March 23, 2015 4:50 am at 4:50 am #615244Sam2Participant
Some people were offended by jokes about things that cause autism. Autism is no joking matter. There are very difficult things that people with autism and their friends and family must go through.
However, when people make jokes like in the other thread, they are not making fun of autism in the slightest. They are making fun of anti-vaccine people, who should be made fun of for obvious reasons.
There, now there can be no misunderstandingMarch 23, 2015 5:23 am at 5:23 am #1082525
not to rain on your parade but I don’t feel there are ‘obvious’ reasons that people “should be made fun of”. Feel free to joke about the theory or mehalach if you need, but please don’t say it about the people.March 23, 2015 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1082526akupermaParticipant
That “correlation” is not “causation” is an important principle in looking at anything statistical, and is often abused by people trying to make a point For example, there is a correlation between sales of matza and wine, and the weather getting warmer – that doesn’t mean that the rising temperatures causes Jews to go out and buy large amounts of matza and wine (in this case, an independent factor, that Pesach is in the spring, explains the correlation).March 23, 2015 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1082527
—They are making fun of anti-vaccine people, who should be made fun of for obvious reasons.—
Why because they don’t agree with you, the worldwide owner of logic and sound thinking?
If you think that the topic is so simple as ‘vaccines are safe’ then you are not thinking.
In 2011, the National Institute of Medicine did a major analysis of vaccine risks and concluded the following:
They also concluded that autism was not associated with vaccines but that in most cases the casual relationships was difficult to tell.
Thus, it’s not a simple subject, except perhaps to simple minds.
And in case you are not familiar with the National Institute of Medicine (and there’s a good chance that you are not) here’s some info on them:
The Institute of Medicine (IOM) is an American non-profit, non-governmental organization founded in 1970, under the congressional charter of the National Academy of Sciences. The IOM is part of the United States National Academies, which also includes:
National Academy of Sciences (NAS)
National Academy of Engineering (NAE)
National Research Council (NRC)
In other words, it is as prestigious an organization as you can get.March 23, 2015 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #1082528writersoulParticipant
I basically agree with Sam2’s Law but with Syag’s Corollary:
Making fun of people who correlate random things with autism is NOT making fun of or joking about autism.
Making fun of people in general is not “obvious.”
(Having worked in many special needs settings, I not only find autism very un-funny but also find these “correlations” even more darkly humorous and ridiculous…)March 23, 2015 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1082529
The causality they found is with ANAPHALAXIS ie allergic reaction.
They went on to say:
“Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes. However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.”
I’d like to highlight that entire paragraph, in particular the last line:
“Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”
From the VERY source you quoted!
Of course you left this out of your post.
Now the question becomes if you DELIBERTLY left off that last line. OR if it was an honest mistake. For an honest mistake, I wouldnt make fun. Now that mistake has been corrected and you know that “Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”
IF however this was an intentional misleading of the public, given the dire effects that can and have resulted from such dishonest manipulation it is VITAL that you and those like you are made fun ofMarch 23, 2015 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1082530
Yeah….Go make fun of the anti-vaccine people like my neighbor whose son died on the way back from the doctor in his car seat. Just a coincidence, right? How foolish of them…..March 23, 2015 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1082531
For an honest mistake, I wouldnt make fun.
What about a case where someone’s judgement is clouded by personal experience? Would you make fun of of someone who has an autistic child who claims, even through selective sourcing, that it’s caused by vaccines? Or, in that case, would you simply address the actual argument?March 23, 2015 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #1082532
Just a coincidence, right? How foolish of them…..
It might or might not be a coincidence. That can’t be determined by one or two cases. You’d need a study comparing an unvaccinated group to a vaccinated group.
You would also have to control for other factors.March 23, 2015 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1082533
Honestly I am not sure. If it was deliberate misleading, given the consequences that can and have resulted, I think I would make fun of the misleading and dishonesty, obviously never of the terrible situation that person is in. I dont think having judgement clouded is an excuse to threaten other lives, though again I am torn.
For some reason this is a charged topic. So lets use another (hopefully non-controversial) example. A person’s son got hit by a car shortly after davening in shul R”chl. The person is now petitioning the government to ban shuls posting on forum about all the studies proving shuls cause Car accidents etc etc needless to say this person has gone through a terrible tzar that nobody should ever go through. (note avoiding shul isnt as dangerous as avoiding vaccines) I think I would mock the Anti-shul movement, if they refused to listen to evidence and reason. Though I probably would not make fun of the specific person unless he himself was a threat to People going to shul.
Though please note I always address the actual argument.
where I asked Owl for evidence of his assertions, of course he never replied.March 23, 2015 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #1082534
Daas Yochid – Excellent point. I challenge you to find one study comparing 1,000 vaccinated children to 1,000 non-vaccinated children so we can compare how many get damaged from vaccines. Surely if vaccines are as safe as you say, let the company spend a few million dollars (what they make from one vaccine in one year!) and settle the case once and for all ! I will let you decide why they don’t…Spend a few hours researching on line – in an honest way with an open mind. You might very well surprise yourself….March 23, 2015 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1082535
….and obviously they should be followed from birth to age 20 to get an accurate picture and not like the doctors do to check for a few days.March 23, 2015 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1082536
DY my last reply was to vague for my liking here is a direct (tentative response):
Making fun of the anti-vaccine movement – should be done becasue it is not based on hosent mistake and causes harm (Although the movement includes those with tragic circumstances)
making fun of anti-vaccine individuals: if honest mistake- I think making fun is wrong
if its deliberate misleading: If harm can result absolutly make fun
If harmless, I wouldnt in tragic circumstances
Hope that helps. I am not writing this in stone thoughMarch 23, 2015 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1082537
stam a deya
MAybe it was the carseat? Could it just be a coincidence that he was in a car seat?
What would you say if a result your neighbor didnt place his other kids in car seats? What if he convinced others not to put their sons in car seats?March 23, 2015 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1082538
Stam a deya, there’s a lot of misinformation online. I’ll leave it to professionals whose business it is to research the studies to determine the proper course of action. All of the ones I’ve spoken to, with whom I have a personal relationship and I trust, are in favor of vaccination.
My point wasn’t that I have personal knowledge of studies; my point was to discount your anecdote.March 23, 2015 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1082539
Ubiquitin, I wasn’t trying to imply that you have actually mocked anyone.
I think it’s reasonable to assume that someone on an anti-shul campaign has a malicious agenda. I don’t think that about all/most anti-vaxxers, I think they’re being swayed by anecdotal evidence and emotion.
It is a mitzvah to mock people whose agenda is anti-Torah. I don’t think it’s a mitzvah to mock anti-vaxxers.March 23, 2015 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1082540
I work with a child who went into cardiac arrest the day/week (don’t remember which)of his vaccine. He was brought back thru CPR and is living his life in a wheelchair unable to move any muscles other than his eyes. His family believes this was a result of the vaccines. I know another child who died from pertussis. Her friends believe this was a result of not having had vaccines.
We cannot use isolated situations, even hundreds of isolated situations, to speak for thousands or millions. Sometimes the answer is that we just don’t know.March 23, 2015 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1082541
Stam I’ll take that challenge! though forgive me if instead of one study I’ll provide several:
Increasing exposure to antibodystimulating
proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not
associated with risk of autism
DeStefano F, Price CS, Weintraub ES.
Journal of Pediatrics. 2013;
On-time Vaccine Receipt in the First Year Does Not Adversely Affect Neuropsychological Outcomes
Smith M and Woods C, Pediatrics. 2010;
Measles-Containing Vaccines and Febrile Seizures in Children Age 4 to 6 Years
Klein N, et al., Pediatrics. 2011; 129(5): 809-14
No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study
Peltola H, et al., Lancet. 1998; 351:1327-8
Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis
Kaye JA, et al., British Medical Journal. 2001; 322:460-63
MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association
Farrington CP, et al., Vaccine. 2001; Jun 14; 19(27): 3632-5
There are more, but I do not want to overwhelm you. I’d be more than happy to discuss further any questions you may have on any of these (or other) studies you come across.
Please let me know if you would like some moreMarch 23, 2015 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1082542
ubiquitin – I remember learning in psychology class that circumcision is so traumatic for babies that that is why they have such strong aversions to going to doctors in their childhood.
I would have to assume someone rebutted it later with blaming it on vaccines.March 23, 2015 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1082543
Ubiquiten – 20 YEARS study please taking into account EVERYTHING from autism to cancer to leukemia to learning disabilities to ear infections to sids etc. etc.. etc……1000 or more people involved on each side. Will look out for your reply.March 23, 2015 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1082544
Syag – I am not saying NOT to vaccinated. I am saying that anyone who thinks it’s 100 percent safe is a fool. Billions of dollars has already been paid for vaccine injuries. My children are all past the age of vaccinations and we did vaccinated. I am thankful i don’t have to make these decisions today based on what i do know now. Now i have to contend with my grandchildren…..March 23, 2015 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1082545akupermaParticipant
Assuming Autism has increased recently (and the term is 20th century, and was not considered a problem until the late 20th century), many things correlate with the rise of autism:
Lower infant and maternal mortality
Increased age of parents
Electrical appliances in the home
Radio, television and the internet
A diet high in calories (previously calorie deprivation was crisis – people used to be starving much of the time
People often grasp at something seeking an answer. You see it in those trying to relate climate change to policies they disapprove of. Sometimes this gets controversial (as in the correlation between rising abortion rates and falling crime rates). Often it gets ridiculous (the anti-vaccine people verge on this).March 23, 2015 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1082546
stam – i don’t think anyone is claiming it is 100% safe (nor is anything 100% safe). the comments here have been specifically about whether or not it causes autism, and if you really think being unvaccinated is less dangerous.March 23, 2015 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1082547
akuperma – two others I have read about are ultrasounds and genetic modifications of foods.
I must throw in as my own two cents, however, that with all I have learned, seen and experienced of autism, if I had to pick something as a cause (which i don’t)I personally would put my money on something food-based. Seeing the types of problems they suffer from (gastrointestinally) and the behaviors they display, and seeing what food sensitivities have sparked in many people, it is probably the closest relationship of all the correlated things i have seen.March 23, 2015 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1082548
The study you describe is impossible “taking into account EVERYTHING” That is a lot of stuff. firstly 1000 people wouldnt have enough power to detemine if there is ANY difference between the two groups so your demand doesnt really make sense. (keep in mind, we aren’t even discussing cause, this is merely looking for a corelation. )
Furthermore, a prospective Randomized controlled study would not be ethical, as it would endanger children by denying them, what ALL evidence we have indicates is life saving therapy. So the best we can do is a retrospective case control study to or a cross sectional survey. Both of these HAVE been done (some with over a million!!! people). However, again with a case control you have to know what you are looking for, you cant just look at “anything” otherwise you cant find controls for each of your cases.
From the diseases you mention, Autism, learning disabilities and leukemia have all been looked at.
Secondly, this thread is about Autism which HAS been looked at. in a study with “1000 or more people involved on each side” Can you agree to put that hoax aside? Now that several studies has been provided to you?
As an aisde maybe it is the prevelance of Personal PC’s why dont you provide a study with “20 YEARS study please taking into account EVERYTHING from autism to cancer to leukemia to learning disabilities to ear infections to sids etc. etc.. etc……1000 or more people involved on each side.”
Two more points:
“I am saying that anyone who thinks it’s 100 percent safe is a fool.” Agreed! Nothing in life is 100% safe (nor is life itself) sorry if I misled you.
“billions of dollars has already been paid for vaccine injuries. “
source pleaseMarch 23, 2015 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #1082549
1. “1000 people wouldnt have enough power to detemine if there is ANY difference” – don’t understand. please elaborate.
2. “Randomized controlled study would not be ethical”. heard this before (when a friend wanted to debate me and he Googled this question). There are literally thousands upon thousands of families that don’t vaccinate anyways and i’m sure for a few bucks they would participate so this does not make sense.
3. Case studies have to be looked at over many many years taking into account other social factors (for ex. they should be from same class of people.
4. You ask about autism. Just because he was supposedly discredited does not discredit the theory until the above study is conducted.
5. Your aside is not understood. sorry.
6. Google vaccine courts and you will understand that vaccine companies at one point stopped producing vaccines due to lawsuits. The govt. stepped in and made special vaccine courts that have paid out billions for injuries thereby absolving the companies of any liability. There is a surcharge on all vaccines to pay for these injuries.
I want to end by saying that i am by no means an expert on the subject and am searching the truth like everyone else. But, when i see the billions and trillions of dollars that drug companies make every year, i think to myself who am i trusting with my health? There is simply too much money involved to trust the govt. on this. They have to prove to me that is safe, i don’t have to prove that it is unsafe. Until above test is done, i lean more on side of caution.March 23, 2015 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #1082550👑RebYidd23Participant
Or maybe I was serious. Shoes certainly cause a lot of foot fungus and shrink muscle.March 23, 2015 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1082551
Or maybe you weren’t making a point about autism, rather about vaccines and correlation/causation.March 23, 2015 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1082552
1. Look up statistical power. Briefly say Leukemia has a prevelance of 1/2,000 comparing a group of 1,000 with vaccine vs. 1,000 without would not be expected to show a difference. If you want to include “Anything” in your study it would need to be powered to find a difference of prevelance in diseases much less prevelant than 1,000.
2. That wouldnt be randomised, a study like that would “prove” that suspicous people are less likely to develop diseases as much as it would prove unvaccinated are less likely.
3. I am not sure what you mean. Case studies wouldnt help in this case. If you mean Case controls they are looked at over years, but retroactivly. For example you take 1,000 people with Autism (cases) and “match” them to 1,000 without (controls) and you see if there is a difference in vaccination rates between the two. Which brings us to…
4. Forget the fact that he has been discredited. The very study you demand has been done. Pleas see sources above!
Can you agree to put that hoax aside? Now that several studies has been provided to you?
5. I’ll phrase my aside in the form of a direct question: Why do you think Vaccines casue problems? If it is just base don increase incidence of Autism this occured along with an increase in computer ownership, how do you know computers dont casue Autism? why vaccines?
6. “There is simply too much money involved to trust the govt. ” the government pays for vaccines they dont make money of themMarch 23, 2015 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1082553catch yourselfParticipant
Of course, it never occurred to the anti-vaccine crowd that any doctors (if there are any left) who discourage their patients from vaccinating might be motivated by the prospect of increased need for medical treatment.
They would be horrified and scandalized to hear the integrity of their physician impugned in so brazen a manner. Yet they have no problem painting the entire medical establishment of the developed world in as ugly a hue.March 23, 2015 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1082554
Hey Catch Yourself – Just for the record, my father is a doctor and my wife a nurse ! Just like neither has a clue about nutrition on health except for the “couple of hours” they learned in Med. and Nursing school, they know nothing about the dangers of the vaccines. My own doctor tells me “I know nothing about health – i only know how to prescribe drugs!!” It is the allopathic method of practicing medicine compared to naturopathic. The anti-vaccine crowd belong to the latter. One thing i have learnt in my pursuit of health and that is you cannot separate the money and politics away from the health advice and medicine AND MY FATHER WILL BE THE FIRST TO AGREE !!!!March 23, 2015 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1082555
stam – I don’t know you so i dont know if your last post is true or not but i have a very hard time believing any doctor or nurse would say such a thing and i surely would not feel comfortable choosing a doctor who believes that way.March 23, 2015 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1082556catch yourselfParticipant
I think you need a new doctor.
In all seriousness, of course it is true that nutritionists know more about nutrition than do doctors. Perhaps there is some set of foods that could prevent MMR (if there is, please let me know) about which doctors are ignorant. What does this have to do with the contention that vaccines cause autism?
I think it is reprehensible and slanderous to assert that the many thousands of doctors who strongly encourage their patients to get vaccinated (including, by the way, ???? ?????? ???? ????, as you know better than I do) are all willing to toss their own souls, along with the lives of their patients, to burn on the altar of the dollar god. This is not like recommending brand name Advil over store brand ibuprofen!
My pediatrician as a child, and nearly all of the many pediatricians I have used for my own children, are frum Yidden whose value for human life renders any dollar amount inconsequential. Are they, too, motivated by money or politics? Or perhaps they are too stupid to figure this all out? Many of them have the highest pedigree you could want a physician to have; do they not understand the issues?March 23, 2015 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1082557🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
stam a deya- Do you know what qualifies as a vaccine injury? If my parents would be the litigating type they could have sued for my “vaccine injury” as a child. While the doctor was giving me an injection, I strongly pulled my arm away. The needle ended up cutting my arm a bit and it was bleeding. There you go- vaccine injury.March 23, 2015 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1082558
stam: 2 more points
“”I know nothing about health – i only know how to prescribe drugs!!” ” Please get a new doctor! There are plenty who do know about health.
“One thing i have learnt in my pursuit of health and that is you cannot separate the money and politics away from the health advice and medicine “
Yet you do trust wakefield? Earlier you said : “Just because he was supposedly discredited ” I assumed the “he” was wakefield. You do know his “study” was funded by lawyers looking to sue vaccine companies right? And furthermore he wasnt even opposed to vaccines. quite the opposite he was opposed to the MMR and favored a single vaccine that he secretly held the patent for!
This is the guy you trust, why the double standard?March 23, 2015 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #1082559
Syag – Try it for yourself. Ask your doctor how many hours did you learn about nutrition in school. I’m not attacking doctors of bad faith – just poor education as far as nutrition etc goes.
Catch Yourself – Again, my ???? on both sides is that they only tell you half the story. There are definite serious risks and vaccines do save lives. The question is it worth it. The doctors minimize the risks. For the better part of my life, doctors have been almost Godly to me where i never questioned anything they say. The more I educated myself, the less respect i developed for them. Not personally ofcourse, but rather their brand of medicine….Read up a little on naturapathic medicine. It is simply a fascinating education.
Ubiquitin – This doctor is a big name doctor here in town.
you missed my point twice ! I said eventhough Wakefield is discredited, the theory stands. There are way too many unexplained diseases that vaccines can be the culprit. Use common sense, my daughter took her one month old baby and vaccinated for hepatitis which is transmitted through bodily fluid ! Does that make sense. As a child I have a few vaccines and now my grandchildren are looking at receiving over 100 doses! what does that do to their immunity ??? does anyone know? the burden of proof is on them to prove the safety and i am not convinced.March 23, 2015 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1082560Sam2Participant
stam a deya: If you have grandkids that means that there were tens millions of people dying worldwide each year due to smallpox. Can you even comprehend such a number? That’s about the same as the Holocaust every single year. Every year. There are an estimated nearly half-a-billion deaths from the 20th century. And that’s just smallpox. Sure, some diseases are less lethal. The fact remains that vaccines save an astounding number of people. The risks of slight comprehension are far outweighed by that.March 23, 2015 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1082561
Stam Big name or small name if your doctor tells you “I know nothig about health” Its time for a new doctor
“I said even though Wakefield is discredited,”
Um no! you said quote “”Just because he was SUPPOSEDLY discredited ” (emphasis added)
“the theory stands”
why? and on what?
“There are way too many unexplained diseases that vaccines can be the culprit”
I’ve asked before and i’ll ask again. Why vaccines? Why not computer usage?March 23, 2015 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1082562
Sam 2 – I respectfully ask you do some research and you will come accross graphs and statistics. They pro-vaccine will show you how in the 1930 or 40s when vaccines were introduced until now the line graph goes way way down. What they don’t show you that already in the year 1900 BEFORE the vaccines were introduced, the line graph goes way way down. I have not seen any rebuttals on this. (As an aside, scarlet fever and typhoid is also (I believe) non-existent but there are no vaccines for them…)
Ubiquitin – I write supposedly because there are many that still hold that his studies stand! But, i am not asking you to believe them. What can i tell you my friend? I just don’t trust the govt. and medical establishment since there is so much money involved. Vaccines are more of a culprit than computer use, becuase with computer use, we are not injecting dozens of foreign substances in a one month old baby. I think you can understand the difference. Besides, way too many instances where the parents say their children were fine until the vaccines started.
I say to both of you, spend ten hours online reading the other side with an open mind. you might start to see things differently. there was no bigger skeptic than myself to natural health etc…but b”h i was honest enough to entertain the other side and that’s why i think the way i think now. The chovos halevos says: one should daven for health since we do not know the decisions we make regarding health are the right ones. Hashem obviously will not punish someone for making a wrong decision – but i wonder if he will punish someone who makes an uninformed one!March 23, 2015 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1082563SAEMember
There is significant emerging evidence of two related correlations regarding Autism:
a) there appears to be a positive correlation between maternal prenatal exposure to pesticides and autism in the child when there is reason to believe that a genetic predisposition exists (1 or more relative who is either autistic or falls within the broad autistic phenotype), which is higher than that of children with the genetic predisposition alone.
b) there is an almost perfect correlation between autism and a surplus of neuronal synapse pathways in individuals who had autism, died and were studied under autopsy conditions.
Obviously, more research is needed in both of these areas in order to determine what, if any, effect they have on a child developing autism and what, if anything, can be done about it.
connection: most pesticides are acetylcholine esterase inhibitors. acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter that prevents apoptosis (spontaneous death) of a cell. apoptosis is an important element of proper brain development and weeding out unneccesary or ineficient neural pathways.
it would make sense to think that these two correlations may in some way be related therefore. But, as has been clearly pointed out, there is insufficient research to state causation and more research is needed to figure out what is going on here. This is among the latest research that has been published on the topic and, as such, is still in it’s early stages of investigation and development.March 23, 2015 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1082564but…Participant
stam a deya –
People like you are scaring people like my father-in-law to drive me and my brother-in-law crazy about vaccines without really having the faintest clue what Is right and what is wrong. I’ve heard from more than one very informed doctor how neccesarry vaccines are including the doctor who I visited with my baby today who is frum, a real, caring tzaddik of a person who knows his stuff. My doctor, also a frum tzaddik of a person and well informed, actually went through the effort of driving a book over to my house which he said he bought a bunch of copies of for the exact purpose of giving to people with “shvere shveres” like mine by paul offvit clearly and convincingly anti anti-vacine. If all you can conjure in your responses is “what if what if what if” than you are better off not posting at all than posting ignorant scare messages. Just read the book by paul offvit against the anti-vaccine movement and you will clearly see at the very least how there is little you can really claim without a tremendous amount of insider research, (besides the fact that he has me convinced the exact opposite of your opinion). [sorry got to run to second seder!March 23, 2015 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1082565
I would like to point out some dishonesty in your post, in attempt to show you how youve been blinded:
you say : “What can i tell you my friend? I just don’t trust the govt. and medical establishment since there is so much money involved. “
(as an aside don’t trust them blindly nowhere did I say vaccinate because the governent says so or the medical establsihement says so,)
You say you suspect them becasue of finacial biases. Fair enough. Yet you also accept Wakefield, although he had finacial biases too! (keep in mind the government doesnt make money on vaccines. They SPEND both on development and administration (medicare/medicaid)) This is not being “honest enough to entertain the other side”
you raised a series of points above. I responded to each and every one.
Here is another example. Earlier you said you would agree if a study involving “1000 people” could be done. Granted I could not provide any showing that there were NO risks associated with vaccines (nor did I claim that to be the case). Yet I did provide SEVERAL studies showing just that, with regard to Autism. You chose to ignore them. this is not being ” honest enough to entertain the other side”
“I say to both of you, spend ten hours online reading the other side with an open mind.” I have (sadly)
“but i wonder if He will punish someone who makes an uninformed one!”
He has already! and whats (arguably) worse He punished the informed as well as a direct result of the uninformed’s actions.March 24, 2015 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1082566
but….in “our circles” your Dr. Offit is known as Dr. Profit. Google his name and CBSnews….He is profited millions in developing vaccines. Therefore, i can’t respect him. Maybe I’m wrong but those are my feelings. Research him a little and i am interested to know if you come to same conclusion. I happen to have his book as well but did not finish yet. Again, i am sharing a little of my research with you from the little I know. If I am scaring you or people like your shver, than that’s great!! Vaccines are a very serious matter and you should only proceed with them with great trepidation and alot of tehillim and tzdaka beseeching Hashem that you are doing what you believe is for the good of your child and the rest is in his hands. In short, make an informed decision and proceed with great caution.March 24, 2015 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1082567
1.March 24, 2015 3:45 am at 3:45 am #1082568
1. I don’t “accept Wakefield” and I don’t disqualify him since i do not know enough to judge his studies. But I certainly do not accept the govt. and media assassination of him.
2. Autism is only one piece of pie. Again, i do not know enough to comment on any one study. I want to know the whole picture and that can only be done with the large scale study with all sides involved as i and others have suggested.
3. It is inconceivable to me that Hashem would punish someone for vaccinating or not vaccinating. If the parent is sincerely making his informed choice than he will not punish for erring. That’s simply impossible in hashkafa. On the other hand, if someone understands the dangers involved and makes a choice out of laziness etc….
4. I sense a little irritation on your part in responding to my posts. We are having a friendly chat and I mean no nastiness in my remarks. I apologize if you took it that way. It’s funny how sometimes this topic makes others (not you ofcourse) violent on both sides…..March 24, 2015 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1082569SAEMember
keep the following in mind – the field of medicine works on the basis of cost-benefit analysis. There is no such thing as a medical treatment without any risks, any more than there is any such thing as walking across the street without a risk. I will grant you as well, that most medical procedures carry more risk than walking across most streets. When assessing whether a given treatment is advisable, you cannot look at the risks in isolation, because you will never find a treatment without any. You give a treatment when the potential for benefit is greater than the risk involved.
Vaccines, incidentally, have been heavily researched for many different risks. Each vaccine carries it’s own individual risks together with those that are inherint in all vaccines. Those vaccines that carry the highest risk and the least benefit are not routinely given (think – smallpox and live polio, both of which have the risk of causing the actual illness they are trying to prevent), however a situation could arise where the benefit outweighs the risk. There are actually people who are paid to monitor these situations, screening water samples for live polio and staying on alert for bioterrorism, etc…
There may be individuals who carry a higher risk than the general population for a certian (or even all) vaccines, such as people who are allergic to eggs, have a family history of certain severe reactions, are pregnant among others. Unless there is an extenuating circumstance that significantly raises their risk of becoming ill with the disease the vaccine is trying to prevent, they will not be given the vaccine (or, in some cases, only under careful and strict medical observation).
Your simplistic approach that any risk at all means that doctors, researchers and government are being reckless or even purposely attempting to harm others is not only wrong, it is unfair to the millions of people you are insulting. Granted, there are, on occasion, people who will become reckless and endanger people with their faulty research or promotion of bad ideas, but, overall, the competition within the research world routinely picks up on these people and disproves their tenants.
Unfortunately, some of them are quite stubborn in continuing to prey on those without the background in science, statistics and medicine to understand the feeble nature of their arguments. Your anti-vaccine rant is one of the most disproven and rampant of these, and, in fact, has endangered millions of people.March 24, 2015 6:49 am at 6:49 am #1082570
ubuqitin, you’ll notice that i posted that “They also concluded that autism was not associated with vaccines but that in most cases the casual relationships was difficult to tell.”
So don’t go that route. The point is that if the study showed some vaccines cause some significant problems that the issue isn’t simple. And if it’s not simple then you shouldn’t talk about it simplistically and view suspicion of vaccines as an act of fools. I wasn’t going to post paragraphs worth of material on our little discussion board here.March 24, 2015 6:52 am at 6:52 am #1082571
–My pediatrician as a child, and nearly all of the many pediatricians I have used for my own children, are frum Yidden whose value for human life renders any dollar amount inconsequential. Are they, too, motivated by money or politics? —
Frum yidden are a tiny fraction of physicians. I know scores of physicians who care mostly about money. But the pharma cos for sure care entirely about money and they push everyone else around.March 24, 2015 6:54 am at 6:54 am #1082572
ubiquitin, if could kindly put aside your chest thumping for a minute, can you help us to understand why autism has gone from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 100 during the vaccination era? I’m assuming you care about children and not just about showing everyone how smart you are.March 24, 2015 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1082573
–Of course, it never occurred to the anti-vaccine crowd that any doctors (if there are any left) who discourage their patients from vaccinating might be motivated by the prospect of increased need for medical treatment.–
Anything is possible in this day and age. We’d all be better off ceasing to look at physicians as religious figures and scientists as gods.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.