The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

Viewing 50 posts - 1,301 through 1,350 (of 2,053 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1642317

    RSo
    Participant

    username, I don’t know if you recall that when I first mentioned the inyan of not sleeping in the sukkah I myself wrote that many chassidic groups have customs that don’t seem to fit into halacha. My point was not about not sleeping in the sukkah, it was about the weird lomdus your rebbe used to explain it, a point that was recently reiterated by rockstar.

    It must be hard for you to write mentshliche replies to me, an acknowledged non-believer in much of what lubavich believes, but you certainly try, and I appreciate and applaud you for it!

    #1642319

    RSo
    Participant

    NonPolitical: “That (I believe) is RSo’s point”

    Precisely, as I posted before seeing your post.

    #1642350

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Eli Y,, The mitzva is being in the sukkah, קיום המצוה and not tthe going into the sukkoh, מעשה המצוה so the consciousness in sleeping doesn’t matter.

    #1642348

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Repost: My first post came out very unclearly – I want to just point out that while I believe certain meshichistin are kofrim, sukkah has nothing to do with it.

    My first post may be misconstruable, and I want to clarify.

    #1642377

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    FYI,
    I posted about Igros at length on a previous thread that I believe RSO was on, and had no patience flogging an old horse.

    YR,
    The Rebbe never said he’s a Navi.

    I love how everyone jumps on this sleeping thing, and always goes straight for the craziest possible explanation “he didn’t sleep for eight whole days?? Impossible!!”
    Anyone who knows anything about the Rebbe would know that judging by his schedule alone, he never slept properly, and it’s not hard to imagine that on Sukkos he stayed up at night, as he often did during the week, and slept intermittently at other times. I don’t know if this legend is true, but it certainly could be.

    YR,
    Please ask the Mods to send me an email address. Thanks.

    #1642423

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    Sechel; I clearly recall the tekufah before gimel tamuz. I was told then by Lubavicher Chasidim in my shul that the Rebbe said Higia Zman Geulaschem, “Betoras Nevuah”.

    #1642447

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel – I already did. Not sure if they passed it on.

    What thread refers to the Igros?

    #1642417

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Sechel – since this is an excuse to explain why didn’t sleep in the sukkah, it makes no difference if it was intermittent or not – even shinas aray is assur chutz lasukkah. Hence, the only possible explanation in this context is the crazy one.

    And we both know chabadniks believe even crazier things about their rebbe. Heck, some even think he’s alive!

    #1642657

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Mods: can you pass on to me Yeshivish Rockstars email? Or is there a policy against that?

    Sorry, there’s a policy against that.

    #1642711

    Chossid
    Participant

    Rso: “Yes, and I have proven it. Remember, my statement was that there has been no such thing for (at least) hundreds of years. Moshe Rabbeinu was the Nossi Hador. There were nesi’im of Shevatim. There were the nesi’im in Eretz Yisroel. But the concept Nossi hador as applied to someone in the last hundreds of years originated with the last lubavicher rebbe.”

    So let’s just clarify, it’s not made up by the Rebbe, (because it’s mentioned in many heilikeh sforim,) just the Rebbe was the one that brought it up in the past generations.

    So first why does that make it wrong? Second forget about the title of it, you can just look at how the Rebbe acted, for example before Roshe hashona he stood for hours excepting, panim from all types of yeddin for all walks of life, and on Roshe hashona before, tekios, he took all those panim and kevitulach, and put his talis over them and davend and cryed for some time before he blew the shofor. The same with the friediker Rebbe if you know what he did in Russia, and not only that he said many times that he doesn’t want to be the Rebbe for klal Yisrael, but rather a Rebbe like hi father, and that’s why he didn’t want to move to America, until he was just forced to.

    Your not forced to accept it, you don’t have too, but this is facts that happened.

    Rso: “(I was going to answer the question you asked immediately prior to the one I quoted above, but I thought that there’s no point stam offending you. וד”ל)”

    If you can answer those questions please, both of them.

    (I’m not getting offended, because I’m not saying my opinion I’m saying what big people hold. But still didn’t bringe a godel or Rebbe that says what you say)

    Chossid: “but even then it is told that the Rebbe didn’t sleep a whole sukkis because of the chshash”

    It was told from the maskirim that hong around the Rebbe. And took cyof him

    The same it doesn’t make sense to you, it doesn’t make sense to me, but that’s what happened.
    And in general he didn’t sleep really more then three hours a night, especially in the early years.
    If you only knew a little about the Rebbes schedule, he didn’t sleep too much, especially after a whole night of yechidus, which went to the early morning.

    And regarding the made up mishigas of writing to the igros.
    Rso: from where do you get the fact that, “You are certainly in the minority in lubavich.”???

    The fact is that ruboi kekuloi doesn’t write to the igros.

    Now regarding criteria of being a godel or a tzadik.

    Your entitled to your opinion.

    But I will repeat again, you can’t make up facts according to your on desire, and way you learn, you have to base you shita on some what of a talmid chochom, godel or tzadik. And you should think twice before you come to a maskona, because first you should learn more of what a Rebbe is, and what the Rebbe was, what he was boki in and his day to day life. Second I think you are arguing not just with Lubavitch, but rather must of the chassidishe world, (which you said that you are chassidish.) and some litvish too, you should check up the book חד בדרא and many other books and sforim, and speak to mevinim, before you continue speaking of not holding the Rebbe as godel or tzadik.

    Yeshivishrockstar:
    First I apologize for not writing harav shach, he did know alot more then me.

    “I have no intention of bringing up sukkah again here in this forum – my main intention was to demondtrate that it’s not merely sinas chinam when litvishers call certain chabadniks kofrim, but rather that there’s a basis for that.”

    What the basis?
    First for sinas chinom second that Lubavitch are koifrim.

    #1642753

    Non Political
    Participant

    @ SH

    “Non Political,
    Look it up, the early Chassidim davening way way after Zman Tefilah.”

    I was bringing a halachic justification that actually had traction with (some) subsequent Poskim. The custom you are referring to was:
    1) roundly condemned and ceased.
    2) not as widespread as you are implying

    But ok, if you want an early source for davvenning completely outside of zman see the Trumas HaDeshen re: Maariv. If you learn his teshuva you will note that how he deals with the issue is highly instructive.

    #1642767

    CS
    Participant

    Laskern:
    “CS, ישראל ואורייתא וקב’ה חד הוא what does this mean? I”
    Was this a rhetorical question or one you wanted me to answer?

    #1642771

    CS
    Participant

    Regarding both Rambams thank you everyone for your input. I looked both up.

    So regarding the one on how to view your Rebbe, the mefarshim explain more on that halacha (TT 5:1) that it does mean that you need to see and explain everything your Rebbe does in a favourable light. You are allowed to pasken differently but not in his presence.

    So regarding that paskening thing – I think we lubavitchers just don’t have the same Torah knowledge as the Rebbe to start paskening or seriously questioning the Rebbe’s Torah, as we know far far less Torah than the Rebbe. We can ask how the Rebbe reached his conclusion but we don’t fool ourselves to dare put ourselves on the same footing as if our raayos can upshlug the Rebbe.

    Tzaddikim who were on the Rebbeims level did do that and we don’t view them as any less.

    Regarding the Rambam and moshiach i reached the Rav (very well respected and mainstream as I said.) He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.

    #1642775

    CS
    Participant

    YR:
    Me: “Have you ever considered that moshiach may come in the near future and answer all the questions?”

    YR: “Have you ever considered he won’t? Because if he doesn’t, you and all your decendents will have to find answers.”

    I believe he will. This world is and has run by Hashem’s Master Plan and is heading that way. Your sentence above reminds me of another thread here where someone asked what would happen if moshiach doesn’t come by the year 6000. It’s just impossible. Anyhow by the Vilna Gaons (I think, unless it was the chofetz chaim) calculations, moshiach should be here within 15 years.

    “And those answers may be very similar to ones another religion has had in the past.”

    Cvs. We always follow halacha first and foremost. Also, we want moshiach anyway regardless of whether it’s the Rebbe or not. It’s definitely not a maker or breaker kind of thing.
    As I said before with the benefit of hindsight all will be clear.

    #1642776

    CS
    Participant

    Gotta go now YR but I think you should know by now I don’t disappear in a way to not have to answer (I’ve only done that when I felt the conversation was going nowhere and there was no one to talk to.) Im actually enjoying myself this time around. I address posts in order – holding in mid p 25.

    #1642938

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Chossid – Many Meshichist ascribe to the Rebbe powers that no man can have – Such as he’s omniscient and all knowing and all seeing, can live forever, can be communicated at all times – via the igros; some people – including a rebbe in Ohelei Torah – put a Rebbe picture in front of them while davening for hiskashrus (this has been confirmed to me by a reliable source); there are reports of people having in mind the Rebbe during shema for hiskashrus; the rampant posting of pictures everywhere – not merely gedolim pictures, but more like icons to remind you that he’s always watching you; reports of people asking the Rebbe for help NOT by his kever (Identifying Chabad blog has a list of such cases); the increasing instances of elokist imagery in Beis Moshiach and SIchos Hageulah; and I can write more. AND THESE ARE ALL MESHICHISTIM – NOT ELOKISTIM.
    But it’s hard to see why elokism wouldn’t be the logical conclusion of all this meshichist stuff. And this scares me alot.

    So I’ll repeat: While meshichism is not kefira, many meshichists have belief that go far beyond that.

    #1642970

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    CS, welcome back! Can you answer my igros question please?

    Thanks!

    #1643113

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “Also, we want moshiach anyway regardless of whether it’s the Rebbe or not. It’s definitely not a maker or breaker kind of thing.”

    GREAT! So at least you disagee with Reuven Wolf, who holds that the Rebbe being Moshaich is the foundation of all of yiddishkeit.

    Welcome back to Judaism!
    CS, Nachamtani.

    #1643157

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    “He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.”

    No offense, CS, but that’s a pretty cheap copout, considering the Rambam clearly writes Neherag, which implies that his criteria DOES apply to the dead. (If not, every Neherag could still theoretically be Moshiach Min Hameisim.”) Also, “Im lo Hatzliach Ad Koh” implies he’s dead, otherwise, how would we possibly know if he hasn’t succeeded? Maybe he will with more time?

    Thus, the correct reading is “Im Lo Asa Kol Zeh (and he’s dead) OR EVEN IF he did do all those things (build the bais hamikdash etc) but he was neherag, he still isn’t Mashiach, because he was Neherag.

    (This answers up the rambam with the Gemear of Anavim (the famous song): How could Moshiach stand on the bais hamikdash if in order to built itwe need a king, and if a king builds it, he’s Moshiach? The answer is that the king built it but he was killed. Hence, he wasn’t Moshaich.)

    Either way, the Rebbe does not fit the Rambam and is thus not Moshaich.

    #1643259

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No offense, CS, but that’s a pretty cheap copout,

    It’s complete intellectual dishonesty (maybe that’s what you call a copout?).

    #1643254

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.”
    That sounds very interesting. If this Rov could write it so I could understand exactly what he’s trying to say before trashing him, I’d appreciate it. If you could name the Rov, I’d appreciate it even more.

    #1643316

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That sounds very interesting

    No, unless “interesting” is a euphemism for “retarded”.

    It makes the Rambam entirely meaningless, because someone who doesn’t fit the criteria for Moshiach can simply die for a moment and then come back to life as Moshiach.

    #1643326

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yeshivishrockstar,

    Why couldn’t it be built by משיח בן יוסף who’ll be killed and משיח בן דוד still stand on it

    Alternatively why can’t anavim be talking about where we’re worthy for משיח and he comes with a ready made בית המקדש

    #1643357

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, we have to satisfy both since Aisov has to fall in the hand of Yosef but Moshiach comes from Dovid. We have to build the Beis Hamikdash together with Moshiach on which will come the one from fire.

    #1643355

    CS
    Participant

    YR:
    “In fact, as I feel the Rebbe was a gadol, I think that that’s exactly what happened this time too – we could have greeted Moshiach, but we were not worthy. Pity most of Chabad doesn’t think this way.”

    Well we actually do think moshiach would have come in nun beis or earlier if we were zoche. Just we don’t think it’s game over, as the Rebbe told us on koach Nissan nun aleph, it’s up to us regular people to make it finally happen. It’s an accumulative effort.

    #1643354

    RSo
    Participant

    rockstar (I hope you don’t mind me calling you that. The “yeshivish” part makes it less catchy!): “some people – including a rebbe in Ohelei Torah – put a Rebbe picture in front of them while davening for hiskashrus (this has been confirmed to me by a reliable source)”

    What about putting a picture of the rebbe in the pillow under the baby at a bris? No one sees the picture, so it can’t have been put there to bring a hisorerus by looking at it. It must be imbued with some “power”. Why is that not a problem associated with avodah zarah?

    I have also hear – I don’t know if it’s true or not – that lubavichers will never throw out a picture of their rebbe, and if they have to dispose of it they put it in genizah. Is this true?

    #1643352

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    CS, I am answering the meaning of the Zohar. The Torah encourages us to unite ואהבת לרעך כמוך the Tanya says that he is like you by having the same holy neshama, and be one which makes us one with Hashem as demonstrated above. It says מי כעמך ישראל כוי אחד this is the same one as it says כי חלק ה’ עמו Hashem is part of his nation.

    #1643351

    CS
    Participant

    Rso:
    “Learning Rambam is NOT learning halacha.”

    Yeah don’t worry for my weekly halacha learning I learn kitzur shulchan aruch, and I know halacha lmaase doesn’t always follow the Rambam. Nevertheless yad hachazaka most certainly is a halacha Sefer.

    #1643350

    CS
    Participant

    YR:
    “ChabadShlucha – Ths=is isn’t an attack: Just curious: We mentioned igros before:

    Some questions:
    1)Do you ask Hashem or The Rebbe when you ask
    the Igros?”

    Explain what you mean by that? Because the way it’s worded sounds like a trick question. It’s the same idea as writing a kvittel just in addition to sending to the Ohel I will often open an iggros afterwards as well.

    “2) If it’s the Rebbe, can you use
    a)Just the igrois
    b)any of The Rebbe’s seforim
    c)any sefer in the world
    d)any sign in the world (eg, “Rebbe, show me your listening”, and then you see a picture of the Rebbe)”

    As username, chossid and sechel said already opening the iggros after writing to the Rebbe doesn’t have a source from the Rebbe. Hence there are no “chassidishe Minhagim” regarding it like the criteria you put above.

    So why do I use it? The Rebbe said after the Frierdiker Rebbe was nistalek , that chassidim should continue to write letters to the (Frierdiker) Rebbe and “he will find a way to answer them.”

    So some chassidim after gimmel tammuz open an iggros which is a collection of the Rebbe’s answers to people on many many topics, to see if it has relevance to what they wrote, instead of waiting for the Rebbe to get back to them somehow. It works for many people, myself included (although depends on how good of a chossid I am at the time – I’ve had my journey / stages with that. There were times where the letters were completely random and times where I wrote in six questions and all six were answered in the letters I opened to etc…) which is why we continue to use it.

    When I didn’t write into the iggros as often I would see the Rebbe reply in other ways (such as the day before my wedding, when I went into the Rebbe’s room, I saw the video when I came out and the Rebbe was wishing a chosson from the city my husband is (not ch) mazal Tov for his wedding).

    Or simply the problem quickly resolves itself. Or other ways.

    “3) Can I ask just the Rebbe, or can I ask any of the Chabad rebbeim? For that matter, can I ask Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe?”

    I ask the Rebbe because he’s my Rebbe and I find myself in an abnormal situation where I can’t visit my Rebbe and ask him face to face – I would love to do that. But the questions I write to the Rebbe are not halachic or hashkafic questions. For those I go to my Rav or Mashpia as the Rebbe said. They’re life decisions, updates on my Avodas Hashem etc.

    “4)Why isn’t the Igros an issur deoiraisa of Lo Senachesh? Your asking for a sign from heaven (even from Hashem that’s assur, and Gorel Hagra was done very rarely and with lots of preperation precisely to avoid this issur)”

    As username said the goral hagra disproves this. If it was assur any amount of preparation wouldn’t help. But don’t think I take it flippantly. When I write to the Rebbe, I also take it very seriously and do my preparations such as setting aside a time with no distractions (not easy with kids), washing my hands, and not speaking during the time I’m writing (as is minhag chassidim), writing everything out fully and reading it and editing before I send it into the ohel. It usually takes me at least an hour. It’s nothing flippant. also it wasn’t my idea. Several highly respected lubavitcher family friends/ mashpiim write to the Rebbe and open the iggros as well. And have shared many inspiring stories.

    #1643349

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “That sounds very interesting

    No, unless “interesting” is a euphemism for “retarded”.”

    Clearly you didn’t read the rest of what I wrote. Interesting very often doesn’t have a positive connotation.

    #1643348

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.”

    Are you saying what I think you’re saying? That is, that when your rebbe was alive the Rambam paskened that he was mashiach, but now that you’re rebbe is (allegedly) dead, he is mashiach regardless and the Rambam’s psak doesn’t apply?

    #1643344

    RSo
    Participant

    Chossid on the term “Nossi Hador”: “So let’s just clarify, it’s not made up by the Rebbe, (because it’s mentioned in many heilikeh sforim,) just the Rebbe was the one that brought it up in the past generations”
    Which heilige seforim mention “Nossi Hador” in connection with someone who lived over the last hundreds, possibly thousand, years? I have searched and found nothing.

    “you can just look at how the Rebbe acted, for example…”
    Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others? Once again you are showing that your understanding and views are based solely on what you heard in lubavich. I can understand that that’s the case, and I don’t have a huge problem with it. The problem that I (and others on this forum) have with views like yours is that you really think that it will convince US that your rebbe was greater “than average”.

    “If you can answer those questions please, both of them”
    OK, but only because you insist: Yes, I think the mivtza of 7 mitvos Bnei Noach is a meshigass, and I have NEVER met any non-lubavicher who thinks otherwise. I’m happy to leave that topic alone because I’m not interested in davka offending.

    “The same it [not sleeping the entire sukkos] doesn’t make sense to you, it doesn’t make sense to me, but that’s what happened”
    The gemoro says it’s not possible, and the Rambam paskens that way. This is not an aggadata as it is nogeia to giving someone malkus in a beis din. There can’t be exceptions. So, in summary, I don’t believe what the mazkirim say. Anyhow, from all the stories the mazkirim were not with him 24/7. Furthermore, he had a bed (possibly a folding bed) in his room. I heard it from a lubavicher (I think he may even be a meshichist – not sure) who saw it.

    “you have to base you shita on some what of a talmid chochom, godel or tzadik…. first you should learn more of what a Rebbe is, and what the Rebbe was, what he was boki in and his day to day life. Second I think you are arguing not just with Lubavitch, but rather must of the chassidishe world, (which you said that you are chassidish.) ”
    I have most definitely discussed the matter with numerous chassidishe talmidei chachomim who, were they Litvish, would be considered gedolim, and I have arrived at my opinions based on those discussions.

    “you should check up the book חד בדרא ”
    You caught me on a sefer that I don’t recall having seen, so I looked it up. Written by a lubavicher and published by lubavich. Let me make a guess based on the title, it quotes all types of people who say that the lubavicher rebbe was chad bedoro. Did I get it right? Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?

    #1643343

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Coffee – How would you know if he was Moshiach Ben Yosef and Not Moshiach ben David? Simple – he was killed.

    Either way, even if you disapree with my pshat in Rambam, CS’s rovs answer is disingenuous to say the least.

    #1643328

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY: ” it’s not hard to imagine that on Sukkos he stayed up at night, as he often did during the week, and slept intermittently at other times”

    That doesn’t exempt him from sleeping in a sukkah as even a shinas arai, as opposed to achilas arai, is mechuyav. And we all know how makpid lubavich is on eating or drinking anything in a sukkah, so according to basic halacha he should have gone to even great length to have naps in the sukkah.

    Again, I’m not saying that the minhag of not sleeping in the sukkah is wrong, even though I don’t know where the minhag came from. I’m saying that the “lomdishe” excuse makes no sense at all.

    #1643387

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Coffee – How would you know if he was Moshiach Ben Yosef and Not Moshiach ben David? Simple – he was killed.

    That’s not what I said or asked

    This is what I said

    Why couldn’t it be built by משיח בן יוסף who’ll be killed and משיח בן דוד still stand on it

    Because you said

    Thus, the correct reading is “Im Lo Asa Kol Zeh (and he’s dead) OR EVEN IF he did do all those things (build the bais hamikdash etc) but he was neherag, he still isn’t Mashiach, because he was Neherag.

    (This answers up the rambam with the Gemear of Anavim (the famous song): How could Moshiach stand on the bais hamikdash if in order to built itwe need a king, and if a king builds it, he’s Moshiach? The answer is that the king built it but he was killed. Hence, he wasn’t Moshaich.)

    And to laskern,

    I don’t follow what you’re saying

    coffee addict, we have to satisfy both since Aisov has to fall in the hand of Yosef but Moshiach comes from Dovid. We have to build the Beis Hamikdash together with Moshiach on which will come the one from fire.

    I’m saying the בית המקדש coming from fire is already built in שמים through our מצות and moshiach will come with it

    But if we’re not worthy we have to build it with משיח בן יוסף who died and then משיח בן דוד takes over

    Sorry I’m using my phone to reply so can’t see what I’m writing so clearly and other people’s comments

    #1643386

    CS
    Participant

    Rso:
    “Yasher koach username for stating unequivocally that there is no source for using the Igros and that you think it is improper.

    You are certainly in the minority in lubavich.”

    They are not. Although the term improper I don’t think so but the rest is right on.

    #1643384

    CS
    Participant

    Rso:
    “They are relatives through marriage who were born in lubavich and who are considered “lubavich chassidish”in their lubavich communities.”
    “Then you haven’t been shopping on Kingston Avenue lately and you certainly haven’t walked into the lobby during a lubavicher chasunah for a looooong time.”

    Listen rso you’re relatives don’t sound very chassidish if your lubavitcher impression of tznius comes from them and judging by the posts you’ve written. I’ve been to one wedding that had untzniusdik mingling. And I didn’t feel comfortable there at all and left shortly after I came thanking Hashem that I had never experienced such a setting before and they werent my crowd of people. I have been to one lchaim of the same sort, also very uncomfortable. And one not chassidish friend of mine had her chosson hanging around her and she introduced him to her friends. Of course is was awkward but she’s not chassidish at all.

    So total that’s three instances. I’ve been to many lubavitcher weddings which were nothing of the sort. In fact my own wedding we missed the picture coming into the hall (by accident) because my husband was advised by a married chassidishe friend that it isn’t appropriate for him to walk into the hall with me into the women’s section before going off to the mens.

    I’ve also shopped on Kingston many times and you see all types. The most recent trip I made I was happily impressed by the amount of tzniusdikly dressed women – far majority.

    My lubavitcher friends who come from previously heimishe / chassidishe non lubavitch families tell me that in general the standard of tznius is lower than the general chassidish community, but that our chassidish girls far surpass them.

    Kimchis is famous for having seven kohanim gedolim. However we learn that many did like Kimchis but didn’t have such children. I learned that the reason why is because she did it out of an inner sensitivy to Hashem’s presence and yiras shomayim. Whereas the others wanted to have famous kids…

    In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. Whereas the communities that don’t work off of communal pressure but on actual yiras shomayim have similar rates to ours. It’s tough nowadays and we all work to make it better.

    #1643385

    CS
    Participant

    Np:
    “Wrong, because the issue is not the lack of tznius per se. It is the attitude towards that lack of tznius. Chabad’s policy towards tznius may be an acceptable for NCSY not for frum shuls and schools. We do not water down yiddishkeit to make it more user friendly. This approach has been tried by the conservative movement. They didn’t manage to conserve very much. That (I believe) is RSo’s point”

    Rso: “I disagree. We’re not talking about individual acts and individual nisyonos. We’re talking about the apparent shita of a movement, and there’s no excuse for having a bad shita.”

    I don’t know what you are both talking about. There is no shitta endorsing a lack of tznius. Aderabe, we start tznius from the age of three and the Rebbe discontinued the mitzvah tantz due to tznius concerns in our generation- both unusual outside of lubavitch. It definitely is a case of individual struggles.

    #1643421

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “ In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. ”

    How do you say things like that with a straight face?

    #1643468

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Clearly you didn’t read the rest of what I wrote. Interesting very often doesn’t have a positive connotation.

    Sorry about that. I read your post but did miss the word “trashed”.

    I don’t know why you’d need some unnamed rov to explain nonsense. As presented here, it’s total garbage and an embarrassment to the Rebbe, regardless of whether someone actually said it previously.

    #1643470

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    ““ In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. ”

    How do you say things like that with a straight face?”

    I for one agree. It’s not necessarily a good thing, but the fact is that in Lubavitch today, there is no such thing as communal pressure, rather איש הישר בעיניו יעשה, so when the stigma isn’t there, and someone still does the right thing, it shows on a certain depth of character, and strong principles.

    Societal pressure is a good thing, and one of the issues in many Lubavitcher communities today is that there simply isn’t any, but on the other hand, societal pressure also masks many underlying issues within the said society. I’m not going to illustrate my point, it resonates differently within every community.

    Halevai we had communal pressure in Crown Heights, and Halevai people would have the sensitivity and Bushah to dress properly even if they don’t believe in it.

    #1643511

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    SH – with all de respect (and I do mean that), you are either missing the point or avoiding it. I hear your point and it isn’t a bad one. My objection was, I thought obviously so, the first half. If she had respect for others, and wasn’t so full of herself and her ways, she would have written:
    “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, with the addition of communal pressure. ”

    What she in fact said, and I am assuming you honestly missed it, was that the non lubavitch chassidish are dressing tznius because of communal pressure, not kedusha or yiras shomayim. What kind of stupid comment is that? How does she say things like that and wonder why people are offended. Your point was a good one and adding that the pressure CAN take away from the mitzvah is right on. Her comment is just more indicative of her illness.

    #1643514

    Chossid
    Participant

    @Chabadshluch:
    This igros thing that you expect answers from the Rebbe is garbage. The Rebbe said on the friediker Rebbe that HE will find away to answer, not that YOU find him away to answer, after yud shvat the Rebbe said to ask brochois and daven by his kaver, not to ask his igros. And btw the Rebbe didn’t always answer everyone, so who said he answer you (not saying that the Rebbe way of answering can not come sometimes for the igros, could be that’s the way he decided to answer this time, but that’s not the way you ask the Rebbe, and that’s not, that the Rebbe has to answer. The way we know how ask a Rebbe is the Rebbe did it himself.

    So stop with the mishugasim.

    #1643524

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Syag, she never said that. Talk about reading comprehension, you missed a key word.
    I quote: “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not NECESSARILY an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. ”

    She never intimated or otherwise implied that non Lubavitch Chassidim dress Tznius not because of Yiras Shamayim, what she was saying is, is that sometimes dress is not a good enough indication of Yiras Shamayim, because outward behavior, and dress in particular are prone to being influenced by societal norms and pressure. This isn’t rocket science, it’s a very good observation.

    #1643530

    samthenylic
    Participant

    This was a few years before the Rebbe’s petrira. I knew a “tunkele” aide, who visited mainly Yiddishe seniors mainly in Crown Heights & Williamsburg. “Mesiach lefi Tumoh” she said that “The women in Williamsburg are much more modestly dressed than in Crown Heights”. Need I say more?

    #1643509

    Chossid
    Participant

    Which heilige seforim mention “Nossi Hador” in connection with someone who lived over the last hundreds, possibly thousand, years? I have searched and found nothing.

    They don’t connect it with someone particularly, but to say that such a musig exists, that there is a nossi hador in every generation (no matter how recent) that has a nitzutz of Moishe rabbeinu, like the mekoirios quoted above. Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself). I can understand your felling, but it’s not a made up thing.

    “Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”

    Very possible, but do you have any names?

    Yes, I think the mivtza of 7 mitvos Bnei Noach is a meshigass, and I have NEVER met any non-lubavicher who thinks otherwise.

    What exactly is the “meshigas”? That Hashem commanded them to keep the 7 mitzvos? Or to tell them about it?
    I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah, the same Hashem that commanded us do to 613 mitzvos commanded them to do 7 mitzvos.

    And what’s with this rambam???
    רמב”ם הל’ מלכים פ”ח
    וְכֵן צִוָּה משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִפִּי הַגְּבוּרָה לָכֹף אֶת כָּל בָּאֵי הָעוֹלָם לְקַבֵּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁנִּצְטַוּוּ בְּנֵי נֹחַ

    First I thought you don’t have to any respect for the Lubavitcher Rebbe (which in itself is surprising) and know it looks like you bechlal don’t have respect to the rambam, or anyone that doesn’t fit your personal shita and mindset. (Miss quoting Gemorahs;))

    And btw I met lots of non-Lubavitchers that agree with it.

    “The gemoro says it’s not possible, and the Rambam paskens that way. This is not an aggadata as it is nogeia to giving someone malkus in a beis din. There can’t be exceptions. So, in summary, I don’t believe what the mazkirim say. Anyhow, from all the stories the mazkirim were not with him 24/7. Furthermore, he had a bed (possibly a folding bed) in his room. I heard it from a lubavicher (I think he may even be a meshichist – not sure) who saw it.”

    Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.

    And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.

    “I have most definitely discussed the matter with numerous chassidishe talmidei chachomim who, were they Litvish, would be considered gedolim, and I have arrived at my opinions based on those discussions.”

    NAMES PLEASE

    “You caught me on a sefer that I don’t recall having seen, so I looked it up. Written by a lubavicher and published by lubavich. Let me make a guess based on the title, it quotes all types of people who say that the lubavicher rebbe was chad bedoro. Did I get it right?”

    If doesn’t make a difference who it was written by, it just states and has pictures of many great rabbeim meeting the Rebbe. Not necessarily Chad bedorah, but that they held of the Rebbe and asked him for brochois.

    PACTS WITH NAMES AND PICTURES.

    “Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”

    Very possible, if you can please name me some.

    For some reason you don’t have any………….

    #1643542

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yes Sechel. That IS what you said, and what you wish she said. But she didn’t say that. If she had, I wouldn’t have bothered commenting.

    You accuse me often of twisting words, well I have to say I see a plethora of ,”s/he didn’t mean that”, “can’t you read? nobody said that”, “why is everyone jumping on nothing” etc.

    Nothing we ever point out actually exists in your mind (plural your). If we have a good point against your rebbe we are being disrespectful to your rebbe and not deserving of an answer (forget that your rebbe is disrespectful to halacha), and if we have a good point about the ‘followers’/minhagim/manhigim they get brushed aside as not even worth addressing.

    Interesting tactic (prepare for the bellowing/insults, the third method of dealing with pointing things out)

    #1643540

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    ““The women in Williamsburg are much more modestly dressed than in Crown Heights”. Need I say more?”

    Yeah, no one ever argued with that.

    #1643551

    Chossid
    Participant

    Which heilige seforim mention “Nossi Hador” in connection with someone who lived over the last hundreds, possibly thousand, years? I have searched and found nothing.

    They don’t connect it with someone particularly, but to say that such a musig exists, that there is a nossi hador in every generation (no matter how recent) that has a nitzutz of Moishe rabbeinu, like the mekoirios quoted above. Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself). I can understand your felling, but it’s not a made up thing.

    “Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”

    Very possible, but do you have any names?

    Yes, I think the mivtza of 7 mitvos Bnei Noach is a meshigass, and I have NEVER met any non-lubavicher who thinks otherwise.

    What exactly is the “meshigas”? That Hashem commanded them to keep the 7 mitzvos? Or to tell them about it?
    I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah, the same Hashem that commanded us do to 613 mitzvos commanded them to do 7 mitzvos.

    And what’s with this rambam???
    רמב”ם הל’ מלכים פ”ח
    וְכֵן צִוָּה משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִפִּי הַגְּבוּרָה לָכֹף אֶת כָּל בָּאֵי הָעוֹלָם לְקַבֵּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁנִּצְטַוּוּ בְּנֵי נֹחַ

    First I thought you don’t have to any respect for the Lubavitcher Rebbe (which in itself is surprising) and know it looks like you bechlal don’t have respect to the rambam, or anyone that doesn’t fit your personal shita and mindset. (Miss quoting Gemorahs;))

    And btw i met personally many non-Lubavitchers that agree with the Rebbe regarding this.

    “The gemoro says it’s not possible, and the Rambam paskens that way. This is not an aggadata as it is nogeia to giving someone malkus in a beis din. There can’t be exceptions. So, in summary, I don’t believe what the mazkirim say. Anyhow, from all the stories the mazkirim were not with him 24/7. Furthermore, he had a bed (possibly a folding bed) in his room. I heard it from a lubavicher (I think he may even be a meshichist – not sure) who saw it.”

    Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles to the same is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.

    And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.

    “I have most definitely discussed the matter with numerous chassidishe talmidei chachomim who, were they Litvish, would be considered gedolim, and I have arrived at my opinions based on those discussions.”

    NAMES PLEASE

    “You caught me on a sefer that I don’t recall having seen, so I looked it up. Written by a lubavicher and published by lubavich. Let me make a guess based on the title, it quotes all types of people who say that the lubavicher rebbe was chad bedoro. Did I get it right?”

    If doesn’t make a difference who it was written by, it just states and has pictures of many great rabbeim meeting the Rebbe. Not necessarily Chad bedorah, but that they held of the Rebbe and asked him for brochois.

    PACTS WITH NMAES AND PICTURES.

    “Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”

    Very possible, if you can please name me some.

    For some reason you don’t have any………….

    #1643597

    username123321
    Participant

    @np

    Furthermore, this case is off the subject. The Rabbonim instituted the practice you are objecting to, they are not coming to justify it expo facto.

    And @rso

    My point was not about not sleeping in the sukkah, it was about the weird lomdus your rebbe used to explain it, a point that was recently reiterated by rockstar.

    There’s a general klal that you don’t need as strong of a Svara to legitimize an existing Minhag than to innovate a new one.

Viewing 50 posts - 1,301 through 1,350 (of 2,053 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.