’t know.December 3, 2018 9:04 am at 9:04 am #1635684Sechel HaYasharParticipant
If you want an apology, then I apologise.
Wolf is not mainstream at all. Even though CS may think he is, or respect him.
You want a Machaa? I’ve given my opinions hundreds of times here, and won’t continuously rehash all I have previously said. Talking about apologies, Neville still hasn’t apologised for claiming I don’t learn Shulchan Aruch.December 3, 2018 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1635692
So RSo and others: I think it’s established that Username is besoch Amesacha from his posts.
However, the others I’m not quite sure about. It’s a reflection on the Rebbe’s shortsightedness that he didn’t envision all of this coming.December 3, 2018 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1635694
Sechel: Thanks for the apology. Know when a litvisher says something about a lubavitcher 99% of the time were not making it up. We have no agenda against chabad, just a lot of bad experiences.
I don’t want a macha from you at all – I want a kol koreh from Chabad’s leadership. It shouldn’t be that each person needs to issue a denial, it should be a mass condemnation kol koreh. The meshichists have theirs, why can’t antis get their act together as well.December 3, 2018 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1635696
Username: The fact that meshichists say “The rebbe is Mashiach” isn’t kefira. It’s everything else they say (The rebbe watches you, he’s omniscient, omnipotent, never made a mistake, etc.”
If you don’t believe me, read chabadtalk “Did the rebbe ever make a mistake”. There’s a clearcut line between the meshichists and the antis.December 3, 2018 9:43 am at 9:43 am #1635705☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?
The Rebbe, according to any normal way of determining things, passed away. If he was married, his wife would be allowed to marry someone else, etc.
The only possible way I can see (please, if you can offer a reasonable alternative, I’d like to hear) for someone to think he didn’t die is for them to consider him immortal, i.e. not a basar vadam. To me, that’s kefirah.December 3, 2018 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1635935
please, if you can offer a reasonable alternative, I’d like to hear
Denial.December 3, 2018 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #1635962
The rebbe watches you
So? Is it Kefira to think that the Rebbe sees you from Olam HaEmes? Why don’t we wear Tzitzis out in a Beis Hachaim?
And even while he was alive, is it Kefira to think that he can see things happening far away, or the future, for example? If you read many stories from the Baal Shem Tov or from the Chozeh, it’s not an unusual belief.
Only Hashem is omnipotent. Hashem can choose to listen to the Rebbe’s “decrees”.December 3, 2018 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1636055
Username great posts.
DY I can address your post if you’d like.
“The Rebbe, according to any normal way of determining things, passed away. If he was married, his wife would be allowed to marry someone else, etc.
The only possible way I can see (please, if you can offer a reasonable alternative, I’d like to hear) for someone to think he didn’t die is for them to consider him immortal, i.e. not a basar vadam. To me, that’s kefirah.”December 3, 2018 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1636068☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
CS: Go right ahead.December 3, 2018 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1636095
Yup.December 3, 2018 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1636082🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“No idea, that’s a bit above my pay grade :). Everything is in Hashem’s hands and He makes the call.”
umm, this isn’t color war. Hashem doesn’t pick the tzadik of the week to “listen” to. tzadik Gozer means Tzadik gozer. any and all tsaddikim, whether they are in my personal walk of life or not. Do you actually think, as you seem to imply, that Hashem decides which tzadik gets listened to, and you assume it will be “yours”?December 3, 2018 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1636030
A freilichen Chanukah! Sorry haven’t answered in a very timely fashion – been very busy lately and probably will be the next few days as well… So if I don’t get back to you right away on something, its not because I’m shying away, its just because I have other matters to attend to first 😉
Al rishon rishon:
“CS, Chossid and SH (and maybe TT too), are you going to reply/comment on my claim/proof that the sundial story is fiction, or are you just going to ignore it because when a fact doesn’t fit in with what you want to believe the best thing to do is to ignore the fact?”
Rso the reason I didn’t respond further is because i didn’t see anything that warrants a response. Ie if you trust your third grade science experiment knowledge and the grand expertise of your third grade teacher, especially when sun dials are not even in use nowadays, to such an extent that you think that proves the entire Frierdiker Rebbe’s Memoirs are fiction, all it shows is the lengths you are willing to go to believe anything other than what our holy Rebbeim have said.
Ie you’re being the illogical one here. And I think you’ve shown that unhealthy level of skepticism of anything a lubavitcher says, many times over. It gets to a point where I think there’s no point answering your question because you probably believe I’m a paid lubavitch propagandist who is dishonest etc 😂.
Now if you could show an actual discrepancy in events written by the Frierdiker Rebbe himself in two different places or some other impossible contradiction that would warrant a more serious investigation. But you seem to be content to believe everything our chassidim and Rebbeim said and wrote is delusion or fiction while I’m certain that that is complete garbage and falsehood….December 3, 2018 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1636032
“username, that is a nice defense of lubavich shechitah which would be even nicer if it was true. The fact is that in all the communities that I have visited where lubavich has a significant presence, lubavichers will only eat from lubavicher shechita even though in some cases the lubvicher shochet is clearly less of an obvious yirei Shamayim than the other non-lubavicher shochtim.”
Rso I should really leave this but just out of personal experience, my family’s heimishe and Satmar friends refused to eat our lubavitch shechita when they came for our
Simcha (they ate everything else). likewise, my husband and I didn’t eat their meat either when we attended their house for a Simcha. It seems every community trusts their shochtim more, not just lubavitch.
As far as what you say about a specific shochet, im
sure you understand that with the way shechita and meat is processed today most people do not know who exactly shechted their meat. If for whatever reason such a thing would come out, I wouldn’t eat that shechita either.December 3, 2018 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1636088
“Wolf is not mainstream at all. Even though CS may think he is, or respect him.”
I think he’s normal but he gets very enthusiastic when he speaks and yeah if you cherry pick his words you’ll find things that sound extreme (YR are you just skipping around his speeches to find quotes to post here? You obviously haven’t heard the one I posted to listen to above – must’ve been too normal so boring.)
The same would apply to the Rebbe too sechel Im sure you know that. I don’t know why you feel forced to apologise when someone quotes a fiery half sentence out of a speech – you think the Rebbe saying 770 is the gematria of beis moshiach sounds so normal?
Anyhow I would say he is more to the right than center simply because he is less chicken than most mainstream to speak publicly to non lubavitchers and lubavitchers alike on what he believes in… Unlike many who tend to keep it just within lubavitch. I will also say mainstream quiet meshichists don’t Koch in yechi… They either say it or don’t but don’t make a whole thing out of it… If that makes sense.
But I actually think the time for political correctness and keeping the juicy stuff within lubavitch is over- my husband and I were discussing how by hashgacha protis, there’s a new spirit sweeping the world- one against cover up, political correctness and fake news culture, and how its going to help towards getting the world ready for moshiach…. And we’ve been asked many times on this forum to just be completely honest and stop with the awkward dances. So I think he does a great job at explaining things because Yeah the Rebbe wasn’t as “normal” as sechel and his fellow detroit bochurim
would love us all to believe. Or there wouldn’t be these phenomena as yall have pointed out. But the Rebbe always based himself on solid ground. And so do we.December 3, 2018 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1636093
Username: I would advise you look up omniscient in a dictionary.
CS: Please defend Wolf instead of merely complimenting Username (who I agree is doing a fair job. He isn’t meshichist though – you are.)December 3, 2018 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1636094
OK good to see you back DY
So here’s the thing. It’s not one or the other (for sure for mainstream – Yeah there’s the extreme right who think the Rebbe is walking around somewhere in a guf dak – heard of the concept? Or like Rabbeinu HaKadosh after his petira came back and was motzei his family with kiddush, which means he was in a full on physical body because otherwise couldn’t be motzi)
The way mainstream understand it is (from what I learned) based on the sicha of Yaakov lo meis+the hanhoga of the Rebbe towards the Frierdiker Rebbe.
I will explain in another post. I’ve written a nice few responsive posts just now. Would be nice to see them come through before I continue writing. Will be back to explain iyh.December 3, 2018 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1636039
“Oh, and PS. Rabbi Wolf is not an official Shliach.”
Without addressing point by point the rest of what you said in that post, suffice to say that there are different ways to define meshichistim and I was not referring to the extreme right as you defined them… But I found Rabbi wolf’s centre and his name listed on Chabad.org, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Chabad.org only carries official shluchim.December 3, 2018 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1636041
“CS – do you agree with this? From his speech
“This means that the proclamation of “Yechi HaMelech” is the essence of all of Judaism and all of Torah and mitzvos! ”
And from there it’s a small jump to “If you say Yechi, you don’t have to keep the mitzvois” “Just believe in the rebbe, that’s all of yiddishkeit”
… And a new religion is on its way!”
Umm right. Except he said no such thing. I actually listened to the whole recording again today just to make sure. He didn’t even say the phrase yechi hamelech once. So…. How did you pull that one out? Now I’m seriously doubting your credibility.December 3, 2018 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1636111🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
CS – I listened to the first few moments of the video you referenced. When he spoke of all the yom tovim, but then referred to the uber uber yom tov of all yom tovim – 19 kislev I was pretty sickened. So should you be. So is everyone else.December 3, 2018 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1636118ToiParticipant
This is great- username (and Sechel)- I’ve never, ever heard a lubavitcher willing to state unequivocally that the rebbe is not moshiach, and I’m glad we’ve actually found a couple. There are still unanswered questions, the practices/shittos that username tried to defend a couple posts ago (all seeing, all knowing, usually =Hashem), but at least we’ve narrowed the playing field from out and out heresy like wolf (and CS, sorry) to shverre taanos on most of chabad, and their inability to curb the “1%” (which I personally believe is something like 80%) from being vocal loony wackos. I’ll ask some more questions soon.December 3, 2018 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1636141ToiParticipant
@CS- The rebbe’s hanhogo towards the frierdiker rebbe after death is extremely worrisome- his sichas that concern him are scary, and one cannot but wonder if he wasn’t setting it up so he’d be related to like that, too.December 3, 2018 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1636151
Oh. And a further point. I am absolutely Moche CS calling the Rebbe “not normal”. I would protest if anyone else did it, and I protest it from you.December 3, 2018 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1636134
As far as Yaakov Avinu lo mes- the tosfos (if I’m not mistaken) on the gemara questioning how could that be if the Torah itself testifies that Yaakov was not only not alive but even enbalmed and eulogized etc? So what does lo mes mean?
So the Tosfos explains that when chushim chopped off Esavs head, Yaakov avinu opened his eyes and smiled.
But he was not alive! His blood had even been drained etc. How could that be?
So the Rebbe explains that even though the technical terms of life had ceased ie, his heart had stopped beating etc. He was still physically alive to the point that he could open his eyes at will.
Also we see the way the Rebbe treated the Frierdiker Rebbe – on the one hand the Rebbe (the year after the Frierdiker Rebbes histalkus) directed chassidim to bring their panim to the Frierdiker Rebbe and said he’s with us just like before with no difference. The Rebbe even said that if someone says the Frierdiker Rebbe has passed on he is a pere Adam a vilde mentch!!
On the other hand, the Rebbe said kaddish (obviously because that’s halacha), commemorated the yahrtzeit, and visited the ohel very often.
So mainstream treats the Rebbe alive in the above ways. Not in a way that would contradict halacha (obviously). I’m sure if Yaakov Avinus wives were still alive, they’d also be allowed to remarry. But nevertheless he was still alive in a certain sense.
Now if you want to know why the shtick about being alive that’s another story…December 3, 2018 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1636143
the Rebbe wasn’t as “normal”
Did I just hear this from a Lubavitcher??!! I could see Toi or DY making this claim, but a Shlucha?!December 3, 2018 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1636149
umm, this isn’t color war. Hashem doesn’t pick the tzadik of the week to “listen” to. tzadik Gozer means Tzadik gozer. any and all tsaddikim, whether they are in my personal walk of life or not. Do you actually think, as you seem to imply, that Hashem decides which tzadik gets listened to, and you assume it will be “yours”?
Hashem does what He wants.December 3, 2018 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1636150
CS – it was on the Beis Moshiach article that TOI referenced. Google my quotes in quotes, it’ll pop up.
Now are you prepared to defend Wolf? Because he said everything I quoted.
Also – quote from CS
“my husband and I were discussing how by hashgacha protis, there’s a new spirit sweeping the world- one against cover up, political correctness and fake news culture, and how its going to help towards getting the world ready for moshiach…. ”
According to Wolf, the Rebbe sent the spirit for this very purpose. Are you married to him? And if not, do you agree with him?December 3, 2018 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1636158Yserbius123Participant
The nomenclature of “Rebbe” and “Frierdiker” is always so confusing to me. I mean, Rav MM Schneerson ZT”L is really the frierdicker, since there’s no current Rebbe.December 3, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1636162
Anyhow I would say he is more to the right than center simply because he is less chicken than most mainstream to speak publicly to non lubavitchers and lubavitchers alike on what he believes in…
Can you please stop putting words in other people’s mouth.December 3, 2018 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1636166
Username you do have something to learn though. And I’ll demonstrate below.
“9. Rabbi Heller (the Rosh Kollel of Crown Heights).
And tell them Yechi (in secret, even without cameras). I’m not responsible for your hospital bills after this.
These people don’t say Yechi secretly. They hate Meshichstim. If they had the legal power, they would shut down the Meshichist institutions overnight. And Agu”ch (the official overarching group of older Chassidim, who, if anyone is, the governing group of Chabad) is officially anti, and so is Merkos (the official organization that sends on Shlichus). They’re involved in lawsuit after lawsuit trying to shut down Meshichistim. Just try going to Krinsky and Kotlarsky and try saying Yechi. And the younger generation is getting more and more anti over time.”
OK so I’m sure you didn’t know that the same Rabbi Heller you mentioned above, is the one who inspired Rabbi Gershon Avtzon (of cincinatti) to open his Yeshiva (ie an extremely right wing Yeshiva).
Here’s how: when Rabbi Avtzon was in the Rebbe’s kollel, one morning he saw Rabbi Heller throwing out some pamphlets with yechi in them. He went over to Rabbi Heller to discuss it, and came away very inspired. Rabbi Heller told to him
That he is the Rosh Kollel and this is his shitta regarding yechi. So since its his shita its his duty to enforce it, as a matter of Chinuch for the yungeleit and that’s why he’s doing it.
However he told Rabbi Avtzon, if you see things differently, it’s your *chov* to go out and teach it! The important thing is that we give a strong chassidishe chinuch to our children without compromising what we say.
So he did.
Now that should sort your “hate meshichistim” part. And he’s an extreme meshichist.
Now Yes if you walked into those places and said yechi people would be upset that your being annoying and
stuffing your slogans which they don’t necessarily believe and definitely believe should not be publicized, in their faces. But you would hardly get the same visceral reaction if you asked them if the Rebbe could be moshiach.
As far as the younger generation getting more anti I would say that isn’t true. I’m from the younger generation as is my husband and all our friends. Amongst the chassidish people, mainstream is definitely not anti. But we tend to argue less and accept that there are different ways to be a chossid and i can consider you a chossid just as much as myself etc.
Btw just curious (assuming you’re a detroiter) is it true that detroit doesn’t allow their bochurim to learn the nun aleph and nun beis sichos? If so how do they justify that?
Another question: why do you “antis” have such a hard time with the Rebbe being moshiach but I’m sure you have learned countless sichos where the Rebbe said the Frierdiker Rebbe should have techias hameisim and lead us to the Geula?
Just wondering.December 3, 2018 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1636170
Toi the following should have been addressed to username and Co
“@CS- The rebbe’s hanhogo towards the frierdiker rebbe after death is extremely worrisome- his sichas that concern him are scary, and one cannot but wonder if he wasn’t setting it up so he’d be related to like that, too.”December 3, 2018 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1636274
“Oh. And a further point. I am absolutely Moche CS calling the Rebbe “not normal”. I would protest if anyone else did it, and I protest it from you.”
Oh really? So you think that it is fine and normal to say that 770 is the gematria of beis Moshiach? How about the Rebbe saying about moshiach that Menachem hu shmoi? Right pure coincidence. How bout that moshiach is revealed and the seuda of the shor habor is already on the table? How normal does that sound to you? Would you like me to continue
😃? Theres many many more and the funny thing is im sure you know it. So what’s your point?
The Rebbe obviously was normal as in sane. That’s why I put not “normal” in quotes. At the same time, no the Rebbe wasn’t normal as in just a regular Rebbe who said regular divrei Torah and nothing more. That’s the normal I’m protesting. The Rebbe said “I’m crazy about moshiach.” What other Rebbe calls themselves crazy? And yes some things you have to understand the context to get it or it really makes no sense. I only am starting to understand the shor habor quote now myself.December 3, 2018 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1636313
Chossid: “I really think that there is something behind all these comments and complaints that you guys say against chabad, which might be something you’re upset about, or you don’t want it change your mindset, or you’re scared someone might mock you if you hold like this”
From the “What to Say to a Snag” handbook, response no. 143: Tell them that they are just scared to admit the truth..
I believe I’m speaking for more than just myself here. We are not “upset” about anything, and we certainly don’t want to change our mindset because we believe that lubavichers’ beliefs range from mild lunacy and denial of the facts to out and out apikorsus. You are one of the mild ones, but you still talk garbage when it comes to trying to “correct” our errant ways. The part I quoted above is just one proof.
“Rav Shtieman told them they shouldn’t open a separate one, rather they should send their kids to the chabad School. (I heard this from the shliachs son in law).”
The story may be true, I have no idea, but you don’t even realize how ridiculous it is for you to quote a pro-lubavich story like that citing a lubavicher as its source!
“When someone does moifsim and has roach hakodesh”
I believe that Shabsei Zvi sr”y did all that too. It proves nothing. (And just to upset you, I am only using SZ as a rebuttal. Any resemblance to anyone alive or dead is merely coincidental.)
“Now regarding the claims that the friediker Rebbe wrote negative about misnagdim. To my knowledge he only went against the haskalah movement ”
Read the book and you’ll see otherwise. Unless you try to claim that all the misnagdim of Shklov and elsewhere he discusses were closet maskilim…
“By you guys, there is a book that came out from professor Berger, saying our shchita is treif”
He may have written that, I don’t know, but don’t take the statements of one person as a proof to what all of us “snags” believe. For the same token I can claim that you are an Elokist.
“(Sundial we still have to figure out and discuss)”
I consider the sundial story of utmost importance, not something to be merely put aside for a while, as it shows how the Rayatz wrote fiction.December 3, 2018 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1636329
“CS – it was on the Beis Moshiach article that TOI referenced. Google my quotes in quotes, it’ll pop up.
Now are you prepared to defend Wolf? Because he said everything I quoted.”
That’s not what you said in your original post. You said it was from his speech (implying the speech I posted). I will look it up and get back to you. But from what I’ve seen of him, he’s pretty good so yeah. I’ll get back to you.
“Also – quote from CS
“my husband and I were discussing how by hashgacha protis, there’s a new spirit sweeping the world- one against cover up, political correctness and fake news culture, and how its going to help towards getting the world ready for moshiach…. ”
According to Wolf, the Rebbe sent the spirit for this very purpose. Are you married to him? And if not, do you agree with him?”
Yes I agree with him. And he got that from the Rebbe btw who said that we should look out for signs of Geula in the world because the process is unfolding. But I thought that one was my, or should I say my husbands original. No I certainly am not married to him. That would be pretty strange as I’ve posted several times I was born the year of gimmel tammuz.December 3, 2018 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1636427
username: “While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?”
On its own maybe not, but when they then say (and I have personally heard this more than once from meshichisten), “The gemoro says that Mashiach can be from a dead man [Btw this is a distortion of the gemara – see Rashi there], so I can say it’s the rebbe,” that is apikorsus! It’s like saying, “The gemara says you can’t cook on Shabbos so I say you can’t cook on Wednesdays.” Or, “The Torah says לא תבערו אש, so we can’t have hot food on Shabbos” (recognize the last view?).
“They oppose Meshichistim. They condemn meshichistim. And yes, even in private. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they rant against Meshichistim more in private than in public.”
They do, and I’ve heard it. But 99% of the time it’s not because they don’t believe the lubavicher rebbe is Mashiach. It’s because it repels people and makes it difficult for the chabad institutions to attract new faces.
“I have quite a few friends who learned in Detroit. If I’d even get close to mentioning something about Yechi, I’d get a tongue lashing.”
Detroit is the epitome of the “antis” and they are hated by most of the mainstream lubavicher yeshivos, so don’t bring them as a proof to the standard lubavich view.December 3, 2018 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1636428
CS (who has recently revealed her level of “belief” by recommending that we all watch a video by the fourth Stooge): “Rso the reason I didn’t respond further is because i didn’t see anything that warrants a response. Ie if you trust your third grade science experiment knowledge and the grand expertise of your third grade teacher, especially when sun dials are not even in use nowadays [etc etc etc]”
YOU DON’T GET IT! There are things I learnt in third grade that don’t change. Sundials don’t change. Look it up on wikipedia or any other site you want, or get a book from the public library. The story is fiction because the sun doesn’t work that way, and neither do sundials. Bring me one scientific explanation – not from Reuven Wolf! – and I will retract it. But I have a background in science and you can trust me on this one: IT ISN’T POSSIBLE.
If you continue to ignore this I will keep on pointing out that you fit into the mold that we have said about lubavich: believe what you want to believe and ignore any facts that are unpleasant.
I just couldn’t resist quoting one more line of yours in the post that you addressed to me: “you’re being the illogical one here”
Oh, is that why the sundial worked? Now I get it.December 3, 2018 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1636431Sechel HaYasharParticipant
That’s very cheap. Because you don’t like my opinions you don’t get to invoke “Detroiter Bochurim”. Clearly, you’ve never met a Detroiter, plus, I never learned in Detroit a day in my life.
And, how dare you call the Rebbe not normal? Because you choose to twist his words, and then decide it’s not normal, and then not normal becomes a positive thing?December 3, 2018 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1636432
CS (who doesn’t trust anything I learned in third grade): “It seems every community trusts their shochtim more, not just lubavitch.”
Yes, a lot of people are like that. But with lubavicher shechitah the rule is that our shochtim are yirei shamayim because they learn chassidus, so the fact that some of them go to places that no frum Yid should go to etc (I don’t want to elaborate in detail, but I KNOW facts) is irrelevant. The other shochtim don’t learn chassidus so they have less yiras shamayim.December 3, 2018 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1636430
Or like Rabbeinu HaKadosh after his petira came back and was motzei his family with kiddush, which means he was in a full on physical body because otherwise couldn’t be motzi)
So can you find me a source that this is happening now? You won’t be able to, because since 27 Adar 1 5752, there were no Sichos. So obviously there’s no explicit “this is how you should behave now”, and there were no revelations to Elter Chassidim (who were raui to receive Ruach HaKodesh), we have no reason to assume that that’s happening.
The only thing we have is a Tzavaah, Aguch’s decisions, and the Rebbe’s behavior after 5710, where the Rebbe said Kaddish for the Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbe instituted the Minhagei Yartzeit for the Frierdiker Rebbe. There was never a Shvil for the Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbe used the title “Ziya” (which is the conventional title in Lubavitch to a Rebbe who passed away) on every single sefer of the Frierdiker Rebbe and in every Maamar where he referenced the Frierdiker Rebbe.
The problem is when people cherry-pick what the Rebbe said once, and take that over something that the Rebbe said hundreds of times. And the problem comes from Shelo Shimshu Kol Tzorchan (And that Shimush has to come from the right person. You know the famous line, that “Eisav also had a Rov”). When you learn Kabbalah, actually, even when you learn Gemara, you absolutely need Shimush to not mess up. For example, if you learn the second chapter of Chagiga literally, you’re a Kofer. But the Gemara’s not Kefira, you just took it wrong.
Another example of what I’ve read (I saw an essay by someone, I think it’s Reb Yoel Kahn) is that the Rebbe Rashab wrote in the first Maamar in 5659 the importance of davening out loud, and how Kol MeOrer Hakavanah. So someone would read that, and say “OK. There’s this clear Maamar which says that the louder you daven, the better” and would scream through davening. But yet, somehow, that never became a Lubavitch minhag. And not even by the Hamon Am, but by the great Mashpiyim. And the reason is that they had enough Shimush to know when the Rebbe means something literally, and when the Rebbe means something spiritually.
And this Shimush comes from being around Elter Chossidim and Rabbonim, and actually being Mekabel from them. And Aguch, the official group of Luabvitch Elter Chossidim decided right after 3 Tammuz that Lubavitch is Anti.December 3, 2018 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1636434
CS: “you think the Rebbe saying 770 is the gematria of beis moshiach sounds so normal?”
You weren’t addressing me, but I’ll reply anyway. No. It’s definitely not normal. Unless you’re very childish and have an agenda to push which is to convince others that you are the Mashiach.
Btw is the term “beis mashiach” found anywhere other than from the talks of the most recent lubavicher rebbe? I haven’t searched, but I’m guessing that it was invented just to match the gematria. Disclaimer: I may be wrong, and if I am I will retract.December 3, 2018 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1636437
CS: “But the Rebbe always based himself on solid ground.”
(I just HAVE to say this line. It’s too good to resist. My apologies in advance):
That’s exactly what Korach said about his views.December 3, 2018 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #1636439
CS to YR: ““This means that the proclamation of “Yechi HaMelech” is the essence of all of Judaism and all of Torah and mitzvos! ”
Umm right. Except he said no such thing. I actually listened to the whole recording again today just to make sure. He didn’t even say the phrase yechi hamelech once. So…. How did you pull that one out? Now I’m seriously doubting your credibility.”
I didn’t listen to his speech but I read the above in the article about his speech in Beis Mashiach.December 3, 2018 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1636442
YR I read the article. Yknow what? I’ll let him explain himself. Which he will do very nicely if you actually watch the video I was referring to. Yeah you’ll probably think it got lost above. I know it’s a long thread. So here’s it again on YouTube: Rabbi wolf: signs of moshiach (the one with the Rebbe picture). If you have further questions after that, I’ll be happy to take them.
Btw I think this is the longest thread we’ve had so far. Yasher koach everyone. I feel like I’m understanding people here more and more.December 3, 2018 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1636443
Toi: “I’ve never, ever heard a lubavitcher willing to state unequivocally that the rebbe is not moshiach, and I’m glad we’ve actually found a couple. There are still unanswered questions”
Did they actually say that or did they merely argue with the looneys who say he is still alive?December 3, 2018 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1636444
CS – you misunderstood me – I was asking of you thought THE REBBE sent the spirit, or if it was merely Hashem. There’s no Tzadik gozer on something like this.December 3, 2018 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1636449
CS: “But I thought that one was my, or should I say my husbands original. No I certainly am not married to him.”
Not married to your husband?!
(I know. I know.)December 3, 2018 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1636454Non PoliticalParticipant
Why are you so vehemently against Rabbi Dr. Berger? If anything he was on your side. Did you even read his book? He was trying to rally RCA and Aguda Rabbonim to publicly support people like you and Username and your Rebbonim from the get go and prevent (or at least minimize) the current train wreck.December 3, 2018 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1636460Non PoliticalParticipant
If NO Gedolim outside of you circle agree with
1) your beliefs and practices (the ones under discussion)
2) you interpretation of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teachings and classic sources to justify the above
Don’t you think that per your own standards it is time to re-evaluate?
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