The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

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  • #1616487

    StuartW
    Participant

    CS, you have a division within Chabad between the Moshichists and the non Moshichists.

    Clearly the Rebbe, notwithstanding the amazing work he accomplished, left plenty of room for uncertainty.

    Furthermore, I think it is safe to say that virtually all controversy surrounding Chabad surrounds the topic if mochiach.

    If I were in Chabad, I would take this as a clear message to from my customers to free up the shelf space for better selling products.

    #1616642

    RSo
    Participant

    To clarify the quote of the Chofetz Chaim – apparently it was in a Kol Korei issued in 1914 – he says that we should demand the geulah like a worker who demands his wages after completing his work properly. To demand Mashiach merely because we are in pain (or even because we claim to feel Hashem’s pain in the galus) without doing our utmost in Torah and Mitzvos is NOT what the Chofetz Chaim meant. Read the rest of his works and this will be very clear.

    #1616685

    Toi
    Participant

    @RSo- Thanks. Taking things out of context is an effective way of spinning what people really said. Watch the media do it all time.

    #1616722

    RSo – that was exactly my point regarding the diploma moshol.

    #1616725

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I can respond tomorrow if desired

    #1616745

    StuartW
    Participant

    If you mean me, CS, no need to respond to me.
    Enjoy the chabad thingy. I watched for 10 minutes then got bored. But if i were a shliach it would be my highlight of the year i am sure

    #1616763

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Thanks 🙂

    #1616872

    kaiserW
    Participant

    RSO,
    This is a classic example of ‘moving the goalposts’
    At first, you were claiming that one can not demand anything from Hashem and it is a wrong thing to do.
    Now, after being shown a source from one of the gedolei yisroel, you say it is fine to demand, but only in certain circumstances, (which parenthetically, you made up based on your understanding)

    I would love to have a honest discussion/debate. To do that some intellectual honesty is necessary. Is that a possibility?

    #1616937

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    OTOH, very happy to see that chofetz chaim, as it goes to show its a Jewish thing, not just a lubavitch thing, which is what I was saying all along.

    #1616936

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    +1 kaiserw.

    Another double standard here is that you state The Rebbe isn’t a good enough source for you/ you want to see where the Rebbe bases it. I actually brought sources – you don’t address them. But the chofetz chaim is a great source…

    If you want to see the mekoros in Torah where the Torah giants base their hashkafa, then address the sources. Whether it comes from the Rebbe or the Chofetz Chaim. And the same way its unthinkable to say the chofetz chaim isn’t good enough for me, it should be the same for the Rebbe., who was not just a learned person in Torah, but a leader to all Yiddin , chief Rabbis, chassidish Rebbes, sefardim, askenazim, litvish and not yet frum alike…

    Its insulting to display biases so openly and try to guise it as intellectual discussion.

    That’s why I can respond point by point but don’t see a need unless I feel someone can benefit from it. But applying double standards doesn’t give me much hope for fair learned discussion.

    The same thing happened on another thread. Up in arms that we go to the Ohel and ask brachos, the Rebbe isn’t goes enough. Sources brought and ignored. Oh the Belz do it too. Respectful acceptance. A bit sickening and for sure draining of desire to respond which is why I stopped in that thread.

    I suppose if there is an honest onlooker who wants a response to anything I’ll be happy to respond as a respectful learned discussion, not a barely disguised attack on lubavitch. I can respond to you too, Rso, if you see the error of the way you’ve been corresponding. Toi I’m afraid it’s too far gone but I’ll be very happy proven wrong.

    #1616929

    RSo
    Participant

    kaiserW the goalposts haven’t moved. I’m the one who found the quote of the Chofetz Chaim and I’m telling you the way he said it from the text. You don’t have to like it but that’s the way it is.

    Furthermore, this is nothing like what the Lubavicher rebbe said,when he said, and this time you can be the one to verify it from the sources, that there is no reason that Mashiach hasn’t come. The Chofetz Chaim said repeatedly that first we have to keep Mitzvos, stressing Shabbos, Taharas Hamishpacha, Kashrus etc.

    Not that the L rebbe didn’t agree that those mitzvos have to be kept, but he did NOT make the demand for Mashiach dependent on their fulfillment.

    #1617012

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “… it goes to show its a Jewish thing, not just a lubavitch thing”.

    Aha! So you finally admit that lubavich isn’t Jewish!

    JUST JOKING!!!

    #1617013

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    CS: Your response to RSo’s Chofetz Chaim proof is telling. I think you guys are so used to the Chabad Rebbe being a daas yochid on everything that you don’t know how to react when someone brings a proof that might agree with him. This whole debate is on a shittah of the Chabad Rebbe, don’t you see how it doesn’t make sense to bring proofs from the Chabad Rebbe in such a debate? If you refuse to bring any source other than the Rebbe (probably because of the whole “bittul to the Rebbe” thing) then you can’t really expect to get anywhere debating people you will bring sources from anywhere. It’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

    As far as the difference between what the Chofetz Chaim says and what the Rebbe says, it does kind of seem like semantics based on how it’s being represented here. To me, the biggest proof is in the pudding: whatever Chabad did differently in their approach to awaiting Moshiach caused Meshichism; our approach didn’t. No matter how much people avoiding bringing that in, that’s what this debate is really about.

    #1617020

    StuartW
    Participant

    CS, there is nothing wrong if something is only a Lubavich thing. As a lubavicher chasid you rightly consider the rebbe as a gadol and a source in his own right.
    If other’s don’t accept that as good enough for them, that is their right.
    Everyone gets to decide what gadol is right for them
    Nobody gets to put the other’s gadol down.
    This is not a schoolyard contest of my gadol is bigger than yours.

    #1617028

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    I agree stuartw. So actually if you look at the title of this thread, I was explaining our shittos. If someone says that’s really great just my Gadol/ Rebbe has a different approach so I go with that, but good to know why you do yours, I’m fine with that.

    And if we’re discussing sources, and you ask for my Rebbe bases his, then you in turn bring your Gadols sources and we can understand eilu veilu are both correct ways, and its good to know.

    But if theres no opposition by your Rav but the Rebbe is not good enough as a hashkafic standard, but the Chofetz Chaim is, that’s what annoys me.

    In this case rso is not a litvak he is a chossid(by his own admission at least on another thread). So it really rankles when the Rebbe is a non source, but the Chofetz Chaim is kodesh kodoshim and would never dare speak that way about him (as it should be. I’m just saying the same standard should apply to the Rebbe too.)

    #1617040

    StuartW
    Participant

    CS, you know very well there has unfortunately been animus between various factions, Satmar vs Chabad, Satmar vs belz, to name the most well-known.

    It is therefore regrettable but not unexpected that some chasidim, particularly from the Romanian/Hungarian crowd, will disrespect the rebbe of lubavitch.

    #1617038

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @neville yes the Rebbe was a revolutionary Daas yichud in many ways. In many things, such as the tefillin campaign, many Rabbonim fought against it at first before they came around and their own representatives are doing the same. The Rebbe often draws the line very differently than others – such as not shutting out the world, but influencing it instead. And not being influenced. Or not condemning not yet frum Yidden but also not condoning their wrong hashkofos or actions. But it’s not revolutionary because it’s something new not in Torah cvs, which would make it just the Rebbe’s thing, there’s always the sources, its just a matter of how to apply them in which there can be differing opinions between gedolim and both can be correct for their community.

    Secondly you are ignoring the fact that I brought where in Torah the Rebbe bases himself above. But now that you mention it I’ll bring one more.

    As far as davening and not demanding etc.
    Chazal say: kol ma sheomer lach habaal habayis asei, chutz mitzei.

    The same applies to us. Everything our Master decrees for us we accept, EXCEPT for tzei, being kicked out of our rightful place by Hashem’s table

    #1617042

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    One more thing on davening: very different personal requests for personal needs, and davening on behalf of others and especially the whole klal Yisrael:

    For personal needs, the correct approach is to request, not demand, and accept and make peace with the result.

    For others, a demand or even challenge can be praiseworthy
    . For example- Moshe Rabbeinu was taught by Hashem to even daven for reshaim, and when he did, he “threatened” Hashem, “V’im ayin, micheini na misifricha.”

    Obviously such language would be inappropriate if asking for a higher paycheck or even refuah etc.

    Rochel Imeinu challenged Hashem as well, “Can Your mercy be less than Your creations??”

    Not exactly polite requests accepting whatever the outcome.

    And yet in their zechus, BY were saved from extermination, and Moshe is lauded as the first and prime leader of klal Yisrael, and Rochel was the only one who got the promise of vshavu bonim ligvulum from Hashem.

    They werent condemned for inappropriate demands or language, quite the opposite.

    #1617045

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Stuartw so those people should stay out of the discussion and don’t waste my time asking for sources when nothing will be good enough and they’re not going to respect lubavitch anyway. (But then I still feel I should respond because there ARE sources and what about the people reading it who think that there’s nothing to respond? That’s what’s annoying)

    #1617048

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    And besides, I enjoy learning and learning other hashkofos, so I like honest intellectual discussion and exchange of sources but wasting time on farces where instead of discussion its, prove this, prove that, and then just switching topics to another thing and another thing (as can be seen in rso latest post) and never accepting that the first thing has been properly addressed and settled. Now you understand. Thanks etc. In which case wouldn’t mind moving on to something else. Or you still don’t agree because of this source that addresses mine etc which is also fine. Then I’ll address that source and the discussion will continue.

    Btw rso I think you do seem to be a learned person and i think we could have a great intellectual exchange and mutual education, but your approach has been that of the above. Change it and we can both be happy 🙂

    #1617095

    I’m wondering, isn’t there a makor that eliyahu hanavi is supposed to announce who is moshiach (like Shmuel did with Dovid) and not that moshiach announces himself (whether outright or ברמיזה)

    #1617100

    Well if that’s not a case of the pot calling the kettle black! wow. So when posters don’t accept the Rebbe’s own words as sources for his words it’s about denial, closemindedness, and animus. But when someone CLARIFIES a chofetz chiam that S/HE HIMSELF/Herself brought in to the discussion, it’s all of the sudden a case of distortion and cover up. RSo has probably been the most objective and informed of posters on this thread. Asking him/her to change because you don’t like what he has to say is disengenous.

    #1617022

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “Another double standard here is that you state The Rebbe isn’t a good enough source for you/ you want to see where the Rebbe bases it… But the chofetz chaim is a great source…

    … And the same way its unthinkable to say the chofetz chaim isn’t good enough for me, it should be the same for the Rebbe.,…
    Its insulting to display biases so openly and try to guise it as intellectual discussion.

    …applying double standards doesn’t give me much hope for fair learned discussion.”

    After all these threads and all the debates you still don’t get it! MANY or us (certainly not all) do not accept that the Lubavicher rebbe is a valid leader of Klal Yisroel, and he is certainly not a leader of the caliber of the Chofetz Chaim.

    I understand that you don’t agree with that, but that, to your probable great dismay, is what many of us believe. Therefore, it is not a matter of bias. It’s a matter of whom we consider gedolim and whom not.

    Please answer the following truthfully: Do you believe that the opinions of Rav Shach, who was revered as the ultimate Gadol Hador by tens of thousands of bnei Torah, carry the same weight as the opinions of the Lubavicher rebbe? The truthful answer of any card-carrying lubavicher is a resounding “No!” Why not? Because you/they don’t consider him a real leader of Klal Yisroel despite what tens of thousands of others think.

    Well, it’s the same here. Many people in this forum, and in the frum world at large (including ALL of those tens of thousands of Rav Shach believers) don’t consider the Lubachiver rebbe a real leader of Klal Yisroel. They – and yes, I am one of them – consider that despite his great knowledge and charisma, he was wrong in many of his views, a number of which are messing up his followers and bringing some to views and actions that are close to apikorsus R”L.

    I have to say that I am absolutely astounded that a person of your intellectual caliber – you are clearly far from stupid – just doesn’t realize that we don’t believe what you do, and that therefore the “proofs”, sources and quotes that you keep supplying from your rebbe will not convince us.

    #1617158

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “rso is not a litvak he is a chossid(by his own admission at least on another thread)”

    Gee! You have a better memory than me! While it’s true, I don’t remember mentioning it. And I don’t consider it an admission; I consider it a matter of pride 🙂

    “So it really rankles when the Rebbe is a non source, but the Chofetz Chaim is kodesh kodoshim”

    Sorry, but that’s the way I see it. The Chofetz Chaim was seen as Kodesh Kodashim by virtually all layers of his generation including the greatest and most famous chassidishe rebbes of his time. (I write virtually because I have heard more than once lubavitcers denigrating him, calling him a snag and the like. And let me stress, I have heard it DIRECTLY from lubavichers who are mashpi’im and high-ups in chabad mosdos, not from someone who just heard it from a lubaicher.) Your rebbe, on the other hand, was a controversial figure and many in the chassidic and litvishe worlds don’t see him as Kodesh, let alone Kodesh Kodashim.

    One final point: I am not a Satmarer or Satmar inclined in any way. I find their kanno’us disturbing and often disgusting. My lack of awe for your rebbe does not stem from kanno’us.

    #1617363

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    For samthenylic I don’t know where you get your aversion to moshiach from. Actually I know a story that predicts it from over 100 years ago (can share of desired)… But don’t fool yourself thinking its from Torah. You are misquoting / applying the Rambam. Feel free to look it up and quote it here if you think I am wrong.

    By that logic, the anshei knesses hagedola were wrong for strongly requesting moshiach fast, several times per day instead of just leaving it for tisha bav.

    Also we specifically study hilchos beis habechira during the three weeks (this wouldn’t necessarily prove the point if thus is only a lubavitch minhag, you can let me know) as that is counted as a spiritual building of the Beis Hamikdash. Far from it being a good thing NOT to learn it, quite the opposite…

    #1617389

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    CS: I think the most offensive thing about your claim that the Rebbe is the only/first rabbi to ever care about non-frum yidden is the fact that you probably actually believe it to be true.

    You can claim over and over to respect our poskim, but when you say that someone should weigh the Rebbe’s opinion more than that of the Chofetz Chaim on account of the poster “not being a Litvak,” you aren’t doing yourself any favors. It’s like you’re saying “it’s sad when a fellow Chossid hates Chabad so much he looks for sources from the writings of ‘the enemy.'”

    Despite all of these threads, the self-awareness problem remains the same. Chassidim learn the Mishnah Berurah, Litvaks often learn some Chassidishe meforshim like the Sfas Emes. Chabad is the ONLY group that completely separates itself from the rest of the frum world. It’s a shame Icemelter went to far with his comments and got some blocked (I’m sure it was necessary; I have good faith in the mods). A lot of what he was saying about what Lubavitchers say about other groups was 100% accurate. The genius of Chabad is how well they behave on the internet vs. real life. It allows people who haven’t had the personal experiences with Chabad to assume all of these anecdotes are just made up.

    #1617441

    knaidlach
    Participant

    why is it that there are so many yidden from different circles becoming close to chabad or even joining chabad and learning chasidus chabad, but hardly if any chabad chasidim becoming satmar or belz etc. or joining the litvish circles?

    #1617444

    samthenylic
    Participant

    To CS;- I have no aversion to Moshiach, I, and the rest of Klal Yisroel hope and await his coming every day! All I don’t condone is this hang-up of being OBSESSED with studying and being busy with it at the EXPENSE of studying other parts of the Torah. We have to study ALL OF TORAH for the sake of limud haTorah, of course, we are praying and hoping for the Geulah, but that is NOT the ultimate goal. The goal is limud ha Torah and kiyum hamizvos because HASHEM commanded us to do it!

    #1617449

    StuartW
    Participant

    As an objective observer of this argument between CS and several others, I am glad to see that everyone expressed their underlying beefs and feeling, and all this without vitriol, and in fact with respect.

    This is a healthy thing, and I believe will lead to much healthier debate and discussion in all threads.

    Let’s all take the gloves off and congratulate yourselves on putting your gripes out there in a respectful and articulate way.

    And move on!

    This has turned out to be the first thread that has given me a good feeling.

    #1617463

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Glad to hear stuartw 🙂 will respond further soon

    #1617498

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Sam that’s fine we don’t disagree there. I have another post addressed to syag that for some reason (honestly don’t knit know) hasn’t come through yet, and will address your post further as well

    #1617464

    knaidlach
    Participant

    samthenelli
    sure we have to learn all parts of torah and keep mitsvos. and this is what lubavitchers do like all frum yidden. walk in to any lubavitcher yeshiva and you will see for yourself that most of the day they learn gemara and shulchan aruch. but with learning chasidus you come to the understanding that the purpose of the whole creation of the world is that yidden through learning torah and doing mitsvos will bring the world to the state how it will be when mashiach arrives, how can you not be obsessed with mashiach especially when believing/knowing/feeling that we are very close to the geula???

    #1617409

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Coffee addict: you are correct that there is a gemara that states that, but I have learned a thorough analysis of the topic which makes it clear that not necessarily.

    For example, if that were the case, then it would be impossible to apply the anticipating moshiach every day
    in practice, because if his coming is contingent on Eliyahu hanavi announcing it three days earlier, then he can’t come today as there was no announcement two days ago….

    There’s a whole analysis of the various sources but the conclusion is that that gemara and others, discuss the role of Eliyahu Hanavi. How the Geula and appearance of moshiach will actually unfold though, is not necessarily in that order.

    #1617525

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha, back to the beginning of this thread:

    I also believe that we are on the threshold of Geula – thats why we are back in Eretz Yisrael, and Baruch hashem, we are now zoche do be able to be mekayim a mitzvah that was long gone – techeiles.

    If Chabad believes were in ikvisa demeshicha, why don;t they wear techeiles and make aliya?

    (as an aside, Rabbi Yitzchok Ginsberg is the only Chabad rabbi that Im aware of who is consistent and does wear techeiles and insist on yishuv haaretz.)

    #1617537

    samthenylic
    Participant

    We (the Galus yidden) are not in E Y because without our support, you wouldn’t be in Eretz Yisroel.
    Why we don’t wear techeiles, not all halachic authorities agree on what is techeiles, and whether it is available today.

    #1617540

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “How the Geula and appearance of moshiach will actually unfold though, is not necessarily in that order.”

    By the way, on the topic of “don’t misunderstand us,” we all know that when you guys talk about “not necessarily in that order” you’re hinting that you believe tichiyas hameisim can happen before moshiach is revealed, therefore allowing the dead to be candidates for moshiach, therefore allowing Meshichism to survive. These Meshichist winks that you think are subtle are not going over our heads as you might hope.

    #1617544

    StuartW
    Participant

    I can corroborate knaidlach’s claim the chabad spends most of the time learning gemara and halocha.

    Though I am not chasidic or lubavitch, I went to a lubavich high school. We spent all morning learning the exact same stuff as the litvish school i had transfered from.

    About 1/2 my classmates didn’t take “English” aka secular studies, and I guess they had some tanya classes in the afternoon (I never asked what they learned in the afternoon).

    So if they did learn/obsess over geulah, it was at the time that the litvish boys were studying math and history.

    I think people think that chabad is overly preoccupied with moshiach because this is a main talking point. Remember that chabad is outward-facing and their chosen tafkid is to push an agenda, and they have been very successful in kiruv.

    Chabad is not interested in being mekarev the frum. In fact I believe CS is not here to push her agenda but she is here out if the love of sharing ideas about yiddishkeit, both chabad and others (not guessing, this she stated and i take it at face value).

    As for the talking point of moshiach on billboards etc, this is what they believe, and it makes a compelling story intended i think to attract the lost sheep. The consequence of these campaigns seems to rub the non-chabad frum crowd the wrong way. Get over it (please).

    #1617557

    StuartW
    Participant

    samthenylic,

    Are you saying that you are itching to make Aliyah but are holding yourself back in order to help the yidden in
    EY?
    Forgive me, but if you believe that, you are lying to yourself imho. Furthermore, you can help plenty in EY, and the rest of us can make the sacrifice and stay in chul.

    BTW, as an interesting aside, I heard with my own ears (on video) the lubavitcher Rebbe state that he stayed in chul for the benefit of those in chul, and that he would not even visit EY until he got a psuk that he would be permitted to return, which evidently he never got to his satisfaction.

    #1617562

    For example, if that were the case, then it would be impossible to apply the anticipating moshiach every day
    in practice, because if his coming is contingent on Eliyahu hanavi announcing it three days earlier, then he can’t come today as there was no announcement two days ago….

    Thanks for the reply I thought it was going to get lost.

    It can be understood that the announcement that moshiach is coming can be any day,

    And there are shittos that say eliyahu hanavi can announce moshiach on that day before he comes

    #1617578

    StuartW
    Participant

    We can be waiting for moshiach to come today or for the announcement to come today.

    Makes little difference. If the announcement comes today that it is now T minus 3 days I guarantee everyone will be thrilled and there will be dancing in the streets (even the litvish will dance, won’t that be a sight 😉).

    #1617393

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    “There still remains a big difference between demanding geula, and putting it as a tafkid or top priority over other things.”

    Certainly. I think this is due to a difference in education. Litvishe education / mussar, from what I’ve seen here and elsewhere, feel free to correct me, focuses on schar vonesh as a motivating factor. Lubavitch (and maybe the frum zionists in their own way) focuses on the end goal abs purpose of creation being moshiach and Geula, as their motivating factor.

    Both are equally foundations of Yiddishkeit, which explains why they are both part of the ani maamin, whereas
    shabbos, for example, isn’t.

    They also don’t have to conflict. Both are Torah. Moshiach being the purpose and end point is Creation is emphasised more in kabbola and Chassidus which deals with these topics, and maybe less outright discussed in nigle, although certainly referenced. No matter, they are both Torah. And I can live on a personal level knowing I will be accountable to Hashem for my every action – schar vonesh, while putting moshiach as a priority as what I’m working towards on a global scale.

    Of course there is much more to be said on this topic but I think this is a good starter/ summary.

    #1617599

    StuartW
    Participant

    “and maybe the frum zionists in their own way”.

    Why “in their own way”? You might not admit it to yourself, but that is condescending.

    You can defend it all you want, but “in your their own way” , uttered by anyone in any circumstance, is always condescending.

    I don’t take offense, but there is some gaavah in there. Think about it.

    #1617592

    It’s up to us to set the stage and bring him

    ‏ A great non Chabad even anti Chabad rabbi once put it
    [ having bit of trouble with my typesetting]:

    Areinbrengen משיח קומט נישט מיר דארף

    #1617577

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: “For example, if that were the case, then it would be impossible to apply the anticipating moshiach every day
    in practice, because if his coming is contingent on Eliyahu hanavi announcing it three days earlier, then he can’t come today as there was no announcement two days ago….”

    This is another assumption based on (wilful?) mistranslations.

    אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא does NOT mean that I expect him every day. It means I will wait for him every day. Imagine a 12 year-old boy waiting for his bar mitzvah. Every day he looks at the calendar and sees how long there still is to go, so every day he is eagerly waiting for his bar mitzvah, but he does NOT anticipate his bar mitzvah happening before he turns 13. So too with Mashiach. We (are expected to) wait eagerly for his coming every day, but we know that he may not come today.

    I believe (I have searched and haven’t been able to find it, but I clearly remember seeing it somewhere) that the Lubavicher rebbe referred to as marah shchorah – morose and depressed – anyone who explained it the way I have explained it above. But I fully believe (אני מאמין באמונה שלימה 🙂 ) that my translation/explanation is the correct one notwithstanding the Lubavicher rebbe’s objections.

    Similarly, לישעותך קוינו כל היום does not mean that we expect the yeshuah today. It means we hope for it. And by the way, that may not even be directly referring to the revelation of Mashiach, rather than to the beginning of the establishment of Malchus Beis David – את צמח דוד עבדך מהרה תצמיח.

    There is thus no reason at all to suggest that when Chazal tell us that Eliyahu Hanavi will come three days before Mashiach that they did not mean and believe it fully.

    #1617582

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @rso the Rav shach excuse to hate on lubavitch/ disrespect the Rebbe doesn’t wash water with me (is that the correct phrase? Lol I always mix up these axioms) for several reasons. I can definitely expound. But I’m wondering if you are sincere about it, and it will give you what to think about? Or you’ll just find the next thing to bash because if your mind is made up, it isn’t worth writing out. Especially on such a sensitive topic.

    #1617586

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Additionally rso besides my objection to you not respecting the Rebbe as a source, you keep ignoring, and not addressing, the many (I think 4 separate) sources in Torah I have brought. You definitely haven’t brought any of your own to support your side. All you have said is the
    Rebbe saying it isn’t good enough. So I suppose, even if you sincerely want to me to address the Rav shach excuse etc. I would request you first address the sources brought. Because otherwise, what are you proving? Nothing other than you don’t accept the Rebbe. You don’t show any alternate reason why those sources may not be valid in your Chassidus (Rav shach was a litvak just to remind you.)

    #1617629

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @neville in your second to most recent post, you are putting words in my mouth that I never said or meant. So no need to defend myself.

    As far as Lubavitch isolating themselves, well it’s half and half. We are more isolated as our shittos tend to take the middle path (see my earlier post for some examples) and thus manage to differ both from much of the chareidi world but equally differ from MO etc..while also maintaining common ground/,hashkofos with both.

    When your motivating factors for instance, centre around different things, like schar vs. Moshiach for a starting point, it is easy to farbreng more with fellow lubavitchers.

    But we are also isolated by others. Vhameivin yavin no need to reference machlokes needlessly.

    That’s why I love this forum, it enables me to relate and exchange Hashkofos and common ground with other yidden. Yet people like you, (or should I say your second to most recent post, as you’ve actually been much more respectful generally as of late,) are anti semetic against lubavitchers. It’s like we’re the Jews of the Jews, and there are many double standards. For example, you complain we isolate ourselves. Yet when I join this forum, how many times have I heard the sentiment, Stop pushing your Chabad agenda. You’re only talking to us to mekarev us etc.. Think about it.

    Or lubavitchers are shluchim so we expect more of them than anyone else. Hey there’s lubavitchers who are jerks, that means you’re all phony two faced jerks. Etc. Just look at your own post and you’ll see. Aside from making up what I said and meant.

    With regards to your post that we are meshichist winking and your not oblivious etc. do you want to state straight out – the answer to your question also answers how techias hameisim could also happen first? I don’t find it relevant so I don’t mention. There’s no wink wink. You know what we believe and what we don’t, we’ve had several threads over it. If you’re curious you can ask. Like what do you want me to do? Clap for you every time a lubavitcher references a source that can also somehow apply to the Rebbe being moshiach?

    #1617631

    StuartW
    Participant

    RSo I like your take on waiting for moshiach every day.

    Assuming that anyone actually “expects” moshiach to come “today” , and he does this every day, this would lead one to abandon his expectation because he has been proven wrong every day (though today is not over). Its like the kid who gets disappointed by his absentee dad that keeps breaking promises to spend time with him. Eventually he grows to distrust, resent, and RL even hate the dad.

    Are you sure the take on this that you disagree with isn’t that every day is a candidate day, i.e. there is no reason to believe that today is not the day?

    #1617633

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @stuartw
    “In fact I believe CS is not here to push her agenda but she is here out if the love of sharing ideas about yiddishkeit, both chabad and others (not guessing, this she stated and i take it at face value).”

    Thanks its nice to see decent people who don’t attack you for only talking to lubavitchers but also attack you for talking to other yidden.

    By “in their own way” I mean in their own way. Ie their own unique path in Avodas Hashem where they focus on yishuv haaretz, often living smack in the middle of hostile Arabs. I really admire the. It’s not my way, we differ hashkafa wise, but I respect their mehalech as being legitimate for them so I say in their own way (ie as differs from mine.) Don’t see why you find that unquestionably offensive when I didn’t mean or feel any offense

    #1617643

    RSo
    Participant

    CS: I honestly don’t understand what you mean by “the Rav Shach excuse to hate”. The only reason I mentioned Rav Shach was to show how there can be someone many people – in this case tens of thousands of people – believe was a world leader yet you and your compatriots won’t accept him and you totally disparage him and his opinions. And my point was that in the same way you can’t expect others – and those tens of thousands of people – to accept what your rebbe says simply because you consider him a world leader.

    I just reread everything that was written above about Rav Shach and I fail to see where I gave any excuse to hate. Just the right – not an excuse – not to believe someone is a gadol hador.

    And I find your closing line of “Rav Shach was a Litvak just to remind you” irrelevant and very revealing.

    Irrelevant because, as I wrote above, I was merely using Rav Shach and his followers (no, I am not one of them) as an example of how Reuven does not have to agree that Rav Ploni is a gadol/tzadik/etc just because Shimon says so. And the fact that Rav Shach was a Litvak therefore has nothing to do with it. I could have used Rav Kook as an example, or Rav Y D Soloveitchik, or the Satmarer Rov, but I used Rav Shach because I knew that, as a lubavicher, you definitely do not hold of him.

    And VERY revealing because you always give the impression that you value all segments of Orthodox/Chareidi Jewry, yet here you basically told us all that Litvaks are not counted!

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