November 12, 2018 10:09 am at 10:09 am #1621321
Why is it that anti-vaxxers need to have herd immunity explained to them every single time?November 12, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1621399
Iv’e wondered the same thing
I can only conclude that in spite of what they claim they (generally) haven’t done much research and are not very intelligent. And have trouble understanding and/or remembering the same idea that is explained over and over again.
Even if herd immunity wasn’t real. you would think that by now those in the pro-disease camp , would at the very least know the response they will get to the same question asked over and over and over
yet, they do not seem to expect the answer.
I can’t think of any other possibilityNovember 12, 2018 11:45 am at 11:45 am #1621439
Anti-Vaxxers explicitly rely on herd immunity to protect themselves; without herd immunity they couldn’t avoid getting the immunization (since they’d then be at serious risk of contracting the disease.)
So the anti-vaxxers need most everyone else to get immunized so that they can not get immunized. They don’t want most people to become anti-vaxxers because that would collapse their scheme.November 12, 2018 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #1621769
Because it contradicts their worldview they can’t afford to believe it. there’s studies that people can forgets things that bother themNovember 14, 2018 11:38 am at 11:38 am #1623384
Herd immunity is a theory that was never proven.November 14, 2018 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1623386
WB Torah613! Long time no see.November 14, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1623402
“Herd immunity is a theory that was never proven.”
Putting aside the fact that that statement is false (though ot be fair it depends what you mean by “proven”
that in no way answers the question.
The question wasn’t “Why is it that pro-diseasers not accept herd immunity”
In which case your point would be relevent (if it was true).
The question was “Why is it that anti-vaxxers need to have herd immunity explained to them every single time?”
In every discussion Ive had wit h people “who have done their research” both in person and online, this always comes up. There are p[probably dozens of threads on ywn I’d bet that every one has some pro-disease individual asking “why does it matter what I do if your’re child is vaccinated?” or something to that effect as if they thought of some briliant question that has never been asked beforeNovember 14, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1623403
Herd Immunity may or may not be proven. But with these diseases making a comeback, and ground zero being Rockland County, Ocean County, and Brooklyn; I would suggest that ‘herd non-immunity’ is being proven before our very eyes!!November 14, 2018 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #1623410
Herd immunity is a theory that was never proven.
As opposed to the link between autism and vaccinations, which was?November 14, 2018 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1623419
Besides the health risks of vaccination, it is important to discuss the issue of corporate and federal fraud by the vaccine companies. As a parent, if a company is being sued for fraud regarding their product, why in the world would I want to give that product to my children? Merck is currently being sued for fraud for withholding data about the effectiveness of their mumps vaccine. GlaxoSmithKline recently paid $3 billion dollars in a fraud settlement case. Not to mention the fact that the pharmaceutical industry is the biggest defrauder in history under the False Claims Act. Yet, legislation continues to be put in place to protect these corporations and not the population. As a mother it is my right to protect my children from these criminals. Research before you vaccinate your helpless child. Dont let anyone scare you! Vaccination is medication! Why are you medicating your healthy child. Does the One Above not know what hes doing? C”V. Does he send down imperfect babies to the world that we have to mess around with them & drug them up right away…Please be careful before you pump the bloodstream of your loved ones with garbage.November 14, 2018 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1623421
Truthishidden, I hereby formally accuse you of being an anti-vaxxer.November 14, 2018 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1623425
Kavod Habriot, I accuse you of being an anti-vaxxer as well.November 14, 2018 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1623426
At the risk of wasting my breath on someone who is likely too close minded to consider the truth:
it is important to discuss the issue of corporate and federal fraud by the vaccine companies
The drug companies would actually make a lot more money treating the diseases than providing the vaccinations.
Merck is currently being sued for fraud for withholding data about the effectiveness of their mumps vaccine. GlaxoSmithKline recently paid $3 billion dollars in a fraud settlement case.
Okay, but the vaccines have been proven effective by others who don’t produce them.
As a mother it is my right to protect my children from these criminals.
As a member of the human race and of klal Yisroel, you have no right to endanger other children who can’t get vaccinated or are in the small minority for whom the vaccines aren’t effective.
Does the One Above not know what hes doing? C”V. Does he send down imperfect babies to the world that we have to mess around with them & drug them up right away…
That’s so hypocritical. Your belief in G-d tells you that He will protect unvaccinated children, but somehow you think He’s powerless ch”v to protect them from the ill effects of the vaccines?November 14, 2018 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1623447
DY: The drug companies would actually make a lot more money treating the diseases than providing the vaccinations.
Actually keeping people healthy is not lucrative.
Vaccinations keep people coming back for medical treatment and pharmaceuticals.November 14, 2018 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #1623446
I think that anyone who is bothered by profits made by pharmaceutical companies is extremely shortsighted. I am thrilled when they make money, and lots of it. You know why? Because that means that they will keep trying to come up with more and more new drugs to improve and extend our lives. Profit incentive has proven to be the best motivator to produce anything.
All those people that complain about the drug companies making money need to look in the mirror. Are they, or anyone of their loved ones, taking drugs for anything? They should know that is only available in today’s world without those companies. (Obviously it all comes from Shomayim, but Hashgacha has arranged that these companies are the primary shluchim in our world for this benefit.)
Does anyone know how much they spend on research and development of new drugs? And in how many drugs are tens of millions if not hundreds of millions invested in R&D, yet never make it to market? As long as they can make money, they will continue to invest.November 14, 2018 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1623456
Dentists make a lot of money.November 14, 2018 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1623459
The new trend in the Yeshiva community that seems to be emerging is the best and only way to deal with it: treat anti-vaxxers as second-class citizens.
There’s no point is trying to reason with them. The only language they will understand is social ostracism given that their whole belief system is based on being part of a cult of like-minded weirdos. When they see that the social harms of being part of the club outweigh the benefits, they will suddenly start believing in science. Then, the time will come for the rest of us to forgive and pretend to forget that those individuals used to be complete morons.November 14, 2018 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #1623488
About the drug companies–you just have to do a bit of research to find out that vaccines are the fastest growing segment of the US pharmaceutical industry. Some of the recent vaccines to emerge have been blockbusters–making over half a billion dollars a year (Gardasil, Prevnar), so it is really foolish to think that they have our best interests in mind–they are a profit-making business like any other. And unlike common perception, there is plenty of evidence emerging about the lack of safety of vaccines. This is a link to a study that just came out linking aluminum in vaccines to bizarre behavior in sheep. link removed And then just follow links to similar articles (all in scholarly journals) and you may get a real education. To quote the highly prestigious Dr. Marcia Angell, former editor-in-chief of the NEJM (New England Journal of Medicine):
“It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.”November 15, 2018 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1623892
chan56 – YOU ANTI-VAXXERS NEVER STOP WITH YOUR LIES! No wonder there is an epidemic in the Frum communities.
“This is a link to a study that just came out linking aluminum in vaccines to bizarre behavior in sheep”
It’s IRONIC that you brought a study using sheep. Because the Anti-vaxx movement think like SHEEP!
From the CDC:
“Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for decades.
Aluminum salts, such as aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, and aluminum potassium sulfate have been used safely in vaccines for more than 70 years. Aluminum salts were initially used in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s with diphtheria and tetanus vaccines after it was found they strengthened the body’s immune response to these vaccines.
Newer adjuvants have been developed to target specific components of the body’s immune response, so that protection against disease is stronger and lasts longer.
In all cases, vaccines containing adjuvants are tested for safety and effectiveness in clinical trials before they are licensed for use in the United States, and they are continuously monitored by CDC and FDA once they are approved.”November 15, 2018 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1623951
Yes, profit is a good motivator to lie to the public
Take vioxx for example, the company memos indicated they knew it had a severe increase in heart attacks. It was only after half a million people got heart attacks that it was taken off the market. You can see how well the US Drug lords watch over us. Now they had to pay out billions in settlements, and they STILL made money on the drug. This is a company that currently makes vaccines for our Children. And u trust THOSE people with their studies??? Profit comes before people. Always.November 15, 2018 8:00 am at 8:00 am #1623957
You say studies linking autism to vaccines doesn’t exist. William Thompson a former employee of the CDC says those studies do exist, and that he himself was complicit in one such study which proved the link and was subsequently revised and revised until the evidence was buried in the data. Our own government doesn’t want the truth coming to light to protect their beloved vaccine program. Vaccine companies surely wouldn’t allow a study that besmirched their golden products. That leaves it up to us, the consumer, to decide if we want to trust these products. Remember, science always follows money. Always. Studies rarely prove anything that will cause a loss to profits. The victor writes history. In this case, the money writes science.November 15, 2018 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1623979
Just wanted to post the quote from William Thompson:
“I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed.
I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”
It’s mind boggling to me that all the people referring to the first paragraph completely ignore the second paragraph.November 15, 2018 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1623981
Autism isn’t dangerous.November 15, 2018 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1623993
Midwesterner- For the record, all the top grossing drugs on the market do not HEAL anything. Statins don’t heal high blood pressure and diabetic drugs don’t heal diabetes and anti depressant don’t heal depression and painkillers don’t heal pain. All of these are just bandaids. They only work so long as you take them. All of them have lists of side effects a mile long. Most of them give us an excuse to ignore our health (weight, stress, fitness, food choices) so our numbers looks good on paper while we continue to feel unwell. Many of those issues can be addressed with good old fashioned dieting and other natural approaches. Cinnamon and other supplements might lower blood sugar safely but your doctor is not allowed to prescribe it because it isn’t proven and metformin he can prescribe (even with lots of adverse effects) because the makers of metformin spent the millions in studies that no one will do for anything natural. You know why? Because you can’t patent nature. So even if it’s natural, safe and effective, if a real study hasn’t been done, it isn’t real to most of the medical world . This is modern medicine.November 15, 2018 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1623997
I don’t have to read the second half of his words, the first is damning enough. He’s saying that sorry, we lied to you, a disease which now damages one in 36 (up from one in 10,000) which we still continue to deny has been aggravated by the insane vaccine schedule, we hid the data. But hey, keep pumping that poison into your kids. It will only harm one in 36 kids. Are you believing this stuff??November 15, 2018 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1623995
Tell that to the thousands of families suffering from dealing with autism.November 15, 2018 9:10 am at 9:10 am #1624001
And if William Thompson is saying that the government believes the vaccine program must be protected at all costs, that means you believe it is acceptable for them to lie to us and omit and mangle data and commit fraud, all to prevent disease. That you readily admit that and still choose to vaccinate is your choice. I just don’t have to agree with it.November 15, 2018 9:15 am at 9:15 am #1624007
Sariray, I just did.November 15, 2018 9:16 am at 9:16 am #1624006
I don’t have to read the second half of his words, the first is damning enough. He’s saying that sorry, we lied to you, a disease which now damages one in 36 (up from one in 10,000) which we still continue to deny has been aggravated by the insane vaccine schedule, we hid the data. But hey, keep pumping that poison into your kids. It will only harm one in 36 kids. Are you believing this stuff??
Ok, now you’re just showing that you don’t understand how math works.
That you readily admit that and still choose to vaccinate is your choice.
I don’t readily admit that, I’m just debating you on your own terms.
I just don’t have to agree with it.
That’s fine. Just stay away from my kids. And everyone else’s kids for that matter. ThanksNovember 15, 2018 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1624012
To the anti-vaxxers reading this,
Please explain the tremendous drop in the incidence of the diseases (to which vaccinations are available) after those vaccinations became available and began to be widely used.
Please excuse me for a moment while I go get some popcorn.November 15, 2018 9:39 am at 9:39 am #1624025
Meno and RebYidd
Autism is not the only problem with vaccinations.
Maybe vaccines saved many lives, but did it kill as many or more?
That’s not something the medical-funded studies will reveal.November 15, 2018 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1624028
I will, soon as you explain the rapid decrease in thyphoid, cholera, bubonic plague…
I didn’t say vaccines don’t work (they mostly do) but what’s the payoff?November 15, 2018 9:44 am at 9:44 am #1624032
Seatbelts kill.November 15, 2018 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1624062
Bubonic plague was spread by rats. It is not at all relevant here.November 15, 2018 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1624051
Health: It’s a pretty big chutzpah to call someone a liar without checking the facts. The journal is Pharmacological Research and the title of the article is “Cognition and behavior in sheep repetitively inoculated with aluminum adjuvant-containing vaccines or aluminum adjuvant only”. Unfortunately, it is the people who attack others without bothering to check the facts who are guilty of “herd mentality”.November 15, 2018 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1624125
adocs -“Please explain the tremendous drop in the incidence of the diseases (to which vaccinations are available) after those vaccinations became available and began to be widely used.”
It’s a waste of time to argue with these people.
Like Doc Roberts posted on the Lakewood scoop.November 15, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1624139
Health: Again chutzpah–who are “these people” anyway? Your neighbors, friends, and other ehrliche people in the community. And unfortunately, Doctor Roberts is in the same category as the CDC, AAP, and others as he is a nogea bedavar, having made his billions in the pharmaceutical industry. There is BIG money in vaccines, let the buyer beware.November 15, 2018 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1624138
I wasn’t looking to argue. Just looking to be entertained. See comment about popcorn.November 15, 2018 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1624122
sariray -“Yes, profit is a good motivator to lie to the public”
I agree! Are you making Profit when you sell your Alternative Meds Stuff?!?
“The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. ”
The lies keep coming! Was it a double-bind study?
“Statins don’t heal high blood pressure ”
They aren’t meant to!!!!
Why don’t you get one of those pill books?!?
They sell them in Walmart, B&N, Etc.November 15, 2018 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1624118
Apologies for the cheap shot, but how is anyone supposed to trust antivaxx research if you guys can’t even read thread titles?November 15, 2018 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1624160
Dr. Stanley Plotkin is the “Godfather of vaccines.” He literally wrote the book on vaccines. Why don’t you all read his deposition for a court case. Do a search for Matheson Plotkin. You will find it very interesting.November 15, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1624170
Silly Health: of course it wasn’t a double blind study, it was an observational study done after the fact, sifting through data. It would be unethical to do a double blind study, because then the unvaccinated children would be unprotected. (But what if the vaccines are causing problems…)November 15, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1624180
chan56 -“Again chutzpah–who are “these people” anyway? Your neighbors, friends, and other ehrliche people in the community.”
The Only CHUTZPAH is coming from the Anti-vaxxers!!!
Btw, they aren’t My neighbors, or friends.
And they definitely aren’t EHRLICH!
From YWN News:
“Whoever isn’t vaccinated is a murderer” – so reads a Kol Koreh signed by leading Gedolim and Poskim in Eretz Yisroel.November 15, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1624178
I believe the whole anti-vaxxer movement is a conspiracy.November 15, 2018 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1624155
herd immunization works only in terms of children able to get vaccinated. What these anti vaccine people are failing to think of are the children (and adults) with compromised immune systems and infants! infants can not be vaccinated until 6 months. these people are exposing these babies to an extremely dangerous illness that their immune systems are not yet strong enough to handle. It is very self centered and not thinking of anyone else.
Schools are not allowing unvaccinated kids to come to school which means these irresponsible parents are most likely taking them out in the community during the day so they can keep doing their errands and living life thereby spreading the disease even more. While the rest of us with children that either are unable to get vaccinated because of illness or age are stuck in our houses.November 15, 2018 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1624159
Also–to quote from the CDC on how aluminum is safe is akin to asking the fox if it’s okay to leave the henhouse open–the CDC sells 4 billion dollars worth of vaccines each year and is HEAVILY invested in the vaccine program–at any rate, they’re not the ones changing the diapers of the autistic children. Nor are they the ones who have to deal with the plethora of neurological issues plaguing our community. But let’s pull apart the CDC’s deceptive statement:
“Adjuvants have been used safely in vaccines for decades.”
Notice how this statement makes the claim that because they’ve been used for decades, they must be safe. HRT’s were also used for decases, as was DES–both with devastating consequences only found out much later when randomized constrolled trials were done, in the case of HRT’s, and when very strange cancers arose in the case of DES (and by the way, the DES tragedy was discovered by a discerning doctor who happened to ask the right questions, not the FDA).
Next highly deceptive statement:
“In all cases, vaccines containing adjuvants are tested for safety and effectiveness in clinical trials before they are licensed for use in the United States, and they are continuously monitored by CDC and FDA once they are approved.”
Notice that the CDC did not say that “adjuvants” have been tested for safety, only the “vaccines containing adjuvants.” A perfect example of this would be Gardasil–it was tested against a placebo containing the aluminum adjuvant! How then is it possible to find adverse effects of the adjuvant itself?
I recommend that you start looking at some of the recent studies (past ten years) that the CDC doesn’t know what to do about–studies by Schoenfeld, Exley, Shaw, Gherardi, and others.November 15, 2018 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1624191
No the YWN called them murderers. The kol koreh is quoting the shulchan aruch, and then based on this shulchan aruch is saying that people should vaccinate. Additionally, this kol koreh was issued in Jerusalem where the measles has reached more of an epidemic status (although not the halachic status of mageifa. ) This is a halachic issue in which there are different opinions. You ask your rabbi, I’ll ask mine. Unfortunately, I don’t believe you can handle that.November 15, 2018 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1624192
Gold – “Matheson Plotkin”
I did, just now. SO WHAT’S YOUR POINT? Are you another anti-vaxxer, but too afraid to come out and say it?!?November 15, 2018 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #1624194
chan56 -“would be unethical to do a double blind study, because then the unvaccinated children would be unprotected.”
Are you KIDDING?!? The whole Anti-vaxx movement believes YOU SHOULD NEVER TAKE VACCINES!!!November 15, 2018 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1624196
A few questions
1) Many studies are funded by the government . Cinnamon is much cheaper than metformin . The govt pays for a lot of metformin (Through medicare/medicaid) if it were true that cinamon worked as well (or better than ) metformin. Isnt that something that the government would love to prove ?
2) “Cinnamon and other supplements might lower blood sugar safely but your doctor is not allowed to prescribe”
why do you need a doctor’s prescription for cinnamon I don’t understand. If your diabetic take cinnamon if it works great. When it doesnt come i’ll prescribe MEtformin. I don’t really understand the problem.
3) you do know that doctor’s don’t get paid for prescribing medications say Metformin . right?
4) Can the Cinnamon be in Danish form ?
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