The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1639138

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    CS- do you agree with my lightswitch moshol? And even if not, do you agree that there are elements in Chabad who do?

    #1639279

    K-cup
    Participant

    How does the previous rebbe explain the “sundial story”? What is it? I found a different versions

    #1639219

    Howzat
    Participant

    I have been following both threads by CS from the start.

    As an Australian I must admit there are things that Lubavitch do which are great i.e. I’ve used there Chabad centers during some of my stop overs in the Asian region.
    BUT WARNING!! The situation is out of control. The amount of frei kids coming out of their school (that’s why Mr. Kornhauser has started a new cheider) is appalling and anyone who thinks their Chassidus is fine and I’m gonna join them, take this as a warning! It’s true that in everyplace anything can happen, and you need tons of Teffilos and Siyata Dishmaya but joining Lubavitch isn’t doing hishtadlus on your behalf to bring up frum normal Yidden. If you would like examples, I’ll give them (I hope the mods won’t delete some of them as some are borderline tzniyus and disgusting)

    Secondly, after seeing RSO nagging about the Sundial story I went and checked it up myself and yes it doesn’t make sense. If you say the suns rays were blocked by some hilltop far away in the distance that they goyish professors couldn’t see and only the Baal HaTanya could figure it out, then maybe the shade in my backyard in Melbourne is from the Himalayas in Asia. Anyone on this forum can understand that even though there may be huge, massive mountains in their country etc., it is not affecting their shade unless they live in the vicinity of it and they can view it from their position. It does affect the weather but not shade and a sundial works on shade!

    #1639306

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @howzat,
    Lubavitch in Australia is absolutely not indicative of Lubavitch in other places, the Australian community is quite far away, and very behind in the ways of Lubavitch in the US and Israel.
    And, as you say, they did open a new Cheder, under the auspices of the Head Shliach Rabbi Aaron Serebryanski, may he have a Refua Shleima.

    I say this not as a last resort defense, but as someone who intimately knows the community you are speaking of.

    Secondly, surely you know that the Chabad Centers in Asia and around the world were not created to serve you, a frum You with a hot koshere meal. For this, the Rebbe didn’t send his best and brightest to distant Bangkok or Japan. They are there for the Yid who otherwise won’t be eating Kosher food, and who is visiting Asia for reasons other than his stopover to Europe or Israel from Australia.

    #1639358

    Chossid
    Participant

    Rso you seem to get offended from Lubavitche, everything they do or hold is wrong, just because you weren’t brought up this way. The only thing you say we have zechusim is when you get some kosher food in the middle of nowhere. (Because in the end of the day it’s your life and tummy).

    It seems like your little brain is smarter then the whole Lubavitche and the 7 Rebbeim. You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.

    Yes just because Lubavitche happens to be a very successful through out the world, doesn’t mean you have to find all the problems to put them down and a say all the loshen horoah and moitzi Shem rah.

    (By the nachinal menorah Rabbi Shem tov was holding the torch together with him.)

    We all have problems that we have to fix, but you for some reason are looking to find them.

    #1639368

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel, we know, and we appreciate what chabad does.

    But I’m not sure why parts of Chabad have this hangup about helping other frum yidden. I understand it’s not the primary purpose, but when you do, do it with a smile, instead of complaining.

    I for one always leave a big donation for every nonmeshichist chabad house I stay at. But I still preferred to be treated as a “special guest” than “unwanted frummie”.

    (BTW, I have to pint out to every nonchabadnik reading this thread – Chabad houses recieve no special funding from any organiztion. All fund must be raised by the shliach himself. So if you use their services, and your sure the money will go towards making people frum (as opposed to making people believe in a false messiah) ALWAYS leave a large donation! The shliach and his family needs it!

    #1639371

    CS
    Participant

    Rso I can respond to your points 123 post but don’t know if anyone really wants one. I think it’s pretty clear that you don’t regard the Rebbe as a tzadik and pulling apart and responding to that post wouldn’t make a whit of a difference to you (as anything a lubavitcher says or writes is automatically suspect in your eyes.)

    Obviously I do regard my Rebbe as a tzadik and could pull apart that post, but don’t want to if it’s just a waste of time.

    As far as “Lubavitchers believe what they want and don’t let the facts get in the way ” aside from the fact that sundials are not in use today etc and you don’t know the topography of the given place etc.

    Aside from that, yes science can and does err all the time. It is not absolute. Even by sciences standards everything is a certain percentage of likelihood and there is no 100%. Whereas Torah and Tzaddikim are 100% true.

    You remind me of a conversation I had with my frum science teacher in high school. I once asked her how she would explain that mitzvah 97 in Sefer hamitzvos (if I’m not mistaken with the number) is that we are not allowed to eat bugs that do not derive from a male and female, but derive from rotting food.

    She saw it as the Rambams mistake or lack of scientific knowledge. I would see it as the exact opposite: that current scientific thought has shown the eggs etc but they don’t yet know that species can derive from rotting…. And if I was in the science field, I would focus my research on that too make an easy Nobel prize…

    A few years ago, I went to a science museum and one of the most recent science prizes was awarded to a scientist who proved why pregnant women don’t topple over.

    I was amused thinking if only that progressive scientist knew that Rashi had written that up years ago… I couldve won the prize myself knowing rashi.

    #1639372

    CS
    Participant

    Science post 2:
    Now just to add there were times when the chachamim and Rabbonim did and do Base their psakim on doctors research instead of their own knowledge of science directly from Torah, and in that case, as the science changes so can the psak. Not negating that.

    And there are obvious things that do seem to contradict sometimes and do need to be explained.

    For example I asked a lubavitcher scientist to e explain how could it be that the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya (and he quotes a posuk there) that the right ventricle has no blood when it is clearly evident that it does – not as an abstract scientific theory etc. but we see it all the time as doctors do open heart surgery etc so its not made up?

    So in that case he gave a satisfactory answer- that the blood referred to in the Posuk and discussed by the Alter Rebbe was oxygenated blood – as the Alter Rebbe was discussing lifeblood that gives life to the body. And that is only in the left ventricle whereas the right ventricle contains deoxygenated blood.

    But the rule of thumb for any Jew should be that Torah is the absolute truth and if science contradicts, than its either wrong or the contradiction is in fact a misunderstanding.

    #1639373

    CS
    Participant

    YR already fully answered your question check page 21

    #1639374

    CS
    Participant

    Howzat I could answer your post based on what I know from Australian friends but since it seems sechel knows the place personally, I’ll leave it to him.

    #1639430

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Aderabe, CS, please say what you have heard from your Australian friends, I don’t know everything.

    YR, I have no hangups about helping frum people, I have done so with much pleasure in various places around the world, and all Shluchim I know have done the same. I just don’t like it when people give this as an example of why they like or appreciate Chabad, because they found food in Bangkok or Bangalore, we’re not there for that.

    #1639500

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS

    Once again you have written that only the Rebbe exerted himself for all yidden whereis other Rabbonim are merely taking care of their own kahillos. You use this to prop up the nossi hador concept.

    #1639485

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ CS
    Me: “The point is that outside of your stream of Lubavitch no Rabbonim (including Chabbad ones) endorse what you guys do / believe. Also (and more importantly) , none of the Rebbonim in your circle are recognized as authoritative by any Torah Authority outside.”

    You: “Both false. Or shall I say the former is incorrect as the majority of respected lubavitcher Rabbonim, if not very many (haven’t done an actual poll) hold like me.

    Names please

    #1639466

    RSo
    Participant

    Chosid: ” You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”

    ???

    “Yes just because Lubavitche happens to be a very successful through out the world, doesn’t mean you have to find all the problems to put them down and a say all the loshen horoah and moitzi Shem rah.”

    That’s not why I say all the bad things about them, and your response is typical of lubavich going on the attack instead of addressing the issues. I have said a number of times that lubavich does fantastic things in the area of Ahavas Yisroel, but their hashkofos are really badly messed up. Their chauvinism, which btw is totally misplaced, their claims to have the Mashiach when they are lacking so much tznius and derech eretz, are a joke, and it is that type of activity that I continue to attack.

    (By the nachinal menorah Rabbi Shem tov was holding the torch together with him.)”

    Yes, you’re right there and I was wrong. However, it is very misleading and I don’t think it should be done that way.

    #1639473

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: ” I think it’s pretty clear that you don’t regard the Rebbe as a tzadik and pulling apart and responding to that post wouldn’t make a whit of a difference to you”

    If you mean, your attempt to pull it apart and rebut, you are 100% correct, as your attempts in that area so far have not convinced any of the posters, including those who have dropped out.

    “As far as “Lubavitchers believe what they want and don’t let the facts get in the way ” aside from the fact that sundials are not in use today etc and you don’t know the topography of the given place etc.”

    You’re doing it again. Topography has NOTHING to do with it. The story is ridiculous and you are making yourself look even more ridiculous every time you try to justify it. Note, none of the other lubavichers in the forum have argued with me. They don’t understand the story, they probably wouldn’t like to admit that it’s fiction, so they just don’t say anything. But you keep going on about sundials being out of use and who knows what other garbage which just makes you appear really stupid. Sorry, but there isn’t any other word that expresses it correctly. By doing so you make not only yourself look stupid but lubavich too.

    “Aside from that, yes science can and does err all the time. It is not absolute. Even by sciences standards everything is a certain percentage of likelihood and there is no 100%. Whereas Torah and Tzaddikim are 100% true.”

    Yes. Science can and does err. But this story is fiction.

    My advice: say something like, “You have a good point, and I can’t answer your question,” and leave it at that. Cut your losses.

    #1639476

    CS
    Participant

    YR
    “But I’m not sure why parts of Chabad have this hangup about helping other frum yidden. I understand it’s not the primary purpose, but when you do, do it with a smile, instead of complaining.”

    Its not about frum vs frum. When a frum Jew needs Chabad and the shluchim can help they are so happy to help.

    Its just that shluchim are people too and as people they have limited energy and finances and it rankles to be taken advantage of. So when you have tourist after frum tourist and businessman after frum businessman visiting your Chabad house expecting hot kosher meals with many not bothering to leave a donation it creates a dilemma which shouldn’t need to be there. And that dilemma can create resentment if not addressed.

    The dilemma is that as shluchim how can you turn away a fellow yid and not give him a hot kosher meal when you can, and there’s nowhere else for him to get it?

    On the other hand, the hot kosher meal doesn’t come from thin air. Somebody had to make it and pay for it. In many cases the shlucha herself. And she also in many cases just had a baby or is pregnant etc. to compound the energy aspect.

    So yeah, when you have these tourists and business people come in expecting a hot meal, on a constant basis, it gets very draining. It rankles even more when many don’t leave a donation and they spend on every other aspect of their trip from the airfare to the hotel to the tourist sites but are expecting free hot meals for the duration of their stay. (And of course this is not the case of an emergency- were taking about taking advantage of shluchim because you can get away with not paying even though you pay for everything else…)

    At least with the not yet frum you can attribute their lack of support and appreciation to their lack of Torah knowledge and education… And as shluchim your job is to help them develop that. The community in turn reciprocates by supporting the shluchim through donations.

    Another point – in these tourist spots its pretty much nonstop at least during the seasons. It’s not like classic hachnosas orchim where the scale of it depends on how much you have to give financially, and also energy wise (like right after a baby etc)

    However the best way to go about solving the dilemma is by being proactive. There are shluchim where a frum guest is a rare occasion and they’re delighted to host. There are others in the tourist spots who run restaurants so that tourists can eat hot kosher food and pay for it. There may be others who don’t feel resentful because their visitors are by and large appreciative people who don’t take advantage of them. Etc.

    #1639480

    CS
    Participant

    From what I understand from my aussie friends which is why the situation may not be ideal (if you look at it that way) is due to two components- the majority of the community isn’t very chassidish- in fact many of then were not originally lubavitcher families necessarily, AND that many non frum people send to the school.

    So this means the kids have a very high level of exposure as all the things typical non frum kids or teens do, about 50% of their classmates are doing and it creates peer pressure for the can go either way kind of kids.

    The flip side is that there are many kids who graduate from not frum homes and they themselves are frum because of the chinuch they got.

    Now I know some shluchims kids from there who are extremely chassidish because their homes were, so they did not get negatively influenced by their classmates and are very much lamplighters for others.

    However kids coming from not such strong homes, where they have TV and watch movies etc are very much at risk in such an environment. But I haven’t been there personally and don’t know much else such as percentages of any of the above. I also didn’t know about the new school, but would assume it’s for only frum kids so they don’t lose out.

    #1639534

    RSo
    Participant

    CS, careful you don’t have an attack here because you’re going to be very surprised at what I’m about to say:

    You’re explanation about what rankles chabad representatives in their chabad houses made perfect sense! I have absolutely no criticism to level at it!

    (And I didn’t even mention a sundial once :). Oops. Now I did.)

    #1639604

    Chossid
    Participant

    @,rso “But you keep going on about sundials being out of use and who knows what other garbage which just makes you appear really stupid. Sorry, but there isn’t any other word that expresses it correctly. By doing so you make not only yourself look stupid but lubavich too.”

    The only thing I stupid is that you say that a Rebbes sforim are fiction based on your 3rd grade science class. Is totally outrageous.
    Now that doesn’t mean that your not allowed to have questions, but saying right away that it’s all fiction based on your little brain, is really out of place. Did any gadol gold that? Or science master?

    #1639605

    Chossid
    Participant

    Chosid: ” You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”

    ???

    You still didn’t tell me which GADOL said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.

    #1639607

    Chossid
    Participant

    That’s not why I say all the bad things about them, and your response is typical of lubavich going on the attack instead of addressing the issues. I have said a number of times that lubavich does fantastic things in the area of Ahavas Yisroel, but their hashkofos are really badly messed up. Their chauvinism, which btw is totally misplaced, their claims to have the Mashiach when they are lacking so much tznius and derech eretz, are a joke, and it is that type of activity that I continue to attack.

    Don’t you think theee is something behind there ahavas Yisrael thats getting them to go in this crazy places, with so many challenges, chinuch for there kids, money, no family around them to help, no suda that they don’t have guest, which causes that they can’t give the right amount of attention to there kids, etc. etc. Let me tell you a little secret, it’s there hashkofa that kepps them going.

    Have you ever considered that maybe you hashkofa is messed up? Just wondering.

    Why does the fact that they are lacking in tzius, make that everything else is wrong? Like I have said before we all have yetzer horah, yes Lubavitcher have yetzer horahs, its not an excuse, rather a fact, some people have hard time not saying loshen horoah and moitzi Shem, and some in other places, and we are all trying to over come it. We are not perfect.

    #1639625

    Chossid
    Participant

    Me: And to the non Jews explain to them the seven noahide laws.”

    Rso: The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
    If you can please explain why.

    #1639668

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Chosid,

    You’re funny

    In your first post (out of these three) you said gold instead of hold
    The only thing I stupid (Probably meant that is)

    So to knock someone because of a mistake that you knew anyways what he was saying is utterly idiotic

    #1639660

    RSo
    Participant

    Chosid: “The only thing I stupid is that you say that a Rebbes sforim are fiction based on your 3rd grade science class. Is totally outrageous. Now that doesn’t mean that your not allowed to have questions, but saying right away that it’s all fiction based on your little brain, is really out of place. Did any gadol gold that? Or science master?”

    Gee, what’s with “third grade” that really gets you so upset. The point I made was that I first learned about sundials in third grade, not that my understanding of them is only what I learned in third grade. I have since read about sundials numerous times, even after finishing fourth grade!

    Get this straight: A sundial can’t be affected the way it says in the story. I challenge you to get any frum, not frum or lehavdil goyishe scientist to explain how the story works. You won’t find anyone who isn’t a lubavicher or drunk (or more likely, both) who will say the story makes sense. Therefore, the story is untrue.

    Now, either the Rayatz also didn’t have a clue or he was writing fiction. You choose which one of the two I should believe because there is no third option. The size of my brain, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.

    #1639661

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid: “You still didn’t tell me which GADOL said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”

    I don’t know which statement of mine you are referring to, but there are MANY Litvishe gedolim who spoke out openly against your rebbe, and there are also a number of chassidishe rebbes who did.

    #1639663

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid: “Don’t you think theee is something behind there ahavas Yisrael thats getting them to go in this crazy places…”

    I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.
    What about all the fights when shlichim open up chabad houses that encroach on other shlichim’s territories? Is that a manifestation of Ahavas Yisrael?
    What about the fights with the “mushrooms” (I’ll let you explain what I am referring to if you feel like it.) If these people are doing the same rebbe’s work that the official shlichim are doing, why are they considered out of line and “mushrooms”?

    Chossid: “Have you ever considered that maybe you hashkofa is messed up? Just wondering.”

    Yes, in fact I often do. And that’s why I have my hashkafos checked regularly during my discussions with erliche talmidei chachomim who are yirei Shamayim, who are far better than me, and who have fundamental beliefs that are accepted across the spectrum of the Torah world, unlike the hashkofos of almost all lubavichers. On the other hand, if you mean do I open an Igros at random to see whether I’m right or not, then the answer is no.

    Chossid: “Why does the fact that they are lacking in tzius, make that everything else is wrong?”

    That’s a fair question but I have an honest answer. Kedushah is a prerequisite of chassidus and yiras Shamayim. That is what ALL other groups of chassidim were mekabel from the Baal Shem. (It’s possible that lubavich was also mekabel that but somewhere along the line it seems to have been forgotten or just not mentioned.) As a number of us have said in the past, a lack of tznius must mean a lack of kedushah. There is no other way of interpreting it. Therefore, if there is a lack of tznius in lubavich – and I’m not just referring to dress, I’m also referring to mixing of the genders and improper interaction between them in speech and manner, as I’ve also pointed out before – there must be a distinct lack of kedusha. You yourself have admitted that tznius is a problem. So you can’t expect us to accept that lubavich is anywhere near the top of the kedushah pyramid and that we should therefore take your hashkofos in chassidus seriously.

    The last paragraph, by the way, was not written vindictively or with any ulterior motive of winning an argument and silencing you or anyone else. It is an honest explanation of why I and others look down on lubavich based on their levels of tznius.

    #1639664

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid: “Rso: The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
    If you can please explain why.”

    There is no inyan of arvus in encouraging goyim to keep their mitzvos. Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus. See Chullin bottom of 92a and top of 92b.

    Also, it means that when trying to encourage the keeping of the sheva mitzvos more bochurim come in contact with goyim and goyishe values. It’s bad enough when they come in contact with the values that non-frum Yidden have, but this can be even more dangerous.

    Furthermore, it is an innovation that is ridiculous because it leads to distorting the Torah. Just look at the “Seven Mitzvos for Sevtnty Nations” cards and pamphlets that are distributed which contain the “mitzvah” of being kind to animals.(Some actually say that the mitzvah is not to eat the limb of a live animal, but the explanation they give below that is to be kind to animals.)
    The mitzvah is not to eat eiver min hachai, and that has nothing to do with being kind to animals. If a goy will put an animal to sleep, amputate its leg, and then kill it while it is still asleep, he will be a lot kinder to the animal than when he kills it by shooting it in a forest. But in the former case the leg is eiver min hachai while in the latter it is muttar lechatchillah.

    I stand by what I wrote that it is a meshigass, and I have NEVER heard a non-lubavicher of any stripe think differently.

    #1639853

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    BTW, There are tzfatis who give out 7 mitzvos card but add an eighth – the miztvah to believe the Rebbe’s Moshiach. Pictures were posted years ago on the chabadtalk forum.

    You can find a similar mindset at the Honk4Joy organization, which encourages NON-JEWS to be mekabel the Rebbe’s messiahship (their words not mine).

    This is the path Chabad is heading down if they don’t do something soon.

    #1639947

    Non Political
    Participant

    I was gonna respond to chossid but RSo pretty much nailed it.

    CS, I really would like some names. You know, of rabbanim who are considered gedolim by anyone outside your circle who agree with you guys. You said there where many, please share.

    Also, still kinda scratching my head in wonderment regarding your contention that only the last Lubavitcher Rebbe did for all of Klal Yisroel whereis the the Gedolim only did for their respective kahilos.

    #1639950

    CS
    Participant

    YR am eighth mitzvah? I find that hard to believe… Maybe they add yechi on the bottom or a line about the Rebbe being moshiach (tzfatis are the epitome of extreme right). But I really don’t believe they list it as a mitzvah. If there was such a picture I would think it was a one time mistaken print.

    #1639951

    kaiserW
    Participant

    @rso
    “I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.”

    Interesting point. Would you hold the same of the thousands of yidden learning in kollel (in USA and EY)?
    They have strong societal pressure, and get (some sort of) paycheck from it?

    How about the melamdim, ram”im, roshei yeshivos?

    #1639952

    CS
    Participant

    Np:
    “Once again you have written that only the Rebbe exerted himself for all yidden whereis other Rabbonim are merely taking care of their own kahillos. You use this to prop up the nossi hador concept.”

    Not exactly. I wrote the Rebbe *took responsibility*
    for all yidden on a scale not seen by others who focus on the needs of their community. If I’m wrong, simply list another leader of klal Yisrael today who sends out his best and brightest for life to help the frum, not yet frum, and opens institutions to help those who fight him.

    #1639954

    CS
    Participant

    Np:
    Me:“Both false. Or shall I say the former is incorrect as the majority of respected lubavitcher Rabbonim, if not very many (haven’t done an actual poll) hold like me.”

    You: “Names please”

    Reasonable request but here’s my problem. Mainstream lubavitch are not out there to get everyone to hold of the Rebbe as moshiach. So the Rabbonim may not appreciate their names posted here as it isn’t a shita they necessarily wish publicised. I was thinking that alternatively I can list the few lubavitcher Rabbonim who hold that the Rebbe is unlikely to be moshiach, but then I realized I don’t know of any…. I suppose username or sechel can supply that information if it exists.

    Note that you can call any lubavitcher Rav and ask about the Rebbe being moshiach. Most may deflect or downplay the question because it isn’t our focus, but I don’t know of any who will say outright that they do not think the Rebbe will be moshiach. A very respected Mashpia I know of (and respected by all communities of where he lives not just lubavitch,) when asked about the Rebbe being moshiach, simply replies, “Do you have a better candidate?”

    #1639956

    kaiserW
    Participant

    @rso
    “There is no inyan of arvus in encouraging goyim to keep their mitzvos. ”

    רמב”ם הל’ מלכים פ”ח
    וְכֵן צִוָּה משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִפִּי הַגְּבוּרָה לָכֹף אֶת כָּל בָּאֵי הָעוֹלָם לְקַבֵּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁנִּצְטַוּוּ בְּנֵי נֹחַ

    The Rebbe based his campaign on this Rambam. Yes, obviously, there are different opinion and there are those who disagree with the Rebbe. But to call ‘stam mishigass’ (instead of perhaps ‘a minority opinion or the like) shows a lack of knowledge on your part.

    P.S. The Rebbe did not want it done with cards and the like. There are letters (or more accurately מענות) of the Rebbe to that effect. Additionally, I am almost positive that it was not meant for bochurim but rather those who have contact with non-Jews either way

    #1639965

    CS
    Participant

    For Np, neville, Sam and others I thought you may find the following Rashi quite interesting as you have been asking on the topic…

    Rashi on 2nd to last posuk of Daniel:

    “יבאַשְׁרֵ֥י הַֽמְחַכֶּ֖ה וְיַגִּ֑יעַ לְיָמִ֕ים אֶ֕לֶף שְׁלֹ֥שׁ מֵא֖וֹת שְׁלֹשִׁ֥ים וַֽחֲמִשָּֽׁה:
    Fortunate is he who waits etc.: Forty five years are added to the above number, for our Moshiach is destined to be hidden after he is revealed and to be revealed again…”

    Just because it seems no one here has heard of the concept in classic Jewish sources. Also check out the remainder of the mefarshim on the page who explain how Daniel couldn’t figure out how the end of days calculation etc would work out, but as it comes, the regular yidden will figure it out.

    #1639984

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Classic Chabad reading comprehiension skills….

    Hidden does not mean DEAD.

    (BTW, the rambam before he says nehrag writes “Im lo Asa Kol zeh” I have never seen a lubavitcher manage to answer up this part of the rambam, instead amny dishonestly edit it out.)

    #1639985

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    CS – Please tell us how the Rebbe fits with the rambam since you are demonstrating classic chabad reading comprehension skills. The rambam does not paskin like the medrash in daniel, and the Rebbe clearly said the halacha is like the rambam.

    #1640014

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Kaiser answered the questions about Sheva Mitzvos well, if you learn the Rebbes Sichos about it, and see various Maanos, it’s clear the Rebbe never intended for people to waltz down the street accosting eino yehudim at random and shoving cards in their face, rather, as the Rebbe explicitly said, those who have day to day contact with non Jews in their environment, must try teach them about their 7 general Mitzvos. (There are far more than 7, seven are the general Mitzvos, but many more branch out of them. I’ll add Mekoros when I get a chance).

    As far as Chabad Rabbonim and their opinions whether or not the Rebbe Zy”a will be Moshiach, I’d venture to say that majority aren’t convinced of that, but don’t necessarily make their opinions public. Rabbi Berel Levin wrote much about this, and he came to the conclusion that according to Rambam and the Rebbes own Sichos, the Rebbe cannot be Moshiach. Rabbi Immanuel Schochet A”H stated publicly that it’s highly unlikely for the Rebbe to be Moshiach. I have many other names at the tip of my fingers, but I hesitate to name people who are among the living if they haven’t publicly stated or written so.

    #1640019

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel – Why “highly unlikely”? What wrong with plain clear-cut no?

    And if most chabadniks hold no, why is Rabbi Sofer considered mechutz lemachene?

    #1640022

    CS
    Participant

    YR I would like to, but I have two questions myself on the Rambam and would like to look it up first. I will respond on that when I get the answers to my own questions, assuming the thread is still around. Alternatively, maybe milhouse, kaiserw or others will answer you satisfactorily instead 🙂

    #1640021

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel – not an attack – just curious:

    How much people whose signatures appear in the infamous psak din have actually signed it? I suspect many of them are forgeries.

    Sechel, am I right?

    #1640029

    Chossid
    Participant

    רבי יהודה אומר אלו שלשים צדיקי אומות העולם שאומות העולם מתקיימים עליהם עולא אמר אלו שלשים מצות שקבלו עליהם בני נח ואין מקיימין אלא שלשה אחת
    Rabbi Yehuda says: These are the thirty righteous individuals among the nations of the world, in whose merit the nations of the world continue to exist. Ulla says: These are the thirty mitzvot that the descendants of Noah initially accepted upon themselves; but they fulfill only three of them. One of these three mitzvot is

    Rso please explain how you see from the Gemorah you quoted that “Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus” I see that since they are ONLY keeping 3 and not ALL is a reason that we are in golus.
    Please correct me if I’m wrong

    #1640050

    RSo
    Participant

    kaiserW: “Interesting point. Would you hold the same of the thousands of yidden learning in kollel (in USA and EY)?They have strong societal pressure, and get (some sort of) paycheck from it?
    How about the melamdim, ram”im, roshei yeshivos?”

    100%. We are all no less human than the lubavichers I am criticizing, and we all have our social pressures and inner issues. Just because we may do the right thing and choose the right lifestyle it doesn’t mean that we are doing it for the right reason.

    Now obviously it’s better to live a life according to the rules even if it’s not lesheim Shamayim than to live a life that goes against the rules. But it’s another thing again to claim that we are doing it lesheim Shamayim.

    The same is true of the chabad houses. To say that they have altruistic motives is being naive, but to say that what they do is very often good is still true. Moreover, once other Yidden benefit from them – whether it’s frum Yidden getting a kosher meal, or non-frum Yidden finding out it is Chanukah – it is automatically a commendable achievement.

    #1640052

    CS
    Participant

    YR and NP I realise my previous post is a bit of a cop out if no one else answers satisfactorily so here’s what I can do. After chanuka iyh, if you’d like, I can call a well respected mainstream Rav who told a family member of mine to teach his family that the Rebbe is moshiach (although he also said that he doesn’t hold of the slogan yechi.) I’ll ask him to please explain that to me according to Rambam etc. And then I can report back. Lmk if this would be helpful. And any specific questions on Rambam I should ask would also be helpful.

    #1640071

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “If I’m wrong, simply list another leader of klal Yisrael today who sends out his best and brightest for life to help the frum, not yet frum, and opens institutions to help those who fight him.”

    Aside from the claim I have already made earlier that your rebbe’s kavonah in this was to draw attention to himself and to claim the leadership that you have attributed to him, there is another problem. Some of “his best and brightest” have gone off because of being influenced the not yet frum, and Rachmono litzlan MANY lubavich families have kids who have gone off the derech for the same reason. There is clearly a far greater percentage of lubavich kids from frum homes who have gone off than there are in other chassidic groups. Hashem yeracheim!

    Your rebbe did not have the long-range view that other rebbes had, and lubavich is suffering from it today. (See my earlier post about tznius.)

    One further point. Claiming to care about everybody, and being the only one making a big PR deal about it does not show that he is the only one who really cared.
    The Satmarer Rebbe also cared about everybody, which is why he tried to spread his shitah about Zionism all over. He too was concerned that there were Yidden in the far reaches of the world who were, in his view, being accomplices to avodah zoroh. Now you and I don’t agree with that, but we would surely agree that if, say, voting in the Israeli elections is indeed an act of avizraihu d’avodah zoroh, working to prevent it is probably more important than to get someone to put on tefillin. So he cared just as much as your rebbe did.

    #1640073

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    CS – I would like that. Please include the ravs name if you can.

    Also ask him why death doesn’t remove a chazakah of mashiach, even though it removes every other chazakah in shas.

    #1640074

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “A very respected Mashpia I know of (and respected by all communities of where he lives not just lubavitch,) when asked about the Rebbe being moshiach, simply replies, “Do you have a better candidate?””

    This has been a standard lubavich rejoinder for many years. Even before the (alleged) passing of the lubavicher rebbe.

    Personally, I know literally hundreds of better candidates that I can name (but won’t here for a number of reasons). They are yirei Hashem, exceptional talmidie chachomim, have limitless ahavas Yisrael without publicizing it, and they have two advantages over the lubavicher rebbe: 1. they do not try to promote themselves, and 2. they don’t put people in spiritual danger by misleading them or allowing them to be influenced badly.

    Oh yeah. There is a third advantage: 3. they are alive!

    #1640082

    RSo
    Participant

    kasierW you didn’t give the full quote of the Rambam:

    וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח, וכל מי שלא יקבל יהרג

    This is not shayah nowadays.

    You’re claim that the main thrust of the campaign is for people who deal with goyim anyway is interesting. I wonder whether that is the accepted view.

    But your claim that your rebbe gave guidelines, and that the cards calling “cruelty to animals’ one of the mitzvos are not “officially” endorsed, is part of the problem.

    There is no leadership in lubavich because your rebbe unfortunately didn’t have kids and he didn’t designate a successor. So today it’s איש כל הישר בעיניו יעשה with all opinions claiming that they have the support of the rebbe. As I just recently posted, it shows a lack of long-range thinking.

    #1640083

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “Fortunate is he who waits etc.: Forty five years are added to the above number, for our Moshiach is destined to be hidden after he is revealed and to be revealed again…””

    The one you believe to be mashiach was never revealed because he isn’t!

    I’m sort of disappointed that you haven’t trotted out all the old “proofs” that he is mashiach by misquoting and misinterpreting the sources. You know what I mean. Like, “A king from the House of Dovid”. Well the rebbe was a king, and he was from the house of Dovid because he told us so…

    #1640085

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid: “Rso please explain how you see from the Gemorah you quoted that “Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus” I see that since they are ONLY keeping 3 and not ALL is a reason that we are in golus.
    Please correct me if I’m wrong”

    I understand Ulla to be saying that it is not 30 tzaddikim of the umos that keep them alive but the three mitzvos that they still keep (and, as an aside, we know that at least two of them are not kept nowadays ayin shom). I see now, though, that it can be interpreted differently.

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