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Wow, Using misinformation to come across as educated, is dishonest and instead of accusing the ‘medical establishment’ of lying, I will accuse the posters and the ‘anti-vaxxers’ of the very same accusation as well as fear mongering.
a. Dr. Marcia Angell, to use this as an argument against vaccines is silly, she is a big believer in science, in the very same claim against published data she also makes the claim that alternative medicine has gained popularity yet, in reality, we should not acknowledge them, as only pure science should play a role, her concern was that we no longer use pure science in medicine to the extent that we should use.
If this makes you say that the science that we have on vaccines and immunology is not there, you are reading this wrong.
b. William Thompson, this is a big one, he ‘admitted’ that there is a cover up.. in fact its the other way around, the mere fact that this was taken out of context and used as if this is an admission to covering up the that there is an association between vaccines and autism, is simply dishonest and shows on what the entire religion of the anti-vaxxers stand.
What he said, was while there have been many attempts to recreate the suspected conclusion, yet no correlation was able to be found, (check PubMed 14754936) yet what he said was that after slicing the data, there seems that African American children with autism seem to have received vaccines earlier, this does not mean there is a correlation, nor is there an explanation why among a specific race children with autism have received vaccines at a younger age.
They came up with explanations that are plausible, yet in no way does the data suggest that there is a correlation, which has been proven to be non-existent.
chan56
Participant“The CDC sells 4 billion dollars worth of vaccines each year and is HEAVILY invested in the vaccine program”
I respectfully ask you to back up your claim, there are certain principles that must be agreed upon when entering a discussion, upon which claims can be built.
There’s real evidence that a placebo works in many cases even though medical science doesn’t acknowledge this.
The “government” does not pay for medications. We the taxpayers, pay for them. And the people who run our government and their health offices are generally in a revolving door with big pharma.
chan56
“would be unethical to do a double blind study, because then the unvaccinated children would be unprotected.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…….(can’t breath)….
I didn’t make enough popcorn.
So let me ask you something. The seat belt industry sells “LITERALLY BILLIONS” of dollars worth of seat belts, therefore all of the DMV regulations for wearing seat belts must be bad? Grow up!
IMO all anti-vaxxers should be put in cherem until they vaccinate their kids. If it was only a threat to themselves, that’s wonderful and hunky dory, but there are people who are unable to immunize not because of some garbage medicinal research, but because they have immune deficiencies which puts them at a very high risk of getting infected. AV’s should be ashamed of themselves and think about others for two seconds, stop being such selfish hypocrites.
Question to the Anti-Vaxxers,
If we were to go through each claim and appropriately address it, would you then concede and vaccinate?
If the answer is not in the affirmative, then we are not having a fact-finding discussion, rather a religious debate, which this is not.
chan56
ParticipantRegarding your claim to aluminum in vaccines, I will not enter your premise and what you have posted, You do not need any studies to tell you that Hi levels of aluminum are detrimental to humans (and sheep).
However, this might come as a shocker, MMR vaccine does not contain any aluminum, despite what the anti-vaxxers have been preaching, the MMR vaccines do not require an adjuvant.
The other vaccines that do contain aluminum have been extensively studied in many clinical studies and trials. If you were to compare the exact amount of aluminum those vaccines contain, you would notice that they are far less than what is in baby formula and even in breast milk.
But I am sure that you already knew that, based on your ‘knowledgeable’ claims.
Measles, for those of us old enough to remember, was a nuisance, but not life threatening.
Those of us who do not vaccinate (we’re not ANTI-VAX- we respect your right to vaccinate- just don’t force me to) don’t mind if our kids get the measles in fact wild measles is protective:
Children who are permitted to contract measles naturally are significantly protected against various cancers later in life. In fact, the wild measles virus has oncolytic (anti-cancer) properties.
Journal of Current Topics in Microbiology and Immunology 2009; 330: 213–241Contracting measles in childhood reduces the risk of developing lymphatic cancer in adulthood.
Leukemia Research, 2206;30(8):917-22
Infection with measles during childhood is cuts the risk OF developing Hodgkin’s disease in half.
British Journal of Cancer 2000; 82(5): 1117-21
Adults are significantly protected against non-breast cancers: genital, prostate, gastrointestinal, skin, lung, ear-nose-throat, and others, if they contracted measles earlier in life.
Medical Hypotheses 1998;51(4):315-20
Lymph cancer is significantly more likely in adults who were not infected with measles, mumps or rubella in childhood.
International Journal of Cancer, 2005;115(4):599-605
Children who are required to be vaccinated against measles have had this anti-cancer protection stripped from them for life. They have been forced to trade a reduced risk of contracting measles for an increased risk of developing cancer later in childhood or as an adult.Crone
Before we go through yur studies, I have a 2 questions:
1) Why do you (and I mean you collectively since all pro-diseasers tend to do this) misrepresent things.
for example your quote “Children who are permitted to contract measles naturally are significantly protected against various cancers later in life. In fact, the wild measles virus has oncolytic (anti-cancer) properties.” Is not taken from a medical journal, why do you hint that it is?
Are you hoping we won’t check? Why take the risk?
did you just copy and paste thinktwice. com, without reading it? what else havent you read?2) those in the pro-disease camp often complain that “we dont respect their right” or somehting to that effect.
what about our right to not have our children exposed to those without vaccines? Ok you do you don’t vaccinate. no problem. Just stay away, don’t come to shuls, schools etc that don’t want that?thanks
sairy
“The “government” does not pay for medications. We the taxpayers, pay for them. ”Ok so you don’t know how vaccines nor the government works.
Briefly: taxpayers pay taxes, the government collects it. Now that money can go to decorate an office, buy new missiles or pay for Metformin.
Of course some can always be skimmed off the top too.Are you saying Medicare/medicaid pays for any medication/test prescribed by a doctor?
Of course they try to save money, which brings me to question 1 of the 4 questions I outlined earlierCrone -“Measles, for those of us old enough to remember, was a nuisance, but not life threatening”
Stop with your lying! I do believe your statistics. I did some research on your post.
Your post is what all the Anti-vaxxers say to defend themselves!
I did the research to show the fallacy in the Anti-vaxxer Cult.
When I say I believe your statistics – I’m going to prove that you & the rest of the Anti-vaxxers are wrong.
Maybe someone else will disprove the articles.Cancer causes death usually around 60-70’s.
Cancer deaths in childhood aren’t caused by the things in your post.
So therefore kids should get the MMR. According to Real statistics, eg. Measles vax prevents childhood death approximately .1 – .3%.
So the bottom line is – do you care only about yourself or do you care about your and e/o else’s kids?!?Many people with immune deficiencies are due to vaccine injury.
Crone,
So now the argument against vaccines uses medical research by doctors and pharmaceutical companies?
a. It is not been proven to be preventive, rather used to reduce tumors. Basically this means that regardless if the patient had measles in the past or had a vaccine against measles, It will not change their future chances of getting or not getting the disease, rather the virus can be used as an attempt to reduce the tumor.
Stating that contracting measles prevents cancers is inaccurate and misleading. In fact if one already has antibodies for measles it makes the viral treatment less effective.
b. The treatment trials actually injected the patients with an attenuated modified virus, does this now mean that vaccines are preventive against cancers? of course they are not, yet there is hope that with continued research (by big pharma and spooky doctors) they will eventually be able to use modified viruses as part of certain treatment modalities against some cancers.
Regarding your comment about measles just being a nuance.
a. There is a high admission rate especially for younger patients with some requiring ICU admissions due to the severity of the symptoms.
b. The data suggests that there are permanent disabilities and potential delayed mortality’s associated with the measles virus.
Are you suggesting that the facts and science are incorrect?
To summarize:
Anti vaxxers have this ‘belief’ that.
a. Measles is beneficial.
b. vaccines do not really help.
c. Components in the vaccines are dangerous.
d. Vaccines cause autism.
e. The entire vaccine business is a multi trillion dollar business, the entire world aside from them are involved and are being paid large sums to be part of the conspiracy.
f. Measles is not dangerous.While the above has been proven to be incorrect, It is important to point out the hypocrisy of the Anti-Vaxx movement, the people involved are guilty of precisely what they accuse others.
The majority of people pushing the anti-vaxx movement have a huge interest in pushing this agenda, they are usually involved in ‘alternative’ (read: unproven and unable to withstand clinical trial) medicine.
By capturing audiences that will buy into their agenda, using scare tactics against established evidence based medicine and misrepresenting the data, they gain followers and monetize from it.Why else are so many people emotional about this topic, this should be scientific fact finding discussion, instead of a fundamentalist religion style arguments which makes no sense.
If this issue is so confusing to you, why don’t you consult with your daas torah, why are you resorting to hotlines and conspirators?
“this should be scientific fact finding discussion”
Exactly and not any studies funded by anyone with ulterior motives, not the pharmaceutical/medical and not the alternative.
The studies speak for themselves.Anti vaxxers have this ‘belief’ that.
a. Measles is beneficial. – yes there are benefits to getting the measles
b. vaccines do not really help. – this is not what the “anti-vaxxers” believe
c. Components in the vaccines are dangerous. – true
d. Vaccines cause autism. – true
e. The entire vaccine business is a multi trillion dollar business, the entire world aside from them are involved and are being paid large sums to be part of the conspiracy. – partly true 🙂
f. Measles is not dangerous. – not more dangerous that vaccines are.Truthishidden,
If you make claims, do not expect people to accept them without providing some backing to the validity of these claims.
Once Your at it, why not just state that global warming is the cause to auto immune deficiencies, your exposing the level of dishonesty and ignorance associated with these claims.
So according the you people, getting measles is beneficial? If you were anti-measles vaccines exclusively I might understand that line of thinking. However you guys don’t vaccinate AT ALL. So are all diseases beneficial? Malaria and whooping cough are now “great for your immune system”? Seriously?
The problem with people like truthishidden and other low IQ people like him/her is that they refuse to accept logic, fact, and science. Arguing with them is futile. As this thread, and the others like it, proves they will keep parroting the same debunked, stupid, claims and conspiracies without a shred of evidence backing them. I’m not saying vaccine science and medicine in general shouldn’t be questioned. However, when answer are provided to you and you refuse to accept them there is a serious problem.
2scents -“So now the argument against vaccines uses medical research by doctors and pharmaceutical companies?”
You don’t understand the MO of the Anti-vaxxers! They always thought that they are the real practicers of medicine. Like Dr. Roberts said don’t bother arguing with them – it’s a waste of Time!
It is so apparent that ‘kul haposel bemumo posel”. If you read the posts, which ones sound emotional & irrational?
I cited and quote the medical journals, where are your references?
Here is another point of view written in the British Medical Journal. You can look it up for the references.
Measles: neither gone nor forgotten
Cite this as: BMJ 2018;362:k3976
Wild vs Artificial Exposure to Measles Are Not Equal
There is a fact rarely considered by public health officials: vaccination is not an intervention that eliminates disease exposure for individuals. Vaccination replaces wild exposure with artificial exposure, and they are not equal. We are many decades into mass vaccination campaigns, and it is alarming that instead of the medical and scientific community stepping back to examine the overall impact on public and individual health to see if current strategies should be reevaluated, the focus is on those who question or refuse vaccination.
Experts have acknowledged that the current measles vaccine cannot eradicate measles because of primary and secondary failure.[1] Studies have found that the concentration and duration of maternal antibody protection for infants with vaccinated mothers is lower and shorter than protection provided by non-vaccinated mothers [2] , and it has been found that a third dose of MMR cannot boost protection for any length of time [3] , leaving most adults unprotected. We have entered a vaccine-era of vulnerable infants and vulnerable older adults—populations that were protected when measles circulated naturally. It’s a messy conundrum, and it cannot be laid at the feet of those who opt out of vaccination. For the vast majority of healthy children who can easily handle a case of measles in childhood, vaccination provides no personal benefit and exposes them only to vaccine injury risk and vulnerability to measles in adulthood.
Since industry does not make a single measles vaccine available, that leaves just the controversial MMR that appears to not have had any clinical trials. MMR contains fragmented fetal DNA in the rubella portion, which some find morally objectionable and others medically problematic because of the potential for autoimmunity and insertional mutagenesis [4] . As well, the vaccine is highly contaminated with glyphosate from the gelatin [5] , and there are no studies showing injecting glyphosate to be safe or how it may alter the immune response to the other ingredients. Add that Merck has been accused of falsifying the efficacy of the mumps portion of their vaccine [6] and, Houston, we have a problem.
100% vaccination uptake would not alter the dilemma of vaccine failure or risk. The WHO chose a goal of global eradication before they had a safe tool able to achieve it. Rather than pushing for higher uptake, time and money would be far better spent on implementing rapid diagnosis and notification programs using new technologies to utilize good old-fashioned detection & isolation, researching best and safest measles treatments, and building the basics of healthy immunity in poor communities: clean water, proper sanitation, and adequate nutrition.Crone
ParticipantAppreciate your efforts yet not sure to the reason on why you have posted the article from BMJ, It does not question the efficacy or safety of vaccines, it merely puts it in perspective, and in the authors perspective.
2scents,& vr67 We’re talking about apples, and you’re talking about oranges.
That’s called avoiding the subject.
We’re bringing references, or will supply them if you’re willing.
You’re just ‘flying all over the place’ apparently you have nothing intelligent to say.
You’re calling us emotional-have you reread YOUR posts?
P.S. Yes I care more about my kids, don’t you?
That is why you choose to vaccinate & I choose not to.
If vaccines work, you have nothing to fear,
if they don’t, your child is no different than mine.Look around and see whose kids are healthier.
Yes, I care about my kids, and others around me as well, that’s why I vaccinate. Let me guess @Crone, you also eat all organic and make cookies out of onion flour or ice cream from hummus water? Also, being condescending won’t get you far in life.
One more thing, flat earthers can also bring “references”, doesn’t mean they’re right…
Crone – “P.S. Yes I care more about my kids, don’t you?”
No, you don’t! Because you Don’t VACCINATE!!!
From previous – Measles vax prevents childhood death approximately .1 – .3%.
You care only about yourself, NOT about your and e/o else’s kids!A. Aside from yourself no one is accusing anyone of beinf emotional.
B. Not sure why you say the subject is being avoided. This thread is hyper focused on ‘the’ subject.
C. If vaccines work, you have nothing to fear. Are you arguing that they are not effective?
D. Nothing to worry, this keeps on coming up as if this is some gotcha question. If the question gets a satisfactory response will you pass it on to the rest if the cult?
1. Children younger than 12 months are generally not immune.
2. Acquired immunity regardless if it is from vaccine or from having the measles virus, has been shown to only provide immunity 95-97% of the times, this means that out of every 100 people 3-5 are unprotected.
3. Immunocompromised patients are unprotected.In summary, we care for our babies, those that are not fully immune and the sick.
E. Your ending statement, telling us to look aroyand see who kids are healthier, is this to imply that unvaccinated kids are healthier?
is this your personal anecdotal observation?Interesting statement for someone thats not all over the place and not emotional (your argument, i dont think it matter if someone is emotional or passionate about something)
Are the over 3900 votes on YWN’s poll for allowing non vaccinated children into schools representative of parents of non vaccinated children?
considering the fact that there is currently an epidemic going on, that is pretty frightening
Was the number 36 being in both Meno and Sariray’s posts
on the previous page a coincidence?Add to that value Uncle Ben the number of children per each adult who voted.
It’s not an accurate poll because every time you come on yeshivaworld, you can vote. At least on the app, every time I go on it lets me vote again. People in both groups could be voting 1 time, 10 times or 100 times.
Interjection; Thank you, that’s what I wanted cto know.
I would like to mention a few points that I think everyone should read before continuing to post on this thread.
1) It is childish and Asur to be calling people names and to post derogatory comments in general and even more so on such a public forum. There is a Pasuk in the torah which says “Lo seleich Rachil beamecha” which is the source for the Issur of Lashon Hara. The Chofetz Chaim enumerates all of the various Halachos which are included in the Issur, and I strongly advise that everyone gets a copy and learns it ASAP. Also, in the Halachos for 9 Kislev, The Chofetz Chaim writes how these halachos do not apply to a malshin, as he removed himself from the category of amisecha, he describes a malshin as someone who purposefully goes to a non Jew (in this case to the secular government) and tells on fellow Jews. ( As someone proudly videoed he plans on doing to those who practice alternative medicine)He says that such a person is considered in the same category as a Kofer and an Apikores….
Therefore, I highly suggest that each and every one of you think 3 times before you post a comment and make sure it is permissible.
2) Hashem with His infinite wisdom created humans with the ability to do in this world, an example would be the advancement of science and medicine. People are constantly researching and coming up with data to further progress and advance. Hashem gave us the opportunity to use our minds and faculties, yet with a caveat, we must remember Hashem is the one Who is really in charge.
Rav Hirsh in his sefer “Horeb” explains the Mitzvos practically-how they manifest in our everyday life. Mitzvah number 3 is Avoda Zarah/Shituf. Rav Hirsh on page 6, paragraph 8 (in the English translated edition) explains the hashkafic aspect of avoda zara as follows, “Beware, then, lest you take any creature and, instead of subordinating it to God, place it by the side of God as a deity, or, worse still, as your god.” We have to take care to remember that it is Hashem Who is in charge and it is Hashem who makes us sick and Who heals.
Yes, the vaccinations according to many Gedolim are ok to give and even necessary to give as a part of the necessary hishtadlus. However, we must remember that the outcome has nothing to do with the Hishtadlus we did. We must daven to Hashem and have faith in Him alone to protect us against the diseases, not in the vaccinations. And for those who are immunocompromised and can’t take the vaccinations, obviously that is not the necessary hishtadlus for them and they have to daven . For those who do not vaccinate, there are Gedolim who say taking a vaccination is Assur al pi Halacha and does not constitute hishtadlus but rather borders the terrible belief of “Kochi Viotzem Yadi”. Therefore, now that everyone is doing their necessary hishtadlus we must daven that Hashem protect us all, not just from the measles, but from anti Semitic massacres as well as car accidents, and all else. We must remember WE DO NOT CONTROL THE WORLD. HASHEM IS THE GOD AND HE AND ONLY HE HAS POWER. No it is not the doctors who know the best, nor the pharmaceutical companys, not the alternate medicine practicers. Therefore, when there was a measles outbreak we should get together for a yom tefilla to storm the shamayim o protect us not force mass vaccinations on everyone, perhaps Hashem is trying to send us the message that we are not in control and all we have to do is accept it and apply it to our lives, and hopefully then we won’t need any other messages through scary means.
(I am a Limudei Kodesh teacher, and attempt to impart Emunah into my lessons to hopefully penetrate and prevent the secular world from taking away all the Emunah, yet now with all this hype of the vaccines causing the protection and the antivaxxers causing death and illness, coming from the student’s schools and homes, how I ask you can I hope to impact them with these Ikrei Emunah if everyone else whom they respect is sending the opposite messages?!?!)You have a great deal of arrogance to imply that antivaxxers have more emunah than antidiseasers.
The issur of lashon hora is not docheh pikuach nefesh. The alternative medicine wackos are killing people.
DaasYachid: (I was not trying to push any agenda with regard to the vaccine fight) That may be true, however if you can obtain your same goals through speaking Lashon Hara and not speaking Lashon Hara, then without the Lashon Hara is forsure the better option. Also, I am NOT in any way measuring anyones level of Emunah, I leave that up to Hashem, He does not need my help. However, hishtadlus is to be done on a very personal level with Daas Torah. Therefore, for those who are pro vaccines that is what they believe their Hishtadlus is and they are following their Daas Torah. For those who are anti the vaccines, they believe that giving the vaccines are not included in their hishtadlus, nothing to do with level of emunah but rather different ways of viewing the situation.
And what every single person, no matter which thought opinion or idea he follows must recognize that ultimately it is the Ratzon Hashem that will come out. For an anti vaxxer to believe that by not giving he vaccines their child will be 100% protected from autism is also a lack of Emunah and a belief of Kochi Veotzem yadi, and for a pro vaccinator to believe that it is the vaccine that is protecting him is also a lack of emunah.
Honestly, I think that Klal Yisroel in general has this Emunah aspect that WE need to work on, especially in these most trying times in every aspect of our lives, aside from this vaccine fight.Also, I am NOT in any way measuring anyones level of Emunah, I leave that up to Hashem
Then leave it out of the vaccine discussion.
if you can obtain your same goals through speaking Lashon Hara and not speaking Lashon Hara, then without the Lashon Hara is forsure the better option.
Of course, but do you really think asking the people peddling the alternative garbage will listen if you ask them nicely to stop?
It’s a pity we can post links here. It’s a lot easier to debunk a position when you can refer to a primary source.
Yaasher Koach to trustunHashem:
I think everyone should go back to Bitachon 101 in Shaarie Habitochon.
L’maysa, I have two questions, please answer logically or with references if you can.
.#1, what percentage of the population must be vaccinated for herd immunity to work?
#2 how can a healthy child, vaccinated or not make anyone sick? A person is only contagious when ill. I hope everyone k who has cold or others symptoms stays home & away from others.
The hysteria is unbelievable. I would like it explained, please.DaasYochid: “Of course, but do you really think asking the people peddling the alternative garbage will listen if you ask them nicely to stop?”
“Divrei Chachamim Bnachas Nishmaim”
Also, as far as your Pikuach Nefesh Doche Lashon Hara…. Check with your Rav to make sure that this situation does warrant these types of responses.
“Divrei Chachamim Bnachas Nishmaim”
Please stop posting your anti vaccination opinions. You might be putting people at risk.
(Let’s see if that works)
Also, as far as your Pikuach Nefesh Doche Lashon Hara…. Check with your Rav to make sure that this situation does warrant these types of responses.
I’m not the one who posted the video.
You, on the other hand, should ask your rav if it was mutar to publicly scold the one who took the video.
My question right now is why is it the measles vaccine that has everybody up in arms (I vaccinated all of my children as close to the schedules that existed at the time and added what I felt to be necessary ones out of pocket). It used to be that one could get the vaccine for mumps and rubella separately and nobody seemed to be against getting those vaccines, apparently because of the potentially dangerous consequences of getting sick with those illness. There was actually an outbreak of mumps in EY back around 10 years ago and I was petrified when my vaccinated son, who was 10 at the time, got sick. I was so worried about the sterility issues, which I knew nothing about, but B”H, was told he was too young for it to be an issue. but what if he had been a couple of years older or an early developer? Rubella is almost not heard of and nobody is running to try to get exposed to that illness, particularly not women in their first trimester from what I understand. And what about polio? The fear that people experienced when polio was going around was immense. Are anti-vaxxers against these vaccines as well? I still remember getting the small pox vaccine when I was a kid. Nobody has heard of that illness any more. We live in a different time from when these illnesses were rampant and there was no protection available. I wonder what they would do if they lived back then or when vaccines were just becoming available.
My question right now is why is it the measles vaccine that has everybody up in arms
Because there’s currently a measles outbreak.
trustinhashem
Please tell me, when you finished typing up your foolishness, did you hit “Submit”
why? If Hashem wanted us to be exposed to your “wisdom” He could have just as easily made it pop on the screen without you pressing “submit” or without you having to type it.Please go work on your emunah before you drag the rest of us down with your weak ways
Yes, in fact I did. Unfortunately, I am not on the level where I don’t have to press the ‘submit’ button. However, I am currently working on my Emunah and Bitachon, thank you for being the shaliach to remind me again. It should serve as a zchus for you.
Trust in Hashem -“For those who do not vaccinate, there are Gedolim who say taking a vaccination is Assur al pi Halacha and does not constitute hishtadlus but rather borders the terrible belief of “Kochi Viotzem Yadi”.”
Name one! I heard of Rabbis saying that you don’t have to, but to say it’s Osser – you are sadly Mistaken.
Just a bunch of stats:
90%-95% of the population is needed to be vaccinated for herd immunity from measles, 80%-85% for polio.STATS FROM CDC:
Hospitalization 1 out of 4 cases.
Encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) 1 per 1,000 cases.
Death 1-2 per 1,000 cases.
Ear infections occur in about one out of every 10 children with measles and can result in permanent hearing loss.In 1960, 400,000 people contracted measles, that means about 400 died. The population at the time was 180.7 million. The population now is about 325 million. That means that if no one was vaccinated now, 800 people would have died of measles in 2018. This means that if not for vaccines, 36 thousand extra people in the US alone would have died since 1960. That’s how many soldiers died in the Korean war.
After that, how many people were supposedly harmed by vaccines?
I don’t think it’s worth the risk of not vaccinating.I was told by someone involved in programming YWN that many votes for the poll were submitted over all hours of shabbos. Sounds to me like it’s people who have no connection to yeshivos anyway, and therefore the poll is unreliable.
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