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laskern
Chossid, to answer your question, look at the Rambam Hilchas Lulav 8,15 and the Magid Mishneh there ויעשה הטוב מצד שהוא טוב do the good for its own sake. See the Rambam Hilchas Teshuva 10th Perek. Pirkei Avos שכר מצוה מצוה the mitzva itself is its own rewards.I totally agree with you.
Just if you can explain to me what does these quotes mean? Especially שכר מצוה מצוה?Just want to let everyone know, that obviously we should to mitzvos because it’s Hashems rotzion.
Which means doing a mitzah leshmah, (not that I should merits to be I gan even) and learn Torah lemah (not to learn to be come a godel)
I’m asking my questions to understand how you guys come to the conclusion that Moshiach and Hashems rotzion are a stirah.
So if you can please explain it to mehow you guys come to the conclusion that Moshiach and Hashems rotzion are a stirah.
Nobody said it was a stirah.
The Midrash Shmuel on Pirkei Avos says that the reward of doing a mitzva is not doing another mitzva but the fact that we have the opportunity to do the mitzva itself.
CS: “All you people saying don’t do mitzvos to bring moshiach – the era of moshiach is the time period when we’ll be able to serve Hashem fully (as in 613 mitzvos vs. under 300, all shvatim vs. 2.5, in eretz Yisrael with the Halachos of it with the beis Hamikdash etc.). So anyone who cares about doing mitzvos to fulfill ratzon Hashem should want to bring the era of moshiach asap so we can do exactly that. That’s actually what the era of moshiach even is!”
And it’s still not relevant. We are meant to do the mitzvos ONLY because they are what Hashem commanded. Not even, so to speak,to “help Hashem out” in any way, even by revealing Him clearer to the world.
It seems that lubavichers don’t realize that this is one point where you are against the entire world. I’m sure you can handle that, but you have to realize that this is not just a case where we have differing views on life. Your view is something we believe is wrong and dangerous.
The Rambam mentioned above Hilchas Teshuva 8,2 says ועושה האמת מפני שהוא אמת he doesn’t do mitzvos for rewards but he does it because it is the right thing to do.
Chossid, to profound101, not to me: “What’s does it mean doing Hashems rotzion? What are we accomplishing in this world by doing mitzvos?
And what is the תכלית בריאת העולם?
Why is rotzion and Moshiach a stirah?”Here’s what I would answer if you had asked me (and maybe profound101) will agree.
Doing Hashem’s ratzon means doing what he tells us to do, and to do it properly lesheim Shomayim means to do it because He said so regardless of His reasons for telling us to do so.
By doing mitzvos lesheim Shomayim we accomplish that we have done what he told us to do on the highest level. What we accomplish “in this world” and the תכלית of בריאת העולם is really none of our business, except on an intellectual sense. On a practical sense, however, it should be ignored as we are here only to do what Hashem says and ONLY BECAUSE He says so.
So “rotzoin” and “Mashiach” are indeed a stira if you mix the latter into your reason for doing the former. It’s fine to realize that when we do things lesheim Shomayim Mashiach is closer, but it’s not find to perform mitzvos for that reason.
I believe this is basic hashkofa of everybody outside Lubavich, and I even wonder if it was not basic Lubavich hashkofa before lubavich got “obsessed” with Mashiach. Could you bring me lubavich sources from, say, a hundred years ago that say otherwise? Please note, I am asking for sources that say that the REASON we perform mitzvos is to bring Mashiach, not that our performance brings Mashiach and that that is a great thing.
Laskern:
Sounds good. In Tanya it explains it all derech the same way, ( just in kabola terms) that the sechar of each mitzvah, is the gelui that we bring to the world through performing a that mitzvah, שכר המצוה היא המצוה עצמה. If I remember correctly.
Which question are answering?DaasYochid ☕
“Nobody said it was a stirah.”
For some reason I see from there words that their implying that’s it’s a stirah. Could be I’m wrong.
Can you explain to me what they are saying?*Their
Can you explain to me what they are saying?
I think they’re saying that doing mitzvos for the purpose of bringing Moshiach, meaning with that primary intention and goal, is a stirah to doing mitzvos with the intention and goal of following Hashem’s command.
Not that they aren’t both His ratzon, just that our motive for doing mitzvos is to fulfill the specific ratzon that we perform those mitzvos, not the ratzon that the geulah arrives (although it might in fact hasten it).
nobody said it was a stirah. We said you need to do mitzvos for Hashem’s sake because He said so, and that act will bring moshiach. You said we need to bring mitzvos to bring moshiach. It is not our job to bring moshiach, it is our job to wait for moshiach. We do Hashem’s will, and HE will bring Moshiach.
SL, it is not our job to bring Moshiach but it is our job not to curtail, hold back, his coming by our actions and behavior.
Laskern, what if I knew that performing a certain mitzvah would delay the arrival of Moshiach?
DY, example please.
SL. you covered with your last statement my statement. When we do Hashem’s will, we will not hold back the coming of Moshiach. His will is to love your fellow Jew like yourself since we all have the same holy neshama, and thereby correct sinas chinom which curtails his coming.
The example isn’t the point. I’m being hypothetical.
I recently posted the following in the middle of a longish reply to Chosid: “Please note, I am asking for sources that say that the REASON we perform mitzvos is to bring Mashiach”
I perhaps was not clear enough in what I wrote. What I should have written to be clearer is: Please note, I am asking for sources that say that OUR INTENTION in performing mitzvos should be to bring Mashiach.
laskern: ” it is not our job to bring Moshiach but it is our job not to curtail, hold back, his coming by our actions and behavior”
I disagree. Our job is to do what Hashem tells us to do, and not to be concerned what the results of our behavior will be. The fact is that our behavior does indeed affect the coming or delaying of Mashiach, but it is not “our job” to take that into account.
A friend showed me a few years ago from a well-known early Rebbe something along the line that if the result of doing what Hashem wants is that we will go to Gehinnom then we should do it regardless. I hope to see that friend today and ask him for the source.
Here is part of Shu”t Chasam Sofer Y”D 356:
אך א”א לי בשום אופן להאמין שיהי’ גאולתינו א’ מעיקרי הדת ושאם יפול היסוד תפול החומה חלילה ושנאמר אלו הי’ ח”ו חטאנו גורמים שיגרש אותנו גירוש עולם וכדס”ל לר”ע בעשרת השבטים שהם נדחים לעולם המפני זה רשאים הם לפרוק עול מלכות השמים או לשנות קוצו של יו”ד אפי’ מדברי רבנן חלילה אנחנו לא נעבוד ה’ לאכול פרי הארץ ולשבוע מטוב’ לעשות רצונך אלקי חפצתי ועכ”פ ועל כל אופן עבדי ד’ אנחנו יעשה עמנו כרצונו וחפצו ואין זה עיקר ולא יסוד לבנות עליו שום בנין אך כיון שעיקר יסוד הכל להאמין בתורה ובנביאים ושם נאמר גאולתינו האחרונה בפ’ נצבים ובפ’ האזינו כמ”ש רמב”ן שם והרבה מזה בדברי נביאים אם כן מי שמפקפק על הגאולה הלז הרי כופר בעיקר האמנת התורה והנביאים.In a nutshell, the Chasam Sofer is saying that belief in Mashiach is no more a basic tenet of being a Yid than belief in anything else it says in the Torah, and he refuses to accept it as an ikkar emunah. He writes that even if our aveiros caused Hashem to c”v say that we will forever be lost and never redeemed it will not exempt us from keeping Torah and mitzvos.
Btw this is not the source that I referred to earlier that I still have to ask my friend about.
Small response to many of the above. (@Sam specifically):
From Chapter 36 of Tanya:
והנה תכלית השתלשלו’ העולמו’ וירידתם ממדרגה למדרגה אינו בשביל עולמות העליוני’ הואיל ולהם ירידה מאור פניו ית’ אלא התכלית הוא עו”הז התחתון שכך עלה ברצונו ית’ להיות נחת רוח לפניו ית’ כד אתכפיא ס”א ואתהפך חשוכא לנהורא שיאיר אור ה’ אין סוף ב”ה במקום החשך והס”א של כל עוה”ז כולו ביתר שאת ויתר עז ויתרון אור מן החשך מהארתו בעולמות עליונים שמאיר שם ע”י לבושים והסתר פנים המסתירים ומעלימים אור א”ס ב”ה שלא יבטלו במציאות. ולזה נתן הקב”ה לישראל את התורה שנקר’ עוז וכח וכמארז”ל שהקב”ה נותן כח בצדיקים לקבל שכרם לעתיד לבא שלא יתבטלו במציאות ממש באור ה’ הנגלה לעתיד בלי שום לבוש כדכתיב ולא יכנף עוד מוריך [פי’ שלא יתכסה ממך בכנף ולבוש] והיו עיניך רואות את מוריך וכתיב כי עין בעין יראו וגו’ וכתיב לא יהיה לך עוד השמש לאור יומם וגו’ כי ה’ יהיה לך לאור עולם וגו’. ונודע שימות המשיח ובפרט כשיחיו המתים הם תכלית ושלימות בריאות עולם הזה שלכך נברא מתחילתו:
And 37:
והנה תכלית השלימות הזה של ימות המשיח ותחיית המתים שהוא גילוי אור א”ס ב”ה בעו”הז הגשמי תלוי במעשינו ועבודתנו כל זמן משך הגלות כי הגורם שכר המצוה היא המצוה בעצמה כי בעשייתה ממשיך האדם גילוי אור א”ס ב”ה מלמעלה למטה להתלבש בגשמיות עוה”ז בדבר שהיה תחלה תחת ממשלת קליפת נוגה ומקבל חיותה ממנה שהם כל דברים הטהורים ומותרי’ שנעשית בהם המצוה מעשיית כגון קלף התפילין ומזוזה וספר תורה וכמאמר רז”ל לא הוכשר למלאכת שמים אלא טהורים ומותרים בפיך. וכן אתרוג שאינו ערלה:
Rso, what I said is no stira to the Chasam Sofer where there are 13 emunos enumerated in yigdal according to
the Rambam, and no one is more important than the other. We don’t do anything to bring it שלא ידחקו את הקץ don’t push it, but at the same time do not do anything to hold it back like sinas chinom.There is a girsah there שלא ירחקו את הקץ not to do anything to further away, delay the redemption.
@username – Of course we do mizvos, & HKB”H will give us s’char, still we are admonished “Al tihju keavodim …” we don’t do mizvos in order to get s’cher, likewise we don’t do mizvos to bring Moshiach. Of course we all hope & yearn for Moshiach, but that should not be the reason of doing mizvos. CLEAR?
we don’t do mizvos in order to get s’cher, likewise we don’t do mizvos to bring Moshiach.
First of all, Moshiach isn’t a Schar per se. It’s a different stage in Avodas Hashem.
הענין הנה אמרז”ל אין בין עולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שעבוד בלבד כי ימות המשיח אינו עוה”ב שלאחר התחיה. שזהו מתן שכרן של צדיקים. אבל ימות המשיח הוא בבחי’ היום לעשותם ולא לקבל שכרן. ועיקר היום לעשותם ותכלית השלימות של המעשה יהיה בימות המשיח.
(Torah Ohr D’h אסרי לגפן עירה ולשורקה בני אתונו).
תחיית המתים is סחר.
It’s also why the world was created: If you look at Chapter 36 of Tanya, it says there true דירה בתחתונים will be when Moshiach will come and תחיית המתים will happen.
So sure, we do Mitzvos because that’s what Hashem wants, but at the same time, Hashem wants a דירה בתחתונים, which means that Hashem wants Moshiach. All we’re saying is that these three “wants” are connected.
Chabad Shlucha:
Here are the lyrics to the song “The Rebbe Sees” on Oh Rebbe 2 (This CD is on Amazon, for those who want to listen to themselves.
“The Rebbe is,
The Rebbe lives,
The Rebbe cares,
The Rebbe hears,
The Rebbes sees,
The Rebbe leads,
He is concerned for all our needs.The Rebbe is,
The Rebbe gives,
The Rebbe sees,
The Rebbe speaks,
The Rebbe smiles…”Keep in mind this CD was recorded after 3 Tammuz. This CD was tremendously popular in Chabad. The low part lyrics are even worse.
ChabadShlucha – How can you raise your kids with such lyrics and not have them think the Rebbe is a god? I understand that you don’t believe that, but your kids will!!!
I have heard young meshichists say “Beezras Hashem V’harebbe” (granted, it was in tzfat). It’s just one step before JUST the Rebbe.CS, did you ever read the Rambam about how A”Z came to the world (via the dor of Enosh?) It fits the Rebbe far better than the Moshiach Rambams. In fact, it fits without twisting at all.
Username quoted Tanya at length, and in a later post he wrote “So sure, we do Mitzvos because that’s what Hashem wants, but at the same time, Hashem wants a דירה בתחתונים, which means that Hashem wants Moshiach. All we’re saying is that these three “wants” are connected.”
The point that I was making, and which I said I believe is the hashkofa of all non-lubavichers (and, I guess, all lubavichers before they became “obsessed” with Mashiach) is that the entire concept of DIrah Batachtonim is what Hashem wants – נתאווה לו יתברך – but it is NOT why we perform mitzvos. The ONLY reason we perform mitzvos is because Hashem commanded them. His reason for doing so is not our reason for performing them.
To use a very simple moshol hedyot, a mother tells her son to eat breakfast. Her reason for doing so is so that he will have the necessary strength to function properly at school. But as far as the Torah is concerned his ONLY reason for eating breakfast is to be mekayem kibbud eim and do what his mother says.
If he starts making cheshbonos that the reason his mother told him to eat is to give him strength, he is very likely to decide that he has enough strength, or that he will eat later, and the like, and he may not be mekayem kibbud eim.My friend showed me the source that I mentioned. It’s from the Chidushei Horim and it’s in regards to the Meraglim.
He explains that they wanted to stay in the Midbor was because their Avodas Hashem would be better there, but the Chidushei Horim explains that it is not their business to make a cheshbon like that.
מאחר שהקב”ה ציוה לבוא שמה יהי’ איך שיהי’ אף לירש גיהנם
“Since HKB”H commanded them to go there, regardless of the outcome [they have to fulfill his command] even if the result is going to Gehinnom.”So sure, we do Mitzvos because that’s what Hashem wants, but at the same time, Hashem wants a דירה בתחתונים, which means that Hashem wants Moshiach. All we’re saying is that these three “wants” are connected.
Username,
I see you don’t understand what syag is saying
Hashem is ( מטיב (רצה הקב״ה לזכות את ישראל a
But we do מצות for Hashem not for שכר
All we’re saying is that these three “wants” are connected.
No, that’s not all you’re saying. You’re saying we’re supposed to do mitzvos with the intention and purpose of bringing Moshiach.
coffeeaddict: “But we do מצות for Hashem not for שכר”
I hope what you mean is that we SHOULD do mitzvos…
Halevai we did mitzvos even not lesheim Shomayim…
To use a very simple moshol hedyot, a mother tells her son to eat breakfast. Her reason for doing so is so that he will have the necessary strength to function properly at school. But as far as the Torah is concerned his ONLY reason for eating breakfast is to be mekayem kibbud eim and do what his mother says.
That would be true if Hashem (in a Midrash) had never told us the whole דירה בתחתונים thing. But obviously Hashem wanted us to know what Mitzvos accomplish, or He wouldn’t have told us.
If he starts making cheshbonos that the reason his mother told him to eat is to give him strength, he is very likely to decide that he has enough strength, or that he will eat later, and the like, and he may not be mekayem kibbud eim.
That would be true if it would be a side reason. But as learning Torah and doing Mitzvos is making a דירה בתחתונים, and a דירה בתחתונים can only be accomplished through learning Torah and doing Mitzvos, the danger isn’t there.
He explains that they wanted to stay in the Midbor was because their Avodas Hashem would be better there, but the Chidushei Horim explains that it is not their business to make a cheshbon like that.
Interesting. The Alter Rebbe asked the same question, and gave a slightly different answer (Likkutei Torah 37b – 38b)
יש להקדים שרש ענין המעשה דמרגלים למעלה במה שלא רצו ליכנס לארץ ישראל וגינו אותה כו’. הנה מבואר בע”ח דשרש המרגלים הוא מבחי’ עולם המחשב’ הנק’ לאה כי הם היו מדור המדבר שנקראו דור דעה ועל כן לא רצו להשפיל א”ע ליכנס לארץ ישראל שהוא מבחי’ עולם הדבור הנק’ רחל. ולהבין ביאור הדברים הללו בהיות ידוע שעיקר המצוה בכניסת א”י הוא כמ”ש לעשות בארץ כו’. דהיינו לקיים שם התורה והמצות כי יש כמה מצות שתלוי’ בארץ דוקא כמו בנין בית המקדש ודומיהן כו’. והענין הוא כי הנה עיקר התורה והמצות הוא להבדיל בין הטהור ובין הטמא דהיינו בחי’ ברורים לברר הטוב מן הרע שעל ידי השבירה דמלכין קדמאין דתהו נפלו רפ”ח ניצוצין דתהו ונתלבשו בנוגה להיות מעורבי’ טו”ר כידוע והם צריכים עלייה והיינו ע”י שיתבררו ויופרדו תחלה מן הרע הקשור בהם ואז יהיו יכולים אחר כך להתעלות למעלה למקור שרשן והוא ענין המצות מעשיות מ”ע ומל”ת שע”י הל”ת נפרד הטוב מן הרע וע”י העשיה הוא בחי’ עליית הטוב למעלה כו’
ד ואחר כל הנ”ל יובן ג”כ ענין המעשה דמרגלים שלא רצו ליכנס לא”י מפני ששרשם הוא מבחי’ לאה עולם המחשבה כו’ (כמ”ש בע”ח שער הארת המוחין פ”א) וטענו למה צריכים לירד בבחי’ עולם הדבור שהוא בחי’ מל’ דאצילות סוף כל דרגין כו’ בכדי לקיים שם התורה ומצות בדבור ובמעשה שעי”ז יהיה בחי’ גילוי אור א”ס שיבקעו האורות כו’ הלא זה אפשר לקיים גם ע”י התורה ומצות ברוחניות ולא בעשייה גשמיות דהיינו כי גם בעולם המחשבה יש כל פרטים הנמצאים בדבור ובמעשה מאחר שהדבור נמשך מן המחשבה. וא”כ כל מצוה ומצוה שמקיים בדבור או במעשה גשמיות יכול הוא לקיימה ברוחניות בבחינת מחשבה. ועי”ז יהיה ג”כ למעלה בחי’ גילוי אור א”ס כו’.
אך באמת היו מוטעים שהעיקר הוא לעשותם בארץ דוקא וכמארז”ל כמה תפלות התפלל משה ליכנס לא”י ושאלו וכי לאכול מפירותיה היה צריך אלא לקיים את המצות התלוים בה והיינו שצריך להמשיך את האורות העליונים שיבקעו את הכלים כו’ שאי אפשר לגרום המשכה זו אם לא ע”י מעשה דוקא ולא במחשבה כו’.
In short, the Alter Rebbe holds that the meraglim’s issue is that they didn’t want to make the דירה בתחתונים.
But we do מצות for Hashem not for שכר
We don’t (or at least, we shouldn’t) make a דירה בתחתונים for our benefit. And Moshiach isn’t solely for our benefit. Like the famous Rambam:
לֹא נִתְאַוּוּ הַחֲכָמִים וְהַנְּבִיאִים יְמוֹת הַמָּשִׁיחַ. לֹא כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּשְׁלְטוּ עַל כָּל הָעוֹלָם. וְלֹא כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּרְדּוּ בָּעַכּוּ”ם. וְלֹא כְּדֵי שֶׁיְּנַשְּׂאוּ אוֹתָם הָעַמִּים. וְלֹא כְּדֵי לֶאֱכל וְלִשְׁתּוֹת וְלִשְׂמֹחַ. אֶלָּא כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּהְיוּ פְּנוּיִין בַּתּוֹרָה וְחָכְמָתָהּ
username: “That would be true if Hashem (in a Midrash) had never told us the whole דירה בתחתונים thing. But obviously Hashem wanted us to know what Mitzvos accomplish, or He wouldn’t have told us.”
Maybe part of His test is to let us know why he gave us the mitzvos but for us to do them without taking His reason into account.
I would still like a source, especially a lubavicher source of a few generations ago, that says we should do mitzvos for His reason.And regarding that (too) long piece of Tanya you quoted: assuming you got the “in short” right (sorry, but the quote is too long for me to go through online) I believe it’s exactly the same point the Chidusheir Horim was making, just in different words.
From the fact that no one has responded to my quote of Sefer Chassidim – no one, that is, aside from CS whose sole response was that it was taken out of context (which it wasn’t!) – can I assume that the lubavichers on this forum realize that it is problematic for them and that they don’t know how to respond?
In general there are two levels of doing mitzvos, there is doing so because of קבלת עול – נעשה, and then doing so because of טעם ודעת – נשמע.
First and foremost we do Hashems rotzion, because that’s what Hashem command us to do, whether we understand the reason or not, whether it makes sense or not, we are בטול להקב”ה כעבד לאדון, whatever he says we do, with no exceptions.
Then there is נשמע understanding why Hashem command us do the mitzvos, what’s the reason for them, and what do we accomplish through doing them.
So yes 100% we so because Hashem told us do so (whatever we understand otherwise, whether we hasten Moshiachs arrival or not) but then when you understand why Hashem is commanding us do to so, we can get fully involved, with a chayus, and a geshmak, and אהבה.
We can’t just stay by the level of יראה we need to get to so also with אהבה.
The more we understand who Hashem is, why did he created yeddin, what’s his plan in the world, and what we accomplish through listening to him, the more we have a chayus in Torah and mitzvos. But that doesn’t take away the fact that we do the mitzvos Because Hashem told us so, it just adds, that not only you do it because you have קבלת עול but you also have a chayus on it.So when people say we should mitzvos because it brings Moshiach closer, is not a wrong statement, (just like saying that we rest on shabbos because that’s what Hashem did). Because that’s what gievs him a chayus to do the mitzvos, that he has the zchus to bring Hashem more in this world thought Torah a mitzvos.
Every mitzvah we do, brings a gelui in this world, which eventually will bring the ultimate gelui, which will be when the beis hamikdash will be rebuilt.
When Moshiach comes, that’s when we made the complete dirah for Hashem.
And that happens through us doing mitzvos.
And this is more Hashems sake that he wants a dirah in this world, not for shechar and aoinesh.
Moshiach is not our personal gratification, even though we will gain a lot, it’s merely just because Hashem wanted so, and we have the zchus to fullfil him request.
As long as where on golus the shechina is in golus, שכינתא בגלותא. And we have the zchus to get the shechina out of golus.If it’s not our business to understand the reason for mitzvos, why did Hashem tell us reasons for some of the mitzvos, why did the mekubolim and choikrim, be miayin in the reason for the creation of the world, gadlus Hashem, reason from mitzvos.
Again don’t get me wrong, we do mitzvahs out of קבלת עול, and that’s the first and foremost why we keep them, no matter what we accomplish, but to add and give a chayus to do them and not just do it with a dry spirit, there is a reason to know the reason behind them.
I would love to write and explain more, just impossible to type it all up. It’s pretty much Tanya and 600 page ספר מאמרים המשך תרס”ו from the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe.
Rso,
Yes that’s what I meant
“He explains that they wanted to stay in the Midbor was because their Avodas Hashem would be better there, but the Chidushei Horim explains that it is not their business to make a cheshbon like that.”
Slightly off topic, in a very famous Sicha, the Rebbe explains why they thought their Avoda would be better in the Midbar than in Eretz Yisrael. I won’t do justice to it in a few lines, but the basic idea is that in the Midbar the Yidden had everything they needed, and could serve the Eibeshter with no distractions of physical life. In Eretz Yisrael however, they would need to work the land, and get involved with Mitzvos Maasiyos. Their Svarah made sense, but the ultimate Kavana is to make a Dirah B’tachtonim, by being in Eretz Yisrael, they would have to bring Avodas Hashem into the material world, by elevating Gashmiyus and utilizing it for Kedusha. Once the world is sufficiently elevated and refined, the Tachlis HaShleimus of Dirah B’tachtonim will come about, the Shchina resting in this world, B’galuy, with Bias Moshiach Tzidkeinu.Does the Rebbe hold like the Yerushalmi Maaser Sheni (5,2) that the building of the Beis Hamikdash will be before the coming of Meshiach?
” In short the Rebbe doesn’t distract from Hashem anymore than Rabi Nachman distracts from Hashem on rosh hashana”
Yes, when you’re in a crunch for time, the best way to get your point across is to just slander another Rabbi/community. That’s always worked for you in the past.
Before you guys get a chance to scream, “yeah, but, but I don’t see you guys saying anything about these other communities here!!!” That’s because this thread happens to be about Chabad. The CR has no shortage of threads about Uman Rosh Hashanah, but that is not this thread.
CS, becuase I have been in both Chabad and Breslov, I can tell you there’s no comparision between the two. A”Z-like statements are rampant in Chabad, no-matter how many times you justify them, while in Breslov they’re lacking. Please don’t use us as a defense.
The Mainstram Breslovers kicked Berland out, and he is the craziest of them all kefirawise. If Chabad would have the guts to do the same, I would stop harping on it.
And I know you’ve responded to me a number of times, that wasn’t the purpose of my posts. The purpose was to show the onlookers that I’m not exaggerating.
Remember, CS, you started this thread by saying I find that people completely misunderstand when Lubavitchers say things like the above, and panic, or happily relegate us as kofrim, depending on their education.” My purpose was to show they’re not panicking, it’s not dependant on their education, and that statements that most other groups in klal yisrael would deign kefira are rampant and commonplace in Chabad, and dismissed as harmless. I think that with my posts and your responses show that my sentiment is 100% accurate.
“If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs”
Who says this hasn’t happened? I think it did, based on quite a few Chabadniks I know.
The sefer Aim Habonim Samecha from Rav Yisochor Teichtal Hy”d says that on top of the Beis Hamikdash we build will come the one with fire.
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