This weeks Yated Chinuch Roundtable

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  • #602114

    mraven
    Member

    This was the question in this week’s Yated Chinuch Roundtable: “As a rebbi, I have found that the punishment of sending a misbehaving fifth grader, especially one who exhibits immaturity and silliness, down to the fourth grade for a few minutes, is a strong deterrent. At the same time, I wonder if it is an acceptable punishment, as it really humiliates and demeans the boy.”

    Now to me the question is disturbing enough. I mean you know what else is a strong deterrent? Stabbing. Once you kill one kid, the others will fall in line pretty quickly. But that doesn’t make it right.

    At least this is what I thought until I found out that 8 out of the 10 “Chinuch Experts” were alright with doing this, despite embarrassing this kid heavily, often causing serious emotional and psychological issues for years.

    This is just one of unfortunately hundreds of examples of people just not thinking about what goes through our children’s minds, but did I miss the part of Shulchan Aruch that said that you’re not allowed to embarrass people publicly, except children?

    #875385

    max123
    Member

    Qs is what in the world this round table is doing in a newspaper that the kids read????????? A very bad idea, think about it before ou reply, and if you do i will then tell you some storieds of children reading it and their reactions. Vehamayvin yavin!!!

    #875386

    Toi
    Participant

    Maybe you, as an expert mechanech, should go reform the system. Or maybe your personal feelings (as having been a victim?) wont allow you to see the maalos of such a punishment.

    #875387

    dvorak
    Member

    Funny, my father said when he was kid, the punishment for misbehaving was being sent to the grade above to see how nicely the big kids behaved. Turns out, he was acting out of boredom and finding the older grade’s classes more interesting, it encouraged him to act out more so he would keep getting “punished”…

    #875388

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    mraven is precisely correct. And I find the chinuch roundtable to be a regular embarrassment.

    Most of the writers should not be allowed within 2000 feet of a school building. We have laws protecting kids from other sorts of abuse, why shouldn’t we protect them from emotional abuse as well?

    My general shitta is, that educational experts are those who can’t hack it as teachers. And I have heard the most outrageous things from these “experts.” I think it would be a great chessed to society if someone could raise the money to pay them all to just go away.

    #875389

    Logician
    Participant

    I didn’t read it – did they disagree with the emotional ramifications, or feel the results warrant it ?

    Your child is not your property. Full Hilchos Bein Adam L’chaveiro apply to him. Embarrassing him in public is almost never justified.

    Toi – yes, I grew up seeing this type of thing happen, not to me. It is abundantly clear that the feelings it engenders are absolutely not worth any possible short term gain.

    And before you sarcastically call me an expert mechanech, I’ve heard an “expert’s expert” in chinuch refer to such punishments as retzichah.

    #875390

    Logician
    Participant

    mraven – I didn’t read it – did they disagree with the emotional ramifications, or feel the results warrant it ?

    Your child is not your property. Full Hilchos Bein Adam L’chaveiro apply to him. Embarrassing him in public is almost never justified.

    Toi – yes, I grew up seeing this type of thing happen, not to me. It is abundantly clear that the feelings it engenders are absolutely not worth any possible short term gain.

    And before you sarcastically call me an expert mechanech, I’ve heard an “expert’s expert” in chinuch refer to such punishments as retzichah.

    #875391

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m starting to like this logician guy.

    #875392

    aidel_maidel
    Participant

    pba- i agree!! obviously if a kid is acting like that its because he has some sort of issue. maybe he lacks attention at home. why not get to the root of the problem instead of making the kid worse? I heard that there are still yeshivas around where rabaim and principals smack the boys- INSANE!!! I mean how would a rebbi feel if parents came and smacked his children- i think that would make them think twice about smacking someones elses child

    #875393

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    One of the reasons why I am not renewing my subscription.

    #875394

    Logician
    Participant

    AM – I would have to assume that anyone who teaches in a school that still allows hitting, also sends their kid to such a school, and therefore probably has his kids smacked by others.

    The question about hitting has nothing to do with parental rights, but rather with the long term emotional effects, especially, or perhaps specifically, in our generation. If you don’t trust your child’s rebbe to discipline them, then take them out of his class – emotional abuse is still going strong in our schools, and personally I think that such abuse hurts your kids much more than a potch (especially in a system where potching is the norm).

    R’ Wolbe points out that yelling at your kids can cause more damage than hitting them – ever yell at (your) kids ?

    #875395

    Logician
    Participant

    PBA – I think these educators’ main issue is their tendency to generalize, in an area which is all about individuality.

    And I think that has an effect on this topic too – they focus on these concepts in an abstract way, which can lead them to conclusions which they would realize are ridiculous if they thought out the scenario in a personal way.

    And thank you.

    #875396

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh, I don’t think their problem is anything so sophisticated.

    I think they are just plain old-fashioned, stupid.

    #875397

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The berdichever would say, that they are even trying to be mechanech kids while they are emotionally abusing them!

    #875398

    Logician
    Participant

    well, undoubtedly some of them are. But I know some who seem quite intelligent, and still sprout some pretty stupid ideas, so..

    #875399

    Doswin
    Member

    Doesn’t a befeirush pasuk in the Torah, and codified in Shulchan Aruch as halacha, tell us we shall hit our children?

    #875400

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Does it?

    #875401

    Doswin
    Member

    Mishlei 13:24, S”A OC 551:18, S”A YD 245:10

    #875402

    longarekel
    Member

    There is no such pasuk in the torah. The pesukim in mishlei mention using a shevet to discipline one’s children(not one’s hand or foot) and the gemara bava basra 21a says regarding students to use a shoelace. In addition some say (rav wolbe among them) that nowadays one should not hit at all-child or student. Regarding the issue of the OP, that won’t solve anything. To be honest I don’t know how embarrased a fifth grader will be, but he’ll be angry and confused and will act out even more. I’m no expert but I was in fifth grade and I acted out alot so I know. If a kid is acting out there’s a reason. Find out what it is and help him. Maybe these chinuch ‘experts’ too had issues when they were younger that were never dealt with…

    #875403

    Doswin
    Member

    The S”A says to use a small strap to hit your child.

    #875404

    snjn
    Member

    Doswin: Interesting how you are so makpid to follow the S”A in the precise details for this “mitzva”. Are you as makpid in all the other details of the S”A, particularly as pertaining to interacting with children, as parents and teacher? If you are not, what made you choose to be extra meticulous in this? Shows how ulterior motives get cloaked in righteousness. Those gedolim who were meticulously makpid in every detail of S”A also treated children in a way that commanded respect without demanding respect. And believe me, that didn’t include humiliating.

    #875405

    Doswin
    Member

    snjn: Just because you don’t like a part of the S”A, does not mean others share your disdain for portions of the S”A. In fact, I fully adhere and accept every part of the S”A, including the portions you reference.

    #875406

    soliek
    Member

    Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach.

    #875407

    snjn
    Member

    I don’t have disdain for any portion of the S”A just for people who pick and choose one detail to harp on when they neglect some other equally valuable. Often the people who do this choose one detail that allows them to be strict with other people but interestingly enough they don’t choose the ones which take their own self out of their comfort zone. I don’t mean you specifically because I don’t even know you at all so I apologize if it came across as personal.

    #875408

    mosygold
    Member

    soliek, I wonder who your kids’ rebbeyim/teachers are, and how you respect them. Sounds to me like you feel they are a bunch of loi yutzlachs.

    #875409

    mytake
    Member

    I am not from those idiots who are afraid to punish their kids because, holy God, they’re gonna grow up to to be emotionally wounded. However, humiliating a child is never an option.

    I read the question last week Thursday, but I didn’t even bother reading the answers because I was sure that most of em would just criticize the rebbi for even asking something like this. It hurts me that I was wrong.

    soliek- That was uncalled for.

    #875410

    kollel_wife
    Participant

    Most of the writers should not be allowed within 2000 feet of a school building …My general shitta is, that educational experts are those who can’t hack it as teachers. And I have heard the most outrageous things from these “experts.” I think it would be a great chessed to society if someone could raise the money to pay them all to just go away …

    Are you serious – is this how a Jew should talk?

    Rambunctious boys sometimes need to be put in place. I don’t recall any big embarassment when my boys were sent home or sent to a lower grade.

    Do you really think Rav Yaakov Bender believes emotional abuse is ok? How can you write like that publically about Chashuve people? After reading that I want to never come back to this web site.

    #875411

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was a story in the Faranak Margolese book, told by a woman.

    She had gone to a movie over the weekend (I forget if it was PG or R) the following Monday the principal of the school came into her classroom and opened the window and yellow P U. That there was an awful stink in the classrooom.

    He pointed to the woman and said it was her fault for going to the movie over the weekend and embarrassed her to the entire class.

    She is not religious anymore

    #875412

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Are you serious – is this how a Jew should talk?

    Rambunctious boys sometimes need to be put in place. I don’t recall any big embarassment when my boys were sent home or sent to a lower grade.

    Really? Then what was the point of the punishment?

    If your kids aren’t telling you their feelings, that is a whole different problem.

    Do you really think Rav —-


    believes emotional abuse is ok?

    I don’t know him, except by the stuff he writes. And I don’t really keep track of what he write from yated to yated.

    Just to get your idea straight: So I am not supposed to criticize any school principal?

    These people are not gedolim. They are at best nice principals, and at worst clowns.

    #875413

    essy8
    Member

    any other teachers on here to weigh in opinions? i teach in an elementary boys yeshiva, and its very common place to send a boy down a grade for a while as a last resort punishment. personally, i am very careful not to speak harshly or not to embarrass a student, and i’ve never noticed that this is a super-harsh or embarrassing punishment. they see their brother/cousin/friend and do their work in isolation and boredom. again, i’ve never seen a boy distressed by it. its a shlep and they have to tell their parents, but thats it.

    now if i would threaten to send them to the principal, they literally cry and turn all sorts of colors. so why is it so bad?

    #875414

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    i teach in an elementary boys yeshiva, and its very common place to send a boy down a grade for a while as a last resort punishment. personally, i am very careful not to speak harshly or not to embarrass a student, and i’ve never noticed that this is a super-harsh or embarrassing punishment.

    Ok, why don’t you tell us what the purpose of the punishment is, if not to embarrass the kid?

    they see their brother/cousin/friend and do their work in isolation and boredom.

    Oh, is that the point. To have a quiet different place to do their work? Then why not send them to the higher grade? Or to the library.

    now if i would threaten to send them to the principal, they literally cry and turn all sorts of colors.

    Judging by the principals who responded to this, I find it quite plausible that what the principals do to them is much much worse.

    Personally, I can tell you that my principal, who was well respected in the community, has a special place in gehenom reserved for him, I am sure. He would figuratively kill little chidlren–but it was very effective. Kind of like the British did by making petty theft a capital offense.

    On another note, this explains why they don’t complain when you send them down a grade–at least you didn’t send them to the monster in the principals office.

    #875415

    essy8
    Member

    yes, i do and would send them to any convenient, supervised, quiet, boring location to do their work. it’s like a time-out; the purpose is not so much to punish as it is to make them desist disruptive behavior.

    about the principal…i can’t really disagree with anything you said. but i used to teach in a different school (fifth grade, boys) where there was no fear of the principal (he was embarrassingly incompetent and served as a figurehead). though i was shocked the first time i saw this principal “in action” it seems to work without long-term effect. the kids are back on friendly terms with him the next day, and i see the high school boys are all friendly and at ease with him.

    there ARE good schools and good teachers around!

    #875416

    longarekel
    Member

    When I was in eighth grade if a kid was acting out he would be sent to the…game room! I kid you not. There was a special room filled with all kinds of games for the super-restless boy who couldn’t sit still in the classroom. So you’re wondering: Why didn’t all the boys act like maniacs in order to be sent to the game room? Well, the answer is because even while you were enjoying the games you knew that you were a failure and that you couldn’t make it in the classroom like a normal person. After a while the boy would go back to the classroom on his own and behave like a mentch (until some time passed and he got restless again). This is a brilliant form of discipline, and causes no bad feelings for anyone. I have tremendous respect for my 8th grade rebbe who thought of and implemented this idea. I was in that game room many times and I don’t know where I’d be if not for him.

    #875417

    Logician
    Participant

    essy8 – if its an oppurtunity to do quiet work, why did you call it a “last resort punishment” ? In many schools, the kids are specifically told “if you act like a baby go sit with them” and the like. If its clear in your school that that is not the point – which I highly doubt – then your experience is irrelevant to this discussion.

    You see what PBA posted – I know many people who feel this way about their principals. Something wrong here.

    #875418

    essy8
    Member

    it is a punishment, and it is last resort. a child shouldn’t need and doesn’t want “opportunity to do quiet work”. i just think that, as the worst i’ll ever do if a child is disrupting my class enough, its rather mild. and i know that kids are put into my class being told, “if you can’t act like a fourth grader, sit in the third grade classroom” but they never look embarrassed or crushed. at all.

    i can’t account for all principals that people have issues with. i personally cannot even think about my high school principal without getting upset. i treat my students pleasantly and with respect, and i get angry when i hear teachers screaming or demeaning their students. i just happen to think that this can be used as a consequence.

    what would you suggest teachers do instead?

    #875419

    Logician
    Participant

    What else would I do ? So now the justification is the lack of alternative methods of discipline ?!

    #875420

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    essy8:

    I really do not understand what you are saying. You seem to be going back and forth.

    In one post you claimed it was just a way to give them quiet space to work. That seemed innocuous, but as Logician pointed out, therefore irrelevant to this discussion.

    Now you are saying that it is a punishment, and that you do indeed tell them it is because they are acting like babies, but that they are not embarrassed by this.

    I don’t understand: if they are not embarrassed, then what is the punishment? Why do you feel it is a useful deterrent? Punishment implies that you are trying to cause them pain which will deter repeat offenses. (or another theory of punishment; retribution, rehabilitation, or incapacitation.)

    What would I suggest teachers do instead? I suggest they treat the students like fellow humans, and treat them as they would wish to be treated. They might find that the students respond in kind.

    Part of that is allowing the kids room to breath without feeling the need to discipline.

    For example, imagine a kid is sitting at his desk and wearing his snow boots on his hands. You can tell him to stop, and then when he starts fiddling with his tissue box tell him to stop, and then when he starts passing notes tell him to stop, and then tell him he’s a baby and send him to kindergarten. Or you can just ignore it.

    You say you feel this can be used as a consequence. I don’t know what you mean by “consequence.” Consequence sounds that you feel that misbehavior “deserves” punishment, and that it is “justice” that actions have consequences. I don’t think that is a goal a rebbe should have toward his students. I’d leave the consequences to G-d.

    And finally, I still cannot fathom how you do not think it demeans a student to be called a baby in front of his classmates, and be sent to the lower grade for a vivid picture of how you really do think he is a baby.

    #875421

    Logician
    Participant

    You might notice that the question in the paper took as a given that the boy would be very humiliated and demeaned. The answers were given with that presumption.

    And I hope you know kids better than to judge the effect of a punishment based on their reactions. A kid who shows humiliation upon punishment usually is not the one regularly getting punished. The kid who’s a discipline issue will usually either act defiant, or just act cool with the whole thing – what’s going on inside, or how it will effect his outlook towards his rebbeim in general, is another story.

    #875422

    essy8
    Member

    why do you assume that a punishment is to “cause pain”?? i think your example with a kid fiddling at his desk is not true to life because i can’t imagine punishing a kid for fiddling/drawing, etc. i’m not going back and forth, and i never said i “call…babies”

    i said: i think that just as you put a kid in the corner in playgroup when he hits, or send him to his room to calm down, a kid can be put in the hallway, or computer lab, or office, or diff class to do his work. a step more severe, which i’ve never had to do, is to put a kid in a lower class. this takes away the reinforcement he gets from his classmates and makes him do his work.

    i did say that other teachers put kids in my class pretty regularly and i know they’re told that they can’t behave/do their work with their class so they’ll do it with the third grade. thats very different than being called a “baby”. this happens so often and so not harshly that i’ve never seen a kid embarrassed.

    it looks like you want to paint the whole world of chinuch black. its easy to go on a website and say things like “those who can do…” and to say very harsh things about mechanchim and the “whole system”.

    i did not read the article, by the way. i saw this thread and wanted to know if there are other teachers here, not backseat ones, and what their thoughts are.

    finally, i find popa’s line about “treat the students like fellow humans” offensive because i specifically said that i’m very careful with derech eretz as are many teachers i know.

    #875423

    Logician
    Participant

    OK, first – I am not a Rebbi in a classroom, but I am in the field of chinuch.

    “this takes away the reinforcement he gets from his classmates and makes him do his work.” – and it does this better in a classroom with younger kids because……?

    “a step more severe, which i’ve never had to do, is to put a kid in a lower class” – and yet other teachers do it regularly, you say. So once again, why is your individual experience relevant to the issue, if clearly many others do it differently ?

    “i know they’re told that they can’t behave/do their work with their class so they’ll do it with the third grade. thats very different than being called a “baby”” – so you agree that such a scenario would be very wrong. That’s what we’re discussing. Hi there, welcome to this thread.

    And there’s no reason to be offended – PBA was clearly referring to teachers who humiliate kids. If you feel you’re not one of them, good for you. Then again, you’re basing that on the kids reactions, which I’ve already responded to before.

    #875424

    Logician
    Participant

    Essy8 – As someone who is both a parent and in chinuch, I resent your implication that only teachers, and not “backseat ones”, can give a meaningful opinion on the matter.

    Teachers have the advantage of dealing with a wide variety of children, and the classroom setting is different than other chinuch situations. Granted. However, as parents, we are all mechanchim, and out thoughts on chinuch matter very much. Add to that the fact that chinuch is an area where common sense is more of a factor than learned skills, and there is no reason to assume you’re random rebbe has a better grasp of chinuch than your random (thinking) parent.

    #875425

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    essy: Please don’t take offense. I don’t know who you are, and all I am doing is responding to words. My line to treat students like humans was addressed generically; if you do so, then good. My experience has been that many teachers do not do so–they think the regular rules of bein adom l’chaveiro are somehow suspended for students.

    I assume a punishment is to cause pain, because there are 4 general theories of punishment.

    1. Deterrence. This is the most popular theory among the general populace. It means that you make the expected cost of the action more “expensive” than the benefit. So that if you save a dollar by not paying a meter, and will get caught one in 25 times, the punishment must be at least $25. The idea is to impose a punishment which will hurt enough to deter the action.

    2. Retribution. This is the most true one. Society punishes because it makes us feel good that guilty people are punished. That is why we punish bank robbers more seriously than embezzlers, even though embezzlers do more harm. This is the notion that a rebbe should never feel toward a talmid.

    3. Rehabilitation. The idea is that being in prison can teach the criminal new skills and a new way to deal with life. We are not punishing, we are just helping. In this type, it does not matter whether the person is blameworthy, only that the criminal is doing socially unwanted actions.

    4. Incapacitation. Popular among liberals, it is just that you can’t rob banks from prison.

    i did say that other teachers put kids in my class pretty regularly and i know they’re told that they can’t behave/do their work with their class so they’ll do it with the third grade. thats very different than being called a “baby”

    No, it is exactly the same as being called a baby. I am astounded you would claim otherwise.

    i said: i think that just as you put a kid in the corner in playgroup when he hits, or send him to his room to calm down, a kid can be put in the hallway, or computer lab, or office, or diff class to do his work. a step more severe, which i’ve never had to do, is to put a kid in a lower class. this takes away the reinforcement he gets from his classmates and makes him do his work.

    If you don’t do it, then I commend you. However, please recognize that it is not a step further on the same continuum as being sent to the computer lab. It is an insinuation that one belongs with younger children. That is a reason they don’t send the kid to the older class.

    #875426

    essy8
    Member

    thanks for the clarification.

    i think that being called “a baby” is an insult- to me that sounds like the teacher is personally offended or annoyed and is loosing his/her temper with the kid. a parent/teacher should never call names. i would theoretically tell a student, privately and calmly, that if he can’t do his work as befits a third grader then i have no choice but to ask him to leave. with that said, i would give him a chance to show me that he can work. and then i would be reasonable–kids are kids, and esp boys are boys. they’re not going to sit with their hands on their desks behaving like angels till 4:30.

    i personally left school at 16 and went to an oot seminary because of issues i had with my BY. but i think for every person with a bad school experience there are several who had good experiences. i don’t think its fair or accurate to judge all teachers and mechanchim negatively, and paint them black with one brush stroke.

    i don’t regular internet access and wont be able to reply, but i will definitely read any responses when i can.

    #875427

    squeak
    Participant

    What a great way to curb internet addiction we’ve found. Just corner someone in a debate and when they have seen the hopelessness of their position they will suddenly no longer have internet access.

    And now, out of respect for the fact that this thread is about teachers, I wil wipe the smirk off my face.

    #875428

    Logician
    Participant

    Here we go again. Don’t know why I’m doing this.

    “i would theoretically tell a student, privately and calmly, that if he can’t do his work as befits a third grader then i have no choice but to ask him to leave.”

    DAVKA TO A LOWER CLASSROOM OR NOT ? IF SO, WHY ?

    I think you don’t really know the reasoning behind what you do. This time you can go ahead and be offended.

    #875429

    far east
    Member

    Do you really think Rav —-


    believes emotional abuse is ok?

    I don’t know him, except by the stuff he writes. And I don’t really keep track of what he write from yated to yated.

    Just to get your idea straight: So I am not supposed to criticize any school principal?

    These people are not gedolim. They are at best nice principals, and at worst clowns”

    @PBA im very aware of the high status you have acheived blogging however you are dead wrong on this one. Some of these people are gedolim, if you know anything about Rav Yaakov Bender you would know he is not simply a “nice principal” but a tremendous gadol in the community of Far Rockaway. Please think before you say anything negative about such a person whom you’ve clearly never met

    #875430

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    @PBA… you are dead wrong on this one. Some of these people are gedolim, if you know anything about Rav Yaakov Bender you would know he is not simply a “nice principal” but a tremendous gadol in the community of Far Rockaway. Please think before you say anything negative about such a person whom you’ve clearly never met

    That is precisely my point. I don’t know anything about him at all. I am simply responding to one week’s edition of the yated, which I didn’t even read! I just heard about it, and am familiar with the concept.

    We may have a different concept of what a gadol is. There also is no magic status called gadol.

    I think I can criticize most every elementary school principal I know. And I think I can criticize ideas coming from unknown elementary school principals.

    And I think you can criticize me.

    #875431

    far east
    Member

    Rav Bender is not simply a elementary school principal he is a rosh yeshiva for the biggest yeshiva in the United States…I disagree with your statement on the concept of a gadol. Calling a person a “gadol” is a subjective statement. Instead of getting caught up in the precise defintion, what matters is that he is a special person and not simply a “clown”

    #875432

    adocs
    Participant

    to all who have responded so critically regarding the rebbeim in the column:

    who here has bothered to actually read the column?

    I finally took a look and scanned through (No, I did not read every word) and while some rebbeim seemed to be saying that it would be OK, they ALSO qualified their answers (conveniently it seems that this has not been mentioned by anyone here) such as –

    “it should be very low on the list and utilized only in the most extreme cases”

    “it is generally not acceptable to send a child down to a younger grade”

    “we will resort to this type of discipline when necessary” (resort to – now there’s someone who’s just itching to embarrass the kids)

    “not as a first option”

    these are actual quotes from 4 different “yes” responders.

    If I wanted to quote from all “eight” I would not be able to, as only six of them said some form of yes. That’s right. 4 of the 10 said no.

    I am not giving my opinion one way or the other on this, but please base your criticism on actual facts and don’t change the facts to give yourself a soapbox to bash rebbeim for whatever your reasons are.

    #875433

    Logician
    Participant

    very interesting, if so the OP did misquote a bit

    But I don’t think its all that relevant. The OP said that the ends don’t justify the means, and the fact that they consider it “not a first option”, while nice to hear, doesn’t really change things. In fact, i wonder – if its a last resort, that means they understand its effect on the kid. So they’re justified because they don’t have other discipline methods ? Or are they just agreeing that its really harsh, and therefore a last measure – in which case we’re back to square one.

    And the main point here was not about those particular mechanchim. It has been made clear from many posts that this is a regular occurrence, and that the point is basically public humiliation. This is what’s being condemned.

    (Well ok, PBA has a problem with mechanchim, but he has pretty much a problem with everyone, so…)

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