This week's Yated Shidduch Forum…
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- This topic has 142 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 3 months ago by AZ.
December 19, 2010 12:18 am at 12:18 am #593574
did anyone read the question in this week’s yated shidduch forum? it’s about shadchanim charging $150 doillars to just meet them… i did it and not ONE thing was done for me! i am very upset about the money (and time…) spent on NOTHING!! so i want to hear other’s thoughts about it!December 19, 2010 1:50 am at 1:50 am #722876an ideaParticipant
I’m assuming you are a girl in which case you don’t know whether they are tryin to suggest you to boys or not. Shadchanim cannot force a boy to give a yes. I would suggest you give them a friendly reminder to try to continue to work for you.December 19, 2010 5:19 am at 5:19 am #722877dunnoMember
This, AZ, is exactly what I’m talking about.December 19, 2010 6:22 am at 6:22 am #722878
I did read it and half the shadchanim should be ashamed of themselves. As R’ Yoffi said in his answer shadchanim are taking advantage of the masses.December 19, 2010 6:36 am at 6:36 am #722879cshapiroMember
I hope this means I get $$ if pb and sac go out even once!!!December 19, 2010 6:56 am at 6:56 am #722880
Among which other professionals/laborers are there individuals who are willing to work, and give of their time and effort for free? Let’s start suggesting that when someone badly needs anyones services, people should offer their services with a full heart for zero.
If this is anyone’s fault, it’s the difficulty that Shadchanim face when dealing with many singles, especially guys (sorry guys), but some girls as well, who feel they have to date upwards of 100 individuals, similar to those who have to taste 100 flavors of ice cream, before they find the “right” one. It has never been proven that those who dated more/longer have happier marriages.December 19, 2010 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #722881
Real estate agents and others only get paid if the sale goes through, even if they worked very hard on a potential sale that fell through.December 19, 2010 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #722882A23Participant
TMB, that’s not always true. In some states, once the broker brings a ready, willing, and able buyer, the broker has earned the commission.December 19, 2010 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #722883artchillParticipant
Fees are for trained and educated professionals for their profesional services. They have no malpractice insurance for misinformation they supply to further the sale. They are not members of a professional organization that makes sure they live up to ethical and professional standards. It’s a chutzpah to charge $150 or any fee to meet someone.
Unless shadchanim nowadays feel they are Jewish fortune tellers or Tarot readers. Please let us know!December 19, 2010 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #722884tikvuchkaMember
well here is my question: I met my husband through a dating website via a shadchan. The shadchan was VERY unhelpful and we ended up using my sister as an intermediate until things got serious. Now the shadchan keeps emailing me for shadchanus…as if she actually did something. She doesnt know him or me, only that we were both registered on a website. Do you think we should give her? How much? our families are not involved so we started sending her from our own money 100 a month but she emailed me to tell me it was not enough. I need to give 1000 azll at once. do you agree? she really did nothing, and if not for my sister, the shidduch wouldnt have gone throughDecember 19, 2010 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #722885popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You should ask a rav; we don’t like to mess around with this stuff.
Seems the general custom is if one makes the match and one does the work, the one who does the work gets 2/3 and the matchmaker gets 1/3.
For you, it looks like this person did not do the match, or the go between, so gets nothing.December 19, 2010 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #722886
TMB, when real estate agents finally make a sale, what do they earn relative to a Shadchan?
tikvuchka, both Shadchan and you should agree on one Rov and ask together. Then you’ll both know you did the right thing and have no guilt.December 19, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #722887
There are MANY professionals/laborers who do not charge for consultations. When was the last time you got an estimate from a painter and he charged you? I work in a law firm, we dont charge for consultations (most firms that make money based on a payout, dont charge for a consultation) What about a mechanic? The list goes on and on.
What shadchanim are doing is bogus, it is a way of making money for doing nothing.
I think most people would be more than happy to pay the $150 once the shadchan gets them the first date, but to be asked to fork over any sum of money with out any guaranteed results is just pure chutzpah. I dont know why anyone would do that.December 19, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #722888
pba, this is an every day scenario, where Matchmakers on a website, who despite not knowing the singles, match profiles, with great attention to details therof, and spend hours doing this. You have to commit to a minimum of hours online, to be a Shadchan on the websites Im familiar with. They often compare notes with other Matchmakers about what the singles want and need, past experiences, aside from the hours spent online making matches. While some Matchmakers put in way less hours and some put in more, only those who do this work understand what this work entails.December 19, 2010 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #722889
sac, I agree on that point. Getting $ if/when you’ve arranged a date, seems right.December 19, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #722890aries2756Participant
tikvuchka, the question that pops up first is when you signed up at the website, did you agree to a fee up front? If that is so, then that fee has to get paid. If there are issues you need to contact the administrator of the website for arbitration. Also look at the rules that you agreed to when you signed up. That is completely different that when just having someone redt you a shidduch. When you sign up you have no idea who the people are in cyberspace or what their qualifications are. So you are in essence taking a chance on them. But no matter who did the work, it was the shadchan who made the introduction and put the two of you together and that was the point of the website, she actually made the shidduch.December 19, 2010 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #722891Brooklyn YentaParticipant
sac: people do it because they feel they should do their hishtadlus. believe me, i’ve spent enough $ in that area. but it’s a huge chutzpah when they take the money, meet you for 10 minutes, and that’s the last you hear from them. you are paying them for a service: the service of actively looking for and redting you shidduchim. when they take the money, but don’t follow through on the service, they are stealing and will have to give a din vecheshbon.December 19, 2010 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #722892
My question is- when did making shidduchim become a BUSINESS??? As far as I know it is a Chesed and a Mitzva!! Not only did not one date come from this but this shadchan did not even contact me about the goings on… a nice short email that she did not forget about me would’ve been nice…. This whole situation makes me feel like another statistic, not an actual person….
And since when does the shadchan who does make an actual shidduch get to request how much we give? What if someone can’t afford $10000??December 19, 2010 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #722893
You said: “I met my husband through a dating website via a shadchan.” You weren’t entirely clear. Did you and your now husband first contact each other directly, and the shadchan came into the picture to ostensibly facilitate the early communications? Or was the shadchan the one who actually suggested the two of you as a shidduch?
If it is the first case, I’m not even sure the “shadchan” is really your shadchan altogether. If it is the second case, then it seems she is completely your shadchan, and you owe her the shadchanus.December 19, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #722894smartcookieMember
Don’t play around with Shadchunis $$. It’s a very serious issue.
But you can give any amount. Doesn’t HAVE to be $1000. And of course it only needs to be given to a Shadchan(if the person did ANY part of the Shidduch process for you.)December 19, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #722895REALISTMember
Why don’t you have the same beef with seminary application fees of $500.00! You know you’ll go to only one seminary, just as only one shadchan will be yours!December 19, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #722896
The proper system is to compensate date #2/date #4. That way it is measurable what the Shadchan has provided (a quality idea), and shadchanim are treated as succeses for prodcucing that which is in their hands.
This method is by far the best way to
1. Encourage all the people (especially young couples) who dabble
in shidduchim to stay the course and not quit.
2. To encourage those already involved in shidduchim to focus on the slightly older girls.
It has been tried tested and is the process of being expanded.December 19, 2010 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #722897
Brooklyn Yenta, “when they take the money, but don’t follow through on the service, they are stealing and will have to give a din vecheshbon”.
Does this apply when a Shadchan calls to convince and cajole multiple possibilities who all reject the idea?December 19, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #722898
Since when do people have a right to call shadcahnim at all hours of the day and night to ask for their assistance in shidduchim? And I mean, ALL hours.
Since when do shadchanim (who don’t take money up front) owe anyone anything?
Since when do people have a right to go over to prevent shadchanim from ever enjoying a simchas by approaching them one after another after another to introduce them to their daughter etc….?
Clearly the present system is broken.
Realize shadchanim (who don’t take money up front) owe you absolutely NOTHING.
Realize that the shadchanim who take $150 up front (some organizations), is simply to put you on their database and they will try. They offer nothing more nothing less. (They should say so up front).
It’s your decision if you do or do not want to pay them for that. (I for one would NOT.)
FYI- I am NOT a shadchanDecember 19, 2010 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #722899
i totally and completely agree with you!!! the system is broken!! i for one do not contact a shadchan at all hours because i know they are a mother/wife/daughter/sister and in general a person who deserves privacy and respect…. but all i ask is that the girls who feel bad enough already to be treated like a person too and in my experience with shadchanim i can tell you that that is not the case…. i once went to a shadchan who literally gave me a lookdown before even talking to me… i saw her head and eyes going over my body, hair, eyes etc…. it was humiliating… and for the record i never went out with someone set up by a shadchan i went to…. i understand that they might be trying but all i want is to feel like a person not a piece of land that is being sold… and asking for money does just that…. the only reason i did it is because this shadchan came highly reccomended and i thought it would be different but it has been the same… but i DO agree with everything you said!!December 19, 2010 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #722900
it doesnt matter what real estate agents make when they close a deal it is still the same thing. most sales positions are close the deal get the money. shadchunim are the same thing- sales people- and should be paid for the deal.December 19, 2010 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #722901Brooklyn YentaParticipant
i was talking about the ones that take the money and that’s the last time you hear from them. if they convince, beg, cajole, etc, if the suggestion is something in the ballpark, great, at least they’re trying. sometimes it can be annoying, but at least they’re keeping you in mind.December 19, 2010 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #722902
1-Do you think there are enough Shadchanim now? I presume not. The existing ones are overwhelmed and barely available.
2-What if 75% of the existing Shadchanim (who have bills to pay) were to stop being Shadchanim, what would you recommend then to encourage more people to be involved as Shadchanim?December 20, 2010 1:04 am at 1:04 am #722903whaleboyMember
From the standpoint of the one going to the shadchan, you should absolutley pay the fee. Hopefuly and in all probability the shadchan will take on your case seriously, work hard on your behalf, return phone calls, etc. The fact is shadchanim are over worked and totaly underappreciated. They can work for HOURS stretched out over weeks to get a couple to go out just to get a “it’s not for me” (which by the way, is fine) my point is that its a lot of work without any certain payoff. Most shadchanim – as in the vast majority – are hard working, well meaning overtaxed people. Give them a break and pay the small fee. Or at least a token of appreciation when they do set you up. I did that consistently and it did wonders for my relationship with the shadchanim. As a matter of fact, I still keep in touch with a bunch of them!December 20, 2010 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #722904
Whaleboy: Thank you. Althoug i would strongly recommend what you did (compensate after having gotten set up) in place of paying the fee up front.
As i have mentioned numberous times, compensating them and treating them like a success when they set you up to date #2/#4 will do wonders for your relationship with them. They are human like the rest of them.
Coffe Fan: I feel for you, however most people are not nearly as considerate as your are in temrs of how when they contacrt and treat shadchanim. As a result, unfourtanetly there are some shadchanim that that due to the tremendous abuse they take have lost some of their idealism that they had when they started. If people started appreciating them for their time efforts etc. you can be sure what happened to you would happen far less, and there would be far far more people who get involved and stay involved.
Of Course: You are sooo correct!
Those that get it- get it. Those that don’t think the wolrd would be a much bettr place off if all the hardworking shadchanim quit. How wrong they are, but I wouldn’t waste my time trying to convince them.December 20, 2010 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #722905
AZ, I was going to reserve judgment till my Yated came in the mail and I got to read this.
How often do realtors get 30K on a deal? Especially on houses worth 60K?
I do not like the idea of institutionalizing paying shadchanim after dates 2 and 4. There is way too much room for abuse and negios on the parts of the shadchan.
What could work – and I know of one community reaping the peiros – is for a COMMUNITY to hire a shadchan to work on its behalf. Of course shidduchim in the community will still come from other sources – Hashem works in amazing ways – but this is an idea that has worked, and maintains integrity for all.
B”H, all of the shadchanim I’ve dealt with, including a few pros, were nothing less than cordial and menschlich, even without greasing the palms. Maybe it had to do with other compensation, like sincerity and respect on our part.December 20, 2010 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #722906
1. communities hiring shadchanim cost much much more (aprox 3k per month) and produce much less results.
2. A community with 100 dating girls hires one shadcahn. A very good shadchan can focus and work on EIGHT girls at a time. What about the other 92 girls. It doesn’t work. In a small community with 20 girls it might work. Though I’m not sure where they get the money to pay a shadcahn 30k just just for 20 girls.
3. Communities that have implemented the date #2/date #4 are excastatic with the results and it has cost a fraction of the cost of hiring a shadchan.
4. As far as abuse on the part of shadcahnim. it is easily prevetable by implementing the plan properly as has been done and is imy”h being expanded to other communities.
5. This has NOTHING to do with greasing palms. This is all about getting attention for sligtly older gilrs and encouraging people who have tried their hand at shiddcuhim to stay the course and not quit.
5. The shadchanim I have dealt with are unbelivingly dedicated, true saints!December 20, 2010 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #722907
Tzippi: As an aside, I’m not sure where you live (though it sounds like out of town) but i didn’t know you can buy a house for 60k.December 20, 2010 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #722908jewish and working 22Member
“2-What if 75% of the existing Shadchanim (who have bills to pay) were to stop being Shadchanim, what would you recommend then to encourage more people to be involved as Shadchanim? “
NOTHING! I would encourage the single men and women to socialize among themselves.
Everyone keeps complaining that shadchanim are overworked, or the system doesn’t work. And they are all 100% correct. The shadchanim ARE overworked and the system sucks!
I am not advocating going to co-ed parties, that is more for the MO groups and not the people who use shadchanim. However, I am saying that the single men and women should not be relying on others to help them. There is an old saying “if you want something done right do it yourself”.
Singles should get together and network themselves instead of having to go through complete strangers who don’t have any stake in the process, only good intentions.
I know of more individuals who were successfully set-up by friends (eventually got married) and not by shadchanim.December 20, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #722910gavra_at_workParticipant
Agree with J&W 22 (surprise):
The market (and that is all shidduchim is, a market) will function as it is supposed to do. Supply and demand. If the Shaddchanim drop out, a new method will come up. Supply will match with demand & equalibrium will be reached.
At this point equalibrium has been reached. There is more of a market for boys (for whatever reason, AZ or not) than girls. Greasing the rails more with more money will not make a difference on a Macro level, but it (just like if you are rich & beautiful) will help on a Micro level.December 20, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #722911ronrsrMember
I would like to point out that there are many fee-for-service real estate brokerages these days. They tend to charge lower rates in total, since their pay is not contingent on the sale closing, so home buyers and sellers can save money.
With that business model, you tend to get more consistent levels of service, and real estate brokers and agents can lead more normal lives.
Perhaps it’s time to be open to having some Shadchans change their business models.December 20, 2010 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #722912havesomeseichelMember
What is wrong with people setting up people they know? Why do we need professional shadchanim? I know of a girl who redt a shidduch for a good friend of hers and it worked- she isn’t married and isn’t a professional shadchan! Yes, it is unconventional but why doesn’t it become more normalized? You have a guest over for shabbos, think about your neighbors, friends, cousins or previous guests you might have had! It can still be done tzniyusly- in this case the girl found a male relative or something like that to take over talking to the bochur. She never had to speak to the guy about the shidduch and it worked wonderfully! Happily married and there would be no other way for the couple to have met- different areas, circles, schools, he has no sisters ect…
I know of other girls who are trying the same way- it is getting more results than professionals…. For this one girl I know, she gets more shidduchim redt via friends and family than via shadchanim (who she has met).December 20, 2010 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #722913
AZ, I live out of town. I wonder where YOU live where a realtor gets 30k for a sale.December 20, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #722914
Real Estate Agents get paid on commission, which is usually 5-6% of the total Purchase Price.December 20, 2010 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #722915
Shidduchim by personal friends and family are MUCH MUCH better than professional shadchanim — whom you need to be wary of.December 20, 2010 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #722916EnderParticipant
I don’t get why everyone is getting all worked up. Welcome to the free market, if you don’t want to pay a shadchan fee, go to a shadchan that doesn’t charge a feeDecember 20, 2010 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #722917be goodParticipant
I’ve been a lurker for a while but decided to post- so hi to all first off before I offer my two cents!
Here are my thoughts on this topic:
1) I think that before a shadchan makes you come and meet them, they should talk to you on the phone to see if they deal with people that are in your ballpark so you know that this could be worthwhile for you, then…
2) They should charge a fee only after they have managed to set you up on a first date or (going by the date#2/date#4 concept) after a second date.
Of course, any honest person tells someone this when making the appointment in addition to telling them how much they charge when/if they make a shidduch (just like a doctor, lawyer or any other professional would). This way if the single doesn’t feel comfortable with the arrangement they can say so and back out.
Generally, it’s hard to differentiate in real life between ‘professional shadchanim’ and ‘others’. Both try really hard. Both go beyond their ‘call of duty’ (if they have one). Both use the same coercive methods… and both would really like to see you happy.
Although I agree that the ‘low profile’ shadchanim (ie people who are friends and acquaintances) generally are more on the mark and are usually less hurtful and more respectful and sensitive to singles.
Ah, I have many a story to tell about shadchanim who took advantage of a single girls desperation and charged her for their time… only never to be heard of again.
Let’s see, there’s the one who had me come over on an erev y’t… and had all (9 or was it 10, dunno, it felt like 15) of her kids jumping up and down around us on the couch… in between her taking the phone every time it rang… so that we never actually had a conversation…
Then there’s the one who was more of a family acquaintance (or so I thought) and I happened to be visiting in the area and (although she had never done much for me in the past) I thought I’d go in and say hi… she then charged me as well, saying that it’s good to give someone an incentive to work for you… I was so shocked and uncomfortable that I shelled out the cash… mind you, I never heard from her again…
One more thing- I noticed one of the posters saying that “Singles should get together and network themselves instead of having to go through complete strangers who don’t have any stake in the process, only good intentions. “
This is really not so easy to do. With our society and communities built the way they are, there aren’t many opportunities for singles to network in a way that is comfortable for them (weddings and other social events can be really uncomfortable).
The only way I can think of to do this is for singles to arrange separate evenings for girls to come together and suggest ideas for each other from the pool of guys that they have dated or have researched with a married person who would be able to follow up on the suggestions and vice versa for a guys evening.
That’s it for now.December 20, 2010 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #722918
1. It is NOT greasing the rails
Havesomeseichel & TMB:
This has nothing to do with professional shadchanim. Why is it that the vast majority of young couples dabble in shidduchim when they are newly married, yet within a year they drop out i.e. QUIT.
The answer is because no sane person likes feeling like a failure.
I am advocating a concept that will encourage classmates, friends, acquantacnes to stick with the program and look out for those they know and care about. If they are treated like successes for their valiant attempts, They will stick with it. If they are treated like failures they most certainly will quitDecember 20, 2010 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #722919gavra_at_workParticipant
If you are saying that only older girls should pay to play, then it will help those who do. But what stops the younger girls from also paying? And if they do, you are back where you started.December 20, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #722920apushatayidParticipant
Shadchanim can charge what they want, when they want and how often they want. You are free to use the services of someone else.
(If you have an issue with shadchanim, I imagine you also have an issue with yeshivos and seminaries who charge an application fee, a registration fee and then tuition. Leave this discussion to another thread).
I am NOT a shadchan (not in the professional sense anyway) and dont know any professional shadchanim, but I would imagine the $150 (or whatever they charge) for the “initial consultation” is to weed out those who are serious from those who are looking to throw as much as they can against the wall in the hope that something sticks.December 20, 2010 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #722921
Ah, thanks Sac. I should have thought, he’s dealing with a market where houses go for 600K. No one in my community has a house anywhere near that. That’s why the analogy didn’t work for me.December 20, 2010 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #722922
no its a way to make money from desperate girls.December 20, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #722923
GAW: now you’ll begin to get it….
1. communites, shuls, schools (classmates) that implement it will (are already) of course do it for the girls that are slightly older and not for the 18/19 year olds.
2. If/when it gets to the point that parents themselves do it, inevitably – over all – it will be the parents of slightly older girls who will do it before parents of the 18/19 yr olds do it.
Thus this will create a tremendous amoutn of foucs for the slighlty older girls and it’s extemely cost effective as the money is only spent after the results are produced…
(it’s actually brilliant if i must say so myself…)December 20, 2010 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #722924havesomeseichelMember
AZ- the girl that I referred to was not married at that time…
No one likes to feel like a failure but when the shidduch comes through, you feel better than a million dollars. Knowing the zchus it is, knowing that their eternal happiness is because of you, knowing that their children forever and ever are learning torah and around because of you…
Application fees are not the same:
a) they are much cheaper- $60 sometimes
b) they weed out those who are applying to every seminary. When there are shidduchim involved, there is no weeding to be done because they ALL want a shidduch.
c) the school ect will be considering you. You get the interview. At least those girls I know of who applied to sem- everyone got an interview.
d)The fees pay for the plane ticket of the Rav to interview. You see where the money is going- to help the seminary and to pay for mailing the applications! Many seminaries have an American address and they pay to get it to E”Y… expensive!
Bottom line- you get something out of it when you deal with application fees. The shadchan has no reason or requirement to ever get back to you. I know plenty of girls and guys who went to shadchanim, met, and were either not given the time of day (basically the shadchan checked off boxes and didnt ever meet or talk to the person) or never heard back. when they called (and it was normal, waking hours) they were told “Oh, I am still thinking”. many times it was because they have binders of people and don’t have the time for each one. Yes, you might not know anyone who may be for me but why take my money before you met me?
Do you get a better chance at finding your beshert by paying money?December 20, 2010 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #722925
But thats nothing. There are “Luxury Realtors” (Christies, Hilton & Hyland) who wont take a listing unless it will at least get them a 60-70K commission, and thats for starters!
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