The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1640086

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “I’ll ask him to please explain that to me according to Rambam etc. And then I can report back. Lmk if this would be helpful”

    Interesting? Yes. Fodder for our views? Certainly. Helpful to your viewpoint? You will probably think so but I’m sure we will all see it differently.

    #1640087

    Howzat
    Participant

    So sorry for not replying straight away (and waiting until Monday – yes, in Australia it’s well into Monday!!)

    So It would have hold true claiming that Lubavitch in Australia is worse than everywhere else if not for the fact that I was in Crown Heights too! The situation there is slightly different. There are many more from the older Chassidim who seem to be “normal and frum” but the younger generation is almost the same.
    It’s appalling (and sadly appealing). It maybe be because of all the “Aussies” coming there as the centre of gravity and then mixing in with the crowds and lowering the level, but whatever the reason is, the younger generation isn’t much better, at all, that the Melbourne Lubavitch community.

    #1640088

    RSo
    Participant

    Back to the tznius issue, if I may.

    Just this afternoon I was shown – I have friends who know that I am posting and provide me with things that they think I may find useful – a lubavich magazine that gives lots of details of the wedding of the lubavicher rebbe exactly 90 years ago in Kislev. There were two things there that caught my eye.

    The first was a picture of the rebbetzin on her wedding day in her wedding dress. Have you ever seen any picture of any other rebbishe kallah portrayed openly for all to see? I haven’t.

    The second is a quote by the person who was the shomer of the rebbe during the entire day and he is describing the badeken: “I saw the beautiful kallah inside the garden, attired in a beautiful dress.”

    If this is what lubavich was like 90 years ago, it is no wonder that it is where it is today!

    #1640089

    Howzat
    Participant

    Ok now for a few small scoops on Lubavitch in Melbourne.

    1. Do you know that the official school uniform for Beth Rivkah is above the knees??

    2. The boys and girls of year 12 (the last year of school) had a water fight! (I don’t know of any frum school anywhere that would not make a big fuss and story over it and make a cheshbon hanefesh were they went wrong)

    3. One Sukkos I was by a Lubavitch party and was asked with astonished and shocked faces if “I sleep in the Sukkah! (BTW doesn’t it say the the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one needs to sleep in the Sukkah unless he can’t for the Halachic reason)

    And the cherry on the cake I’ll leave for the next post just because I realise that when you bunch a few things together the Lubavitchers on this forum seem to pick and choose which points to respond to.

    #1640123

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Howzat,
    If you were in Australia when you posted your first post, it would seem to me, that you were Mechalel Shabbos R”L.

    Uniform is officially not Tznius? Not true. Individuals definitely play around with their uniforms, but I don’t believe that the official length is above the knee.
    The episode you describe with 12th grade boys and girls – I have never heard of it, could be it’s true. I’m not here to attempt to defend it.

    I too, have been to Melbourne and know the community extremely well (better than you, Howzat) and I also know Crown Heights very well, I have lived there, not just visited. And no, there’s not much to compare at all.

    #1640124

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    RSO,

    Never heard the quote you are referring to, but I’m going to guess that it was taken from someone’s diary in Loshon HaKodesh, and the writer paraphrased Chazal and wrote something about “Kallah Noeh”. Please post the exact words and their source.

    #1640145

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY, I quoted the exact words as it appears in a fairly new English chabad monthly which I just became aware of a few weeks ago. It’s called Derher, or something similar.

    #1640146

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY I found the magazine online! It’s called “A Chassidisher Derher” and it’s on page 53 of the Kislev edition which is only excerpted online. I searched for the quote I gave above and it showed up in a result but it seems that the preview keeps changing so it may not always appear.

    At any rate, I’m sure you have access to the actual magazine. The quote is most definitely there.

    #1640172

    Howzat
    Participant

    SHY
    I was waiting for someone to point out the fact that my other post was posted on Shabbos Australian time. For that I have two answers.

    1. I was in the US over the weekend for business.

    2. I think (and this I’m not sure but it may answer why others may seem to be posting on Shabbos or any weird time) the time of posting is when the mods put it up and so technically I could have sent it erev Shabbos GMT +11 and the mods only posting it later.

    But yes, the real answer is I was in the US over the weekend.

    #1640177

    Howzat
    Participant

    SHY
    I’m not going to argue with you regarding the Crown Heights community because though I’ve visited there, I must admit that I didn’t hang around that place enough to compare.
    But one thing you seem to agree Lubavitch in Melbourne is in a bad state and if they start missionizing their Chassidus to me I’m gonna tell them have a look at what SHY wrote here and please fix your problems before even contemplating teaching Chassidus to so called “snags”.

    Regarding the uniform, I hope your kidding me. The official cut is short – actually very short, those who wish can add an extra piece (now is that twisted or not??).

    And the episode between the 12 graders happened (I barely posted here because I din’t want to attack anything and everything. I only write things I know firsthand) not only that but one year for Purim the 12 grader girls got dressed up as expecting females (not all, but a large majority).

    So just to clarify “Lubavitch in Melbourne is problematic (even though I think it’s from the biggest communities) and do not learn from them. If so then I’m half way there. It frees my mind knowing that what they preach is baloney and even another Lubavitcher has given me a gushpankeh for that
    THANKS!!

    #1640195

    Chossid
    Participant

    Rso: I don’t know which statement of mine you are referring to, but there are MANY Litvishe gedolim who spoke out openly against your rebbe, and there are also a number of chassidishe rebbes who did.

    Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.
    So I’m asking which godel held against Lubavitche, Rebbe and what did he say and what did the Rebbe say back and hold. Because you keep on saying that ALL GEDOILIM hold what you say.

    Rso:I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.

    If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same? ( Maybe they are lacking in AY). And there is enough of ahavas Yisrael to be done in our on community. Second, there are many of talented Lubavitchers that can run big businesses and be rabbonim, melamdim…. But they decided for some reason that they are going to leave their comfort zone, and go to a hole in middle of the world and build up a community from scratch, I don’t really think it’s a lack of a job, aderabeh I know people that lelf there job to go on shlichus.
    Now in everything that a yid does, there is always a little if yeshus involved, wherever you are chabad being a shliach, litvish being a godel etc. etc. just some people like to put down people and focus on the negative.

    Rso: What about all the fights when shlichim open up chabad houses that encroach on other shlichim’s territories? Is that a manifestation of Ahavas Yisrael?

    Imagine someone opens up a business right by your business which you work for year to build up, wouldn’t you be upset? Now even you can’t compare to einyonai kedush but the concept exist, after a shliach comes down somewhere and buids up a community with programs and Bal habatim, then in middle of nowhere someone comes down and takes all he’s Bal habatim, it only makes sense to be upset, ( even though it’s not the ideal). So therefore they came up p with a system that shluchim have territories.

    Rso: What about the fights with the “mushrooms” (I’ll let you explain what I am referring to if you feel like it.) If these people are doing the same rebbe’s work that the official shlichim are doing, why are they considered out of line and “mushrooms”?

    They are not doing the same other shluchim, they are going to against the Rebbe ( most of them) they don’t listen to the system the Rebbe made and the people the Rebbe appointed, therefore they don’t deserve to be shluchim and most of them are mishichistim.

    And regarding tzius, I do agree that there is a problem regarding tzius, and btw it’s a problem in other community’s too, now if a child whose not michunich properly with kedusha probably, then it makes sense that he will not be acting accordingly. Now you have to take into consideration two things, 1 that a lot of people in Lubavitche are Bal teshuvas and mikurovim and they have very weak homes, since they them selves wore never michunich properly so they don’t know how to be mechanech ( which is a big problem). 2 that when a child nebech is falling off the derech we don’t through them out of the house like other companies, like the chassidishes. These are not excuses or justifying anything, it’s just the fact, and a reason why we see more tzius problems in Lubavitche (which we have to fix).

    Now if people don’t act accordingly to Torah or a certain hashkofa it’s doesn’t affect the kedusha of Torah or a hashkofa. Thre just not acting accordingly. I personally think that chabad chassidus has a lot to offer to your avodah, and I will love to discuss about this topic if anyone is interested.

    Now regarding Sheva mitzvos: rso I don’t get how you could learn the Gemorah your way, it just doesn’t seem to make sense in the words, is it that you are miss quoting a Gemorah just to justify yourself that Sheva mitzvos is Stam mishigasim, (I think aderabeh it’s a rayeh to tell goyim about it).
    And also the Rebbe didn’t say to go to goyim, rather if you meet a goy. And for your reason rso that there is arvus with goyim, I think you shouldn’t go for that reason to any non Jewish store.

    I think your just trying to find the negative to bring rayis to your agenda. I see that purely out of sinas chinom, I’m seeing this meny times, shliachs- just to find a job, tzius, and Sheva mitzvos- false raies for the Gemorah.

    #1640254

    username123321
    Participant

    Rso: I was busy until now, but here’s a possible explanation is that the sundial was poorly constructed.

    Sundials work because of the contrast between the shade and the dial, so if the sundial is made of a dark material, and there’s too much external shade, the contrast will be mush lower, and the sundial won’t work.

    So what would the tree do?

    When sun goes through a tree, some rays get blocked by leaves. Some rays go through the leaves, and some rays go between the leaves.

    So when you’re on the ground, you’ll see the sun, but it’ll be slightly darkened. So the scientists said like you “you see the see the sun. So obviously nothing’s blocking it.” While the Alter Rebbe said that while it’s not blocked completely, it’s blocked enough to break the sundial.

    But even leshitosecha, it still could be that the Frierdiker Rebbe heard the story the way he wrote it, and his mistake was that he was too trusting, and there was some kind of broken telephone somewhere up the chain.

    #1640267

    username123321
    Participant

    Aside from the claim I have already made earlier that your rebbe’s kavonah in this was to draw attention to himself and to claim the leadership that you have attributed to him,

    I don’t get something. You said earlier that you don’t believe that Lubavitch is not a Kefira organization per se. So we’re Bichlal Amisecha, and you have to judge us Lekaf Zechus. So Kal Vachomer, you should be judging the Rebbe Lekaf Zechus. It’s just mind boggling how a Frum person would write a post, when it comes to Lubavitch, that reminds me of FailedMessiah. You can take this further, that the reason certain Roshei Yeshiva pushed for Kollel was so that they’d have financial control over their community, or that the reasons why different Admorim were against Limmudei Chol is to keep people poor and easily swayed. Chas Veshalom to say such a thing !!

    The truth is, that the Rebbe didn’t want Mivtzoyim to be a Lubavitch thing[1]. He would have been more than happy if someone else would have gone out to put Tefillin on people, or Tzitzis, or got them to keep Shabbos, or talked to people about Hashem, or Shiluach HaKan, or pushed for any other Mitzvah. There’s nothing Lubavitch in Mivtzoim.

    It’s just that there’s an obligation of “Hochiach Tochiach”. And that’s what Mivtzoim is about.

    The question is, what’s the proper way to Mochiach people. So the Lubavitch derech is, that the point of being Mochiach is to get the other person to stop sinning. Now, the question is what’s the most effective way to do that? So there are two ways to be Mochiach – One way is to come to someone who’s breaking the Torah and say “Sinner. Stop now!! You’re violating a negative commandment. You know what would happen to you if there was a Beis din now?” The other is to tell him that he’s Jewish, that he should come to Shul, do a small Mitzvah, and slowly teach him more and more until he becomes a full Maamin, as a fully Shomer Shabbos Jew.

    So the same way we try to find the good in the Satmar Derech (and we do. I’ve never heard any Lubavitcher “in the know” speaking badly about Reb Yoel [2], for example), it would be nice if others would give the same courtesy back.

    [1]. And I say this to Lubavitchers too, for the record.

    [2]. And even during the whole Satmar-Lubavitch controversy, our main issue was with the behavior of certain Chassidim. I don’t remember there being any fight with them personally.

    #1640268

    slabodka
    Participant

    @cs:

    “Do you have a better candidate?””

    For ARGUMENT’S SAKE, let’s pretend there is no better candidate. Does that automatically make the Rebbe Moshiach? Maybe there is NO candidate in this Dor. In the previous generation, did anyone point at the “best” candidate and say that that particular individual has to be Moshiach because he is the best candidate? That answer is completely absurd.

    In terms of the Ahavas Yisroel business, why is it that many Shluchim in out of town communities are not “gores” the Litvishe Rabonim/institutions in town? Why is it that they are not Makdim Shalom ever? (You MIGHT get a lukewarm response back if YOU are Makdim Shalom)? And I speak from personal experience here….

    #1640271

    username123321
    Participant

    This is not shayah nowadays.

    Just because we can’t do the second part of the Psak means we shouldn’t do the first part?

    #1640270

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid: “Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.”
    I understand your point of view, honestly, but you have to understand why I disagree with you. As I don’t consider the lubavicher rebbe a gadol beYisroel, and, as I have written, I see him as someone who had a lot of “talent” but who allowed himself to “stray” from the straight and narrow, I certainly feel that I can argue with what he says. I understand that you see it differently.
    I don’t, as you claim, hold that ALL gedolim hold like I do, but I do hold that many of them do, and in that we can include virtually all the litvishe velt.

    “If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same?”
    Because we/they think that it is a dangerous derech and the first thing the RBS”O wants is for us to protect our own from foreign influences. I believe you would agree that it is worse for a person raised in a frum home to be mechalel Shabbos c”v than it is for someone raised in a non-frum home. Both are not good but the former is a lot worse. Therefore, making sure our kids and talmidim aren’t exposed to danger and have a high level of kedushah is our number one priority. And the proof that your derech is very dangerous is what I have been writing about all the time: lack of tznius, and worse, in lubavich.

    “there are many of talented Lubavitchers that can run big businesses and be rabbonim, melamdim…. But they decided for some reason that they are going to leave their comfort zone, and go to a hole in middle of the world and build up a community from scratch”
    Yes, that’s true. But as I explained in my original post and in my reply to a question about kollel yungeleit, social pressure and the feeling of being an achiever in one’s own circle is always a factor. It’s what keeps many/most people in kollel when they could be running a successful business. It’s what keeps many/most bochurim in yeshivos when they could be out studying in college. And it’s what keeps many lubavichers in chabad houses.
    I don’t consider that focusing on the negative, as it’s not negative because that’s the way Hashem made the world. The seforim say – I think it may also be a midrash – that if not for jealousy people wouldn’t marry, raise families or build houses. All of which are what Hashem wants in HIs world.

    “after a shliach comes down somewhere and buids up a community with programs and Bal habatim, then in middle of nowhere someone comes down and takes all he’s Bal habatim, it only makes sense to be upset”
    Of course it does. But if the whole raison d’etre of the first person was ahavas Yisroel it wouldn’t upset him. It’s natural but don’t put a lesheim Shamayim spin on it.

    “They are not doing the same other shluchim, they are going to against the Rebbe ( most of them) they don’t listen to the system the Rebbe made and the people the Rebbe appointed, therefore they don’t deserve to be shluchim and most of them are mishichistim”
    I’m an outsider (had you guessed that?) but to me it seems they are dong the same things the other shlichim are doing, and just as successfully. You claim that the don’t follow the system the way your rebbe wanted, but they claim they do. That’s the problem with your group’s lack of leadership, which I have already mentioned a few times.
    And probably more than half of lubavich today are meshichistim. I don’t like it. You don’t like it. But you can’t just write it off as non-lubavich. CS claims to be a shlichah and she is a meshichist. Is she therefore not doing the rebbe’s work?

    Regarding tznius, which you acknowledge as a problem, you write “Now if people don’t act accordingly to Torah or a certain hashkofa it’s doesn’t affect the kedusha of Torah or a hashkofa”
    That’s true when I don’t act properly, and, it seems, when you don’t act properly, because we know that we are wrong. But the VAST majority of lubavichers, both BTs and FFBs, make fun of the basic levels of tznius as practiced by others. I know this for a fact because I and my chaveirim are often the butt of sick jokes to that effect. Every time we go to a family simchah made by the lubavich part of our family, I hear afterwards from my wife and kids how someone has made fun of the way they act. One example: “Come and say mazeltov to my wife/husband. What’s wrong with that? They’re happily married and they’re not going to be interested in you.” This happens, and it ONLY happens at lubavicher simchos.

    “And for your reason rso that there is [I assume you left the word “no” out by mistake] arvus with goyim, I think you shouldn’t go for that reason to any non Jewish store.”
    There is clearly no arvus by goyim, but I don’t see the connection with the rest of your statement. Nonetheless, you are right. One shouldn’t go to any non Jewish store and deal with the owners… unless one has to. In the same vein one shouldn’t go down the street unless one has to. However, you have written that you believe that the mivtza of 7 mitzvos is only intended for someone who already has a connection with goyim, and if that’s true than that’s fair enough. It doesn’t make me or anyone other non-lubavicher I know think that the whole campaign is still a meshigass. (Btw I still understand the gemoro my way.)

    One final word in this overly long post. I see that you are a rational person who is trying hard and fairly to defend what you believe is the correct path. But you have to realize that way way way over 50% of chareidim think that your path is far off the beaten track, and you’re going to have to accept that. So to you specifically I will apologize for my tone, but not for my content.

    #1640276

    RSo
    Participant

    username, I like your attempt to explain the sundial story but it doesn’t work.

    First, if the trees could be seen then any fool would know that they were causing the problem. They wouldn’t have needed the Baal Hatanya for that. And if they couldn’t be seen they couldn’t disturb the sundial in any way.

    Second, and this is what I meant when I wrote about the hours 2 to 5 pm being impossible, if the trees were disturbing to any extent then they could not have disturbed from 2 shaos zemaniyos after chatzos until 5 shaos zemaniyos after chatzos. There is a site called timeanddate where you can find the height of the sun (in degrees) at any time of any day of any year. For the sake of argument I entered Krakow, a city in southern Poland, as the difference between winter and summer there is not as extreme as it would be further north or in Russia. The sun’s height at 2 shaos zemaniyos after chatzos varies between 52 and 14 degrees. At 5 shaos zemaniyos it varies between 9 and 6 degrees. You physically can’t construct something that would disturb the sundial during davka those hours. Furthermore, as the height of the trees would not vary greatly during the seasons – and there is a HUGE difference in height between 52 and 14 degrees – it wouldn’t have affected the same hours throughout the year.

    Your final paragraph suggesting why the Rayatz wrote the story in that way may indeed be correct, but why is it any worse than what I wrote that he was writing fiction? Personally, if I would have been you I would have preferred saying that my rebbe intentionally wrote interesting fiction to captivate and influence his readers than to say that he somehow made a mistake.

    #1640280

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Howzat,
    I wasn’t actually suspecting you of posting on Shabbos, but it did look strange enough to bring it up. Thanks for clarifying.
    I don’t think it’s productive to this discussion to raise issues of particular communities that virtually no one here is familiar with, aside from us two, and what CS and possibly others have heard from friends. I am not a woman, and I never studied in Bais Rivkah in Melbourne, so I am the wrong person to give a definitive answer on their uniform policy, I’d like for CS to ask her Australian friends who would have learned there for the real story.

    Regarding you not being interested in what Chassidus Chabad has to offer after you see the standards of Lubavitch in Australia, I can’t blame you, it’s a hard sell when the salesman doesn’t act the part. Interestingly, Melbourne is probably one of the only large Chabad communities where there is no formal organized attempt to teach Chassidus to other frum people, as in Monsey, Boro Park, Lakewood, Eretz Yisrael, London, Canada, and some other places I’ve probably missed. I think the reason is because they would have very little success. However, there are some very Chassidishe Yidden in the Melbourne community who are role models of the effect that Chassidus can have on a person, people who are exceptionally refined and – dare I say – holy Yidden. There are several huge Talmidei Chachomim among Chabad in Australia, and world renowned Poskim. I’ll drop a few names in no particular order:

    R. Yehoram Ulman, Sydney Bais Din
    R. Moshe Gutnick, SBD.
    R. Mordechai Gutnick, Melbourne Bais Din
    R. Faitel Levin, Melbourne, one of the greatest Halachic authorities of our time, and Bli Guzma, the greatest Talmid Chochom in the continent of Australia.
    R. Binyomin Cohen, Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva Gedolah, and a tremendous Talmid Chochom.
    R. Ahrel Serebryanski, Head Shliach of Australia, and an actual Heilige Yid.

    And many more names of younger up and coming Rabbonim. If you look around, you shall find. If I lived in Australia, I’d be able to tell you more. And of course, there are the Chassidim who helped establish Frumkeit in Australia, and Chabad in particular, R. Moshe Feiglin, a Chassid of the Rebbe Rashab who arrived in Australia in 1912, and has the distinction of meriting that all his descendents are Shomrei Torah, something no one else who arrived at that time can claim, to the best of my knowledge. R. Zalman Serebryanski, who arrived in the 40s, and is responsible for much of Frum life in Melbourne today. R. YD Groner who came in the 50s and accomplished tremendous things, and not just in the Chabad community.

    So while currently Lubavitch in Melbourne may not be a shining light of Chassidishkait, bear in mind that a vast majority of it’s adherents are Baalei Tshuva, and that if not for the work of those elder Chassidim from the 40s and 50s, there would be far fewer frum people in Melbourne today, not just in the Chabad community.

    #1640281

    username123321
    Participant

    Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.
    So I’m asking which godel held against Lubavitche, Rebbe and what did he say and what did the Rebbe say back and hold. Because you keep on saying that ALL GEDOILIM hold what you say.

    Honestly, I don’t think you want to go there. The fact is, that many Litvisher Roshei Yeshiva spoke out against Lubavitch. We (rightly, in my opinion) just don’t koch in these things, but if you really want to know, what you should do is look up who was on the Moetzes in, say, the Lameds through the Nuns. If you don’t know who they are, you can generally assume that we didn’t get along too well.

    The thing is, that there were also people that we did hear about, as they were friendly with the Rebbe, but it was only in the early years. By the later years, some of those also stopped.

    And also, just a small tip, because I can see where you’re going.

    You do realize your on the Yeshiva world coffeeroom, not on the Modern Orthodox coffee room. And while there are a few Modern Orthodox people here, most of them long abandoned this thread.

    You’re dealing here with Yeshivish/Chassidish posters. These are people who really, really respect their Gedolim. And rightfully so. And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close [1]. So practically, there’s absolutely no way that you’ll be able to argue with their Gedolim, as you simply don’t have the stature. So unless you want to close this thread (and get yourself banned, while you’re at it), I would keep the topic theoretical, as you’ll never come to a conclusion as to “who’s right”. Especially, I would hope that no one would change their Hashkafa through an internet chat room. If you do, there are way bigger problems with your Yiddishkeit than Lubavitch/Misnagdim fights.

    [1]. Try getting a really Yeshivish person to say the words “The Chazon Ish said X. That was just wrong of him, and we’re suffering from his mistake to this day. We should have done Y. He’s human, he erred”. They’ll squirm, and will feel blasphemous uttering such a sentence. Just as we’d feel saying such a thing about the Rebbe.

    #1640289

    username123321
    Participant

    If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same? ( Maybe they are lacking in AY).

    First of all, it’s not the Yuds anymore. Lubavitch is not the only ones going out anymore. The thing is, that there are so many Litvishers, that they don’t have to go out one by one. They can actually send out a Kvutza at a time.

    But really, it’s a question of priorities. I know of Shluchim, that if they just had the opportunity to sit Al HeMenucha VeAl Hanachala in some upstate shtetl, would have become tremendous Rabbonim. As it is, he’s out there working as a Chabad house director[1]. On the other hand, as a Chabad house director, he’s had a direct influence in tens if not hundreds of Mekuravim over the decades, who are now fully Frum and went through Yeshivas. The question is, what’s more important?

    So we’ll be proud of the shliach, thanks to who’s Mesirus Nefesh there are now tons of Mitzvas being performed by his students, and his student’s students, ad sof kol hadoros.

    There’s a famous story of a certain Gaon who was asked to take the job of a Rosh Yeshiva. He didn’t want to, since he was scared that it would hurt his own personal growth, as he’d have to spend his time preparing Shiur, saying Shiur and answering questions. So he went to the Chofetz Chaim. The Chofetz Chaim told him of a Mashal of an expert shoemaker who was offered a partnership in a shoe factory. He didn’t want to take it, since his shoes were exquisite and expensive works of art, while the factory would produce cheap and shoddy work. But his friend changed his mind. He told him “listen, you make 100 Ruble a shoe, and make one shoe a month. But if your factory will produce 5,000 shoes a month, even if each shoe costs only a Ruble, you still made 4,900 rubles over that month. Even though each shoe’s worth less, the quantity overrides the quality.” So the same thing here, said the Chofetz Chaim. Your Torah study’s great. But the Torah study of a thousand Bachurim, however puny each individual is relative to the Gadol, is still worth it.

    But on the other hand, it wouldn’t surprise me if he his children know about the Metziyus of sports (not that they talk about it in their home, Chas VeShalom, but you often can’t help but overhear it from your congregants) or US politics (same as above).

    [1]. Just for the record, he still learns, is a Rov, and all of his children are Frum.

    #1640303

    username123321
    Participant

    Also, to @rso, I want to point out that while Shluchim get kavod from each other, it doesn’t pay off the Bizyonos that Shlichus comes with.

    Unlike Shul Rabbonim and even Kiruv Rabbonim, Shluchim deal with people who aren’t Frum and often don’t care to be Frum. And there is no contract with a board or anything. You want food, you’ve got to fund-raise from these people who never asked you to come there to begin with. And as soon as someone starts becoming too religious for the community (when they start needing a normal Frum school, community, etc.) the Shliach often recommends them to move to a larger Jewish community and loses contact[1]. And while some are lucky to live within a driving distance of other shluchim or Lubavitchers, there are plenty of Shluchim see each other once a year, if they’re lucky. And these Shluchim also have to send their children away to board (by grandparents or uncles) since it’s unlikely that there’ll be a normal Frum school within the area. And while these kids do grow up Frum (I know a few Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva who grew up this way), it’s not easy to send a child half way across the world, even if he’s going to a grandparent.

    Tell me, do you think that getting a once a year Kavod by the Kinnus is worth it?

    [1]. And even if they don’t, the BT has to give Maaser to his new community (Bnei Ircha), so he can only give whatever leftovers he has to the original shliach.

    #1640451

    K-cup
    Participant

    “[1]. Try getting a really Yeshivish person to say the words “The Chazon Ish said X. That was just wrong of him, and we’re suffering from his mistake to this day. We should have done Y. He’s human, he erred”. They’ll squirm, and will feel blasphemous uttering such a sentence. Just as we’d feel saying such a thing about the Rebbe.”
    Totally false.
    I think this is one of the key differences, and is not true. The yeshivish/Litvish community would not squirm in the same way. Half my family is chabad (a few shluchim,a sister and brother in law meshichist), the other half yeshivish. A Gadol is NOT AT ALL a “litvisher Rebbe”. The Litvish community is good at saying “This part of what Gadol X said is wrong” and just cuts it out, ignores it. It’s very common

    #1640462

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel: Can you answer my question about the psak din?

    Username: I clearly mentioned previously a case where I felt the litvishe gedolim erred (in regards to the peace process.)

    And there’s another difference between most litvishers and chabadniks – while litvishers are hesitant to admit the chazan ish erred, they have no problem admitting he CAN err. Most chabad hwoever, near-deify the rebbe.

    #1640531

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “You’re dealing here with Yeshivish/Chassidish posters. These are people who really, really respect their Gedolim. And rightfully so. And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close [1]”

    Are you nuts? What kind of ignorance is that? You have the audacity to diminish our respect of gedolim? You seem to be clueless to the understanding that what you have done to the rebbes name and torah has probably caused him endless suffering in the next world, and continues to do so as you inch closer and closer to a”z in his name!

    #1640537

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    YR,
    I missed your question. Please repost it.

    #1640544

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel, how many of the infamous’s psak din’s signatures are forged?

    And if none how, how is that not representitive of lubavitch?

    #1640550

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    YR,
    There are several Piskei Din, with many many names on them. Many are said to be forged, and many are random Rabbonim of tiny Yishuvim that nobody ever heard of. Quite a few major non Lubavitch Poskim have their names on it, IIRC Rav Menashe Klein Z”L was on it. I’m sure much of it is forged, and this “Psak” doesn’t carry much weight within Lubavitch.

    #1640552

    samthenylic
    Participant

    Lubavitch is in a STATE OF A”Z (ch”v) AND DON’T MISUNDERSTAND IT!
    Is something isn’t done to curb it, …

    #1640608

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Mr Sam,
    Do I sound like an oved A”z to you?

    #1640633

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    username123321,

    “Saying that we’re Kofrim over this [davening late] is another. And getting insulted when we argue back is surprising.”

    I don’t think I’ve seem or heard anyone assert that Chabad chassidim are kofrim due to zmanim. Certainly not me. That’s a straw man. The concerns are about the perceived deification of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L and changing the definition of Moshiach to fit him. And the idea that all Jews must accept these precepts or they are spiritually inferior.

    #1640681

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    SH, I think Sam was being sarcastic.

    You and username are most definitely not Ovdei AZ, Reuvein Wolf is, and the Jury is out re CS

    #1640714

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ Username

    And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close”

    This statement is well beneath the standards of your otherwise articulate and well thought out posts.

    #1640711

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ K-Cup

    “A Gadol is NOT AT ALL a “litvisher Rebbe”.

    This is true (although not so sure about some of the Brisker chevra). Just realize that there are positives and negatives that go along with it.

    The Litvish community is good at saying “This part of what Gadol X said is wrong” and just cuts it out, ignores it. It’s very common”

    “Is wrong…cuts it out…ignores it!! I don’t know any competent talmidei chachamim who would take such a cavalier attitude towards the words of the Chofetz Chaim or the Chazon Ish.

    #1640723

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    YR,
    While I strongly disagree with Reuven Wolf, it’s a stretch to call him an Oved Avodah Zara. Being wrong, and being a fool doesn’t make one an idol worshipper. Kol Sh’kein for CS, she is definitely not an idol worshipper. I have seen a letter (it was quoted here earlier) from HaRav Ahron Feldman of Ner Yisrael where he strongly criticizes Mishechistim, but not once does he go so far to call them Ovdei Avodah Zara. That is a gross exaggeration, a slander. Avodah Zara is one of the three most severe Aveiros, don’t throw it out on everyone you disagree with, that’s plain Motzi Shem Ra which is a serious Aveirah too. Trust me, I have more beef with Mishechistim than any non Lubavitcher here, but I’ll stick to true Taanos, not absolute falsehoods.

    #1640821

    RSo
    Participant

    username: ” You said earlier that you don’t believe that Lubavitch is not a Kefira organization per se. So we’re Bichlal Amisecha, and you have to judge us Lekaf Zechus. So Kal Vachomer, you should be judging the Rebbe Lekaf Zechus. ”

    I was dan lechaf zechus for years and years, but matters got worse and worse, and in the end I realized that I think there is a huge problem which your rebbe caused. I can’t be dan lechaf zechus any more. Nonetheless, and I have written this before, I think he has millions of zehuyos for the good things he achieved. It’s just that in the last, say, twenty years of his life things went downhill.

    #1640827

    RSo
    Participant

    username: ” So unless you want to close this thread (and get yourself banned, while you’re at it)”

    Are you threatening?

    #1640834

    RSo
    Participant

    username: “Tell me, do you think that getting a once a year Kavod by the Kinnus is worth it?”

    To me it seems that you have a very unsophisticated, even childish, understanding of the human mind and how kavod works. It doesn’t have to be kavod that someone else gives you, although there is certainly some of that in nearly all cases of chabad shlichim, but the kavod that you feel becaue you are doing what to you seems a bekavodige thing. If a shliach feels that he is a big chassid becasue he is on shlichus, then the bizyonos he gets doesn’t faze him. Aderaba, it makes him feel even better with himself.

    Nothing wrong with any of that, but it just can’t be called lesheim Shamayim or ahavas Yisrael.

    #1640970

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ SH

    “I have more beef with Mishechistim than any non Lubavitcher here”

    At least we now finally know where the beef is. Cha-ching.

    #1641038

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    SH – I called him a koifer becuase he feels the Rebbe elected Donald Trump. He explicitly says so in his Beis Mashiach.

    While I agree that Meshichism at its most basic level isn’t kefira, most Meshichists take it far and beyond that, saying straight out that the Rebbe is omniscient and cannot err, both of which I believe are kefira.

    Almost all meshichists on chabadtalk agree to those two statements; I strongly urge all interested to read the old chabadtalk forums where nearly all meshichist interpret “Atzmus Umahus” literally and “Shechina Medaberes mitoch groino” to apply to the rebbe 24/7 (and not merely when the rebbe is saying a sicha) and thus approach the level of kefira.

    Also read the threads about the Rebbe making mistakes etc.

    #1641048

    samthenylic
    Participant

    A young BT lady in Crown Neights told me once: “When my baby gets up in the morning, I wash him negel wasser, say “Mode Ani” with him, and let him kiss the picture of the Rebbe”. If that is not AZ, I don’t know what is…
    Although the more seasoned chasidim are not into this deification, they should put a stop to such practices. It besmirches the WHOLE chasidus. A pity the Rebbe did not designate a successor.

    #1641050

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    RSO,
    In response to your question about the description of the Rebbe and Rebbetzins Chasuna in Warsaw, I located the original description written by Reb Elya Chaim Althoiz, in a beautiful, poetic and flowery Loshon HaKodesh rarely seen today. For those of you familiar with that style, there is nothing strange in it at all, and nearly every flowery description is a paraphrase of a Posuk or Maamar Chazal. I’ll post here the lines that concerned you:

    ופתאום הנני בגן ירוק פורה צומח ופורח כמו בימי האביב הטובים והבהירים, והכלה המהוללה היפה בנשים יושבת בתוך הגן הזה מקושטת בטלית נאה, מהודרת ברוב הדרה, פני’ הלבן כסיד ברוב חן ויופי עם יראת אלקים, נשקף כמו שחר, מהיער פרחים ושושנים עם ערוגות הבשם אשר סבבוה מכל צד ופנה.

    It’s also interesting to note that all the great Gedolei Torah and Admorim of Poland were present, and you can see the great respect they were accorded, and the titles that Reb Elya Chaim writes for them. He specifically dwells on the presence of two great Polisher Gedolim – the Radziner Rebbe (who was honored with reading the Ksuba IIRC) and HaRav Menachem Zemba HY”D.

    To preempt the questions that will no doubt follow, I’ll show where Reb Elya Chaim took various phrases from:

    כלה המהוללה:
    Standard wording among Klal Yisrael.
    היפה בנשים:
    Shir HaShirim 6:1
    רוב חן ויופי עם יראת אלוקים
    Clearly a play on words from Eishes Chayil
    שֶׁקֶר הַחֵן וְהֶבֶל הַיֹּפִי אִשָּׁה יִרְאַת יְהוָה הִיא תִתְהַלָּל.

    You could have realized all this yourself RSO, instead of me going digging to find the original wording, but you first try look at everything concerning Lubavitch in a bad light. I instead, used my common sense and said that the original Loshon HaKodesh is probably paraphrasing Chazal as is so common in Rabbonishe writing.

    #1641058

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    For rso: two things ( im gonna attempt a brief post please lmk whether to elaborate)

    1) why did your relatives become lubavitch?
    2) are they chassidish?
    3) you seem to misunderstand the concept of tznius and kedusha. Tznius is a fine line as is kedusha. It is keeping up boundaries without objectifying women and thus strengthening the yetzer hara. Several examples: tamar is praised for wearing a veil while the girls by the churban are denounced for doing so as they did it to arouse attention.

    Similarly you’re making a “thing” out of the comment of the Rebbe’s shushvin who definitely had no untzniusdik intentions regarding the Rebbetzin, shows more of a lack of inner kedusha and tznius than lubavitch… The chassidisher derher didn’t see it as a “thing” obviously or they wouldn’t have printed it.

    By your posts logic, lev tahor would be the epitome of tznius (funny how that extreme of tznius has now led to allegations of outright lack in the worst way), the amoraim were less holy than you and had major kedusha problems because they would say kalle noeh vachasuda etc.

    Not saying this to be harsh just responding to your tznius post. I’m sure you didn’t mean to sound that way.

    #1641062

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    SH enjoying your posts! Good to see some chassidishe shtoltz!

    #1641065

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    This is a quote from Chabadtalk that was left for nearly a year with no machah from one of the prominent Moshichists:

    I agree with your entire post except for this point. “Fallible” means liable to err or be mistaken. The Rebbe is omnisicient (all knowing) in addition to being a tzaddik and never sinning (even a beinoni never sins!), and when the Rebbe did not quote a pasuk precisely, it was deliberate. Chassidus teaches that every move of a Rebbe is fraught with significance.

    (I can’t post links but google should find it.)

    CS – Do you agree with this quote?

    #1641066

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Regarding the Rebbe not being able to make a mistake:

    It may be helpful to understand that it’s not that the Rebbe was incapable of making a mistake as a person – no person is infallible, and I can cite you two times where the Rebbe did make a mistake on a personal level.

    When we talk about the Rebbe not being able to make a mistake we mean on a communal level and that is not because of the personal greatness of the Rebbe but because of the extra siyata dishmaya a leader of klal Yisrael has.

    There is a well known story with a non chassidic Rabbi (was it the noda biyehuda? Name is eluding me). He was trying out to be Rav of a learned city that prided itself on getting top notch Rabbonim. The Torah scholars of the community gathered to test him on his knowledge and presented many complex tricky halachic questions.

    He answered all brilliantly and correctly, except for the last one. The leaders exchanged glances. He failed. He asked them if the last one was a real halachic case or a theoretical one. They said theoretical (as opposed to all the others). He said he knew it was because his logic can fail, he can make mistakes as a human, but since he does his best, he knows when it comes to halacha lmaase, Hashem will help him not to fail for the sake of the community

    #1641070

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    And that’s aside from the fact that it’s halacha that you’re not allowed to doubt your Rebbe, and if you do youre doubting Hashem. Hilchos TT 5:5. Somehow I don’t think people here will refer to the Rambam as an oved az cvs

    #1641072

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    And btw rso I didn’t respond to your example of the Satmar Rebbe as Nossi hador because it didn’t meet the three requirements listed. (Not that I have any lack of respect for the Satmar Rebbe. We hold him in very high regard as I’ve necked mentioned previously)

    #1641073

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Rso but I don’t like “proving” the Rebbe as Nossi hador anyway. We view him that way and have good reason to. You don’t need to and that’s ok. But to ask if we think that way and then get all riled up and annoyed any time its mentioned as a response to a query, without providing a serious rebuttal of why WE shouldn’t, is silly

    #1641092

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    And that’s aside from the fact that it’s halacha that you’re not allowed to doubt your Rebbe, and if you do youre doubting Hashem. Hilchos TT 5:5. Somehow I don’t think people here will refer to the Rambam as an oved az cvs

    So ר׳ מאיר should have followed אחר?

    #1641101

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “But to ask if we think that way and then get all riled up and annoyed any time its mentioned as a response to a query, without providing a serious rebuttal of why WE shouldn’t, is silly”
    He did provide a serious rebuttal. Mire than once. Nameky that the title doesnt exist. He made it up !
    Why do you pretend everything you dont like didn’t happen?

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