Time for Frum Magazines to Change their Standards

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    It’s time for frum magazines to show pictures of women.

    A. Women are in the world
    B. Jews in the olden days new what the queen looked like; there are female politicians
    C. It’s good for young people to have a healthy perspective on what women look like as opposed to only seeing them on billboard ads.


    I’m assuming you posted this just for the hock and not that you actually care.
    To answer your comments (even though they’ve been answered many times over) and don’t need my input.
    A. Everyone knows women are in the world as women are not banned. It’s the tznius that you should be aware of (and that doesn’t just mean inappropriate pictures)-“Kol Kevuda bas melech Pnima”
    B. Yes, this is what it is in today’s society however, not every frum woman wants to be like a politician
    c. Unless people live under a rock, there’s enough for people to see and not just in a magazine (If you base everything on what you see in a magazine, you are a fool).


    In other words, you feel it’s time for frum magazines to be less frum, and for nebulous reasons, at best.

    A. Women were also in the world before.
    B. Jews in the olden days knew not to look at women, even if they knew what the Queen looked like.
    C. G-d blesses most families with both boys and girls, so that they each have a sense of how the opposite gender differs from theirs.

    The bottom line is that the Torah holds kol kevuda bas melech penima. There is no reason to expose women in any way unless it is necessary for them.


    The Rambam paskens that a husband shouldn’t allow allow his wife to leave the house more than once or twice a month. The Shulchan Aruch paskens the same, except instead of giving a specific number (once or twice) he paskens not to allow her out “too much”.
    How is this relevant at all and what purpose does it have here other than to breed negativity for your entertainment?


    “How is this relevant at all and what purpose does it have here other than to breed negativity for your entertainment?”

    Thats the point. Its been a while since R’ Yosef had a legitimate opportunity to display his core misogynistic beliefs wrapped around some bizarre invocation of daas torah so give him some latitude to make a fool of himself.


    Lakewhut, I have a strong suspicion that you’re a man.

    UJM, I have a strong suspicion that you’re a man as well.


    “How is this relevant at all”

    It’s directly related. If there’s a proscription of them then being outside in public altogether too much, then kal vchomer you shouldn’t be plastering their pictures all over the place to be displayed 24/7. (Even if you disagree with this very strong correlation, you certainly can’t deny this is at least a strong argument.)

    “and what purpose does it have here other than to breed negativity for your entertainment?”

    Why would you assume it’s designed to breed negativity, when all that was said was nothing more than a simple Halacha from Shulchan Aruch and Rambam (that is also in the Gemora and throughout the Halacha seforim throughout the generations without anyone making a machlokes against it.) Unless this Halacha makes you uncomfortable.

    Halachos don’t make me uncomfortable. You do.


    This is very much related to the societal norms. R Salanter was very interested in how German Rabonim were able to work with their community, and he was amused at seeing ladies showing up for the lecture of one of them, saying that if he (R Salanter) tried such an event in Lita, he would be put in cherem.
    So, there is no simple “halakha” here.

    We now live in same countries, but often in different societies. So, each community should follow their reasonable rules without getting crazy in either direction.

    I once observed a funny situation: an academic husband gave a lecture to Jewish audience describing some interesting findings that came from his travels around the world. After the lecture, some people complimented his wife for letting him do such exciting work while holding the fort at home. Little did they know that his wife was an even busier professional, and this traveler was actually “holding the fort” all the days he was not on travel.


    Believe it or not, I accurately guessed the topic of this discussion,
    even *** BEFORE *** I began to read it!

    As soon as I saw the title: “Time for Frum Magazines to Change their Standards”,
    I *** IMMEDIATELY *** guessed — correctly — that the topic of this discussion
    is Frum Magazines showing pictures of women. And I was right!!


    Aseh maat: Sadly, I must admit that your “suspicion” is accurate. I’m sorry for being a man. I’ll try better next time.

    Until then I’ll try to remember that men have no right to talk about halachos regarding women. I’ll start correcting this error of thousands of years of male misogyny by going around to all the Butei Medrashim and Yeshivos that I can to confiscate all Seder Noshim in Mishnayos, Mesechtes Sotah in the Gemoras, of course Mishneh Torah Sefer Nashim and all other such Seforim authored exclusively by (yuck) men.


    “Why would you assume it’s designed to breed negativity, when all that was said was nothing more than a simple Halacha from Shulchan Aruch and Rambam…”

    Because you constantly go out of your way to make your point in the most negative terms that is demeaning to bnos yisroel and treats them as if they were some kind of chattel akin to the way the Taliban are treating the women of Afghanistan. Your misogynistic shtick is getting a bit old and tiresome.



    Hadorah: I paraphrased the Halacha in the same simple language it is written in the Shulchan Aruch and the Rambam. I didn’t embellish or add any commentary.


    My Kehilla B”H is moving in the Frummer direction.
    This is very appropriate for Adar. The Ruv (& Posek of note) paskened we should no longer call it “Megillas E.” But stepping up another level of Kedusha we call it “Megillas Mordecai”
    Our Ruv has also made changes to the Megillah taking out anything improper. Whether tsnius, mentioning women, Goyim, it’s gone. The beauty is at a regular pace it only takes 15 minutes to read the whole Megillah.


    UJM, I’m actually a man too, but I feel bad for your wife if you’re married. And while I’m not learned enough to know exactly where to find these Rambams and Shulchan Aruch’s that you quote without citing any siman or s’if, I have never heard of any godol b’Yisroel, either in our times or earlier generations, who was known to lock his wife in his house against her will.


    I also feel bad for the wives of any men who feel upset when they open a frum magazine and don’t see pictures of other women.


    Our masorah over thousands of years clearly leans towards men taking a more lead role in both family and public affairs. However, that has evolved over times in accordance with daas torah such that today, women are pursuing roles in medicine, science, technology, law and even politics. Some of the gadolim of our time have been treated by medical teams that include both men and women when their lives were at risk. The MKs from the religious parties sit in the Knesset with women aligned in their coalition . All of this is done with recognition of tzinius and common sense. Even in the most conservative segments of the Chareidi tzibur, women no long feel a need to obtain permission form their husbands to “leave the house”. While daas torah is timeless, its also fair to say that the “times have changed’.

    Avi K

    Hakatan, how is it more frum not to mention women? One newspaper printed Caroline Glick’s column under the byline C. Glick ( wonder if their Tanachs refer to Devorah as D. and their gemarot refer to Beruria and B).. That is not frum. It is silly and a chillul Hashem as it makes Judaism look ridiculous.

    Aseh, actually Jewish men have had to listen to their wives since Hashem told Avraham to listen to Sarah. In some cases, aman who wants to change his trade (e.g. become a tanner) needs his wife’s permission.


    Gadol, it’s far more than the mesorah “leaning” in that direction; there are clear halachos regarding the appointment of women in community posts. See rambam hilchos melachim 5:1, below:

    אין מעמידין אשה במלכות שנאמר עליך מלך ולא מלכה, וכן כל משימות שבישראל אין ממנים בהם אלא איש
    “We do not appoint a woman to be a ruler in kingship, as it says “(establish) on yourselves a king,” and not a queen. And similarly all appointments in Yisrael, we only appoint a man ”

    Re, not leaving the house; the ideals have not changed, but circumstances have led to the application of different factors. Yes, chazal say women should not leave the house often, codified in the rambam and shu”a

    Rambam ishus 13:11

    גנאי הוא לאשה שתהא יוצאה תמיד, פעם בחוץ פעם ברחובות. ויש לבעל למנוע אשתו מזה, ולא יניחה לצאת אלא כמו פעם אחת בחודש או פעמיים בחודש, כפי הצורך, שאין יופי לאשה אלא לשבת בזוית ביתה, שכך כתוב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה,

    It is inappropriate for a woman to consistently leave, sometimes outside, sometimes in the street, and the husband should prevent this…

    However in today’s era, where women’s domestic responsibilities(which are halachik obligations, to take care of the house and children) often leave them with lots of free time(as well as empty nesters, single girls, etc) This must have been a typo of some sort – mod there’s another issue – chazal say idleness leads to a bigger lack of tznius! Not to mention insanity. So for women to not be outside can be problematic in our time through the lens of chazal, not modern thought.

    Re, Israeli government; being involved in the government itself is a b’dieved situation and the gedolim who support being involved in it permit such activity despite the fact that the government is heretical and full of frei people, so dealing with women is just another part of that.

    But should it enter your mind to say that nowadays rabbonim would allow women to be more involved in the world due to social changes, see shu”t seridei aish chelek 1 teshuvah 150

    מ”מ הסכמנו כולנו, שבחירת הנשים היא נגד מנהג ישראל ונגד המוסר הישראלי בחיי הציבור, שהשתדלו תמיד לשמור על כבודה בת מלך פנימה, שהאשה הישראלית תשמור את ביתה ואת חינוך ילדי’ ואל תהי’ קולנית ויוצאנית, לפזר כוחה ולהרוס צניעותה, ולאבוד את חינה וטעמה על ידי ריב ומדנים פוליטיים וציבוריים”

    The seridei aish, who was somewhat zionistic and was “in the middle” of both charedim and religious zionist rabbis, said that a woman being involved in politics and using her abilities for things other than her family and house will ruin her tznius and her chein, applying kol kevudah in this context.

    Re, doctors; no one ever said a woman can’t have and be successful at a career of her choice, provided it does not interfere with her halachik obligations to her family. The idea that women used to be a prisoner amd and “now” can be “free” is a non jewish import. Women used to work from home and were sometimes quite successful, so much so that chazal said a woman can declare herself financially independent from her husband if she so chooses, to keep her wages in exchange for not being supported with food from her husband. Where it becomes a problem of heretical feminism is when that becomes an ideal that women should aspire to; it’s not, and rav moshe feinstein clearly writes that such ideas are forbidden.


    Ghd, it doesn’t really matter whether times have changed, I’m not convinced that there was ever an inyan at any time in history for a man to require his wife to be confined to her home, as UJM seems to misinterpret the halacha to say (as if such a thing is even possible). There have been (and probably still are) many tzniusdike women who have chosen to stay home when possible, and the Torah may encourage such a choice, but that’s very different.


    Avira, thank you for posting the source in the Rambam. I notice it says יש למנוע, which means it’s advisable for the husband to discourage his wife from going out excessively, not that it’s mandatory, and not that he should force her, chas veshalom. It’s very important to present halachos correctly, which UJM did not do.


    Avi, Sarah was a navi. Hashem told Avraham that she was right in that one episode.

    Many times women are right, such as the wife of Ohn ben Peles. However, often the wife is wronf, such as the wives of Korach, or Rebbe Elazar ben Arach(not to compare the two, but both were tragedies)


    Avi K:
    It is a nice sensitivity to use the woman’s first initial, rather than her full name, in the byline, if that’s what you mean. Again, that is limiting her exposure to the public. It’s permitted to use the full name, of course, but it is still a sensitivity to use the first initial.

    Comparing to Devorah and Bruriah is ridiculous because we need to know those names as that is Torah – as opposed to a newspaper article for which there is zero need to know the first name of the author.


    Aseh, the word yesh is used by chiyuvim all the time in poskim… sorry, but this is where experience in learning comes in. You’re free to verify this with any kollel man or Orthodox rav who answers shailos.



    Also without that, the next words are “and he should not be maniach/let her go out….” which clarifies any doubt as to his intention



    “chazal say idleness leads to a bigger lack of tznius! Not to mention insanity.”

    You seem to have a great deal of time on your hands, which might explain a few things.

    How often do you let your wife out of the house?


    My personal opinion is that not showing pictures of modestly dressed women when the picture would be pertinent to the news story or article is silly, but that’s just me. What I really find fault with is when a chashuve rebbetzin or any other women in our community wins some important award or accomplishes major deed, the frum press not only doesn’t show her picture, they show a picture of her husband who has no shaichas to the story.


    Mods, i don’t remember how what i said about the next words in the rambam being an insult – i generally avoid insults. I said that the next few words after “yesh limnoah” ehich are “,and he shouldn’t let her…” clarify the issue. The poster himself earlier said that he wasn’t trained in learning, so i was recommending that he seek the guidance of someone who is. If he said that then I will remove the comment. 


    Wife of Korach*

    Reb Eliezer

    I thought it says the opposite emor maat veaseh harbeh.

    ☕️coffee addict

    “Ghd, it doesn’t really matter whether times have changed, I’m not convinced that there was ever an inyan at any time in history for a man to require his wife to be confined to her home, as UJM seems to misinterpret the halacha to say“

    Doesn’t the Gemara list three different types of people one of the throwing out the wine with the fly inside and says that type of person locks the door on his wife so that she doesn’t leave and she’s מזנה תחתיו correct me if I’m wrong


    “And while I’m not learned enough to know exactly where to find these Rambams and Shulchan Aruch’s that you quote without citing any siman or s’if”

    I was responding to this.



    Avira, I said I wasn’t learned enough to know where to find the Rambam without a citation, which is true. I’m much more interested in hearing your explanation on how to get to the correct pshat in the Rambam than in your guesses about how much experience I have or don’t have in learning (nobody else here cares!). But thanks for the mussar. I really should spend more time learning instead of posting things here.

    Reb Eliezer, good job catching the joke.


    Today a female soldier was killed while on duty in the North and all the Israeli Haredi newspapers are covering up the fact that she was a soldier. This is so offensive, this person died because she was on duty for her country, how dare you take that away from her??! If you have an issue with female soldiers, you can call her servicewoman or whatever but to write nothing?? I’m blown away


    > Our Ruv has also made changes to the Megillah taking out anything improper.

    Stop right here, even in Adar. I heard from the peh of the old Lakewood mashgiach that “Esther becomes Mordechai’s Rebbe” after she was ready to do mesiras nefesh by going to Achashverosh. Yes, it was Adar, but the Rav was not drunk and walking on his own accord. So, it is OK to call women Rebbes.


    > idleness leads to a bigger lack of tznius! Not to mention insanity.

    This is about her not sitting without doing any work even if she can afford it. If she is going out to her job as a CEO or an MD, idliness is not an issue.

    In fact, one could argue from this position – women should go out. Husband is at work, kids at cheder, washing machine does it’s job. What is the woman supposed to do? Browse internet? Shop online? Rearrange furniture? She is educated enough to understand which job is needed and which one is not. So, for santiy sake, she should go teach at school or work at a hospital.

    Avi K

    Pappas ben Yehuda kept his wife, Miriam Magdalei Neshaya (the Hairstylist), locked up at home. That is why she went OTD. – Gittin 90a


    Aaq – for once you and I are basically saying something very similar. I was saying that it’s problematic in today’s society to stay at home all the time if not occupied with domestic responsibilities and sleeping, eating etc… because being idle leads to shigayon and zimah.

    Not that i agree that there’s a mayloh in being in any particular field of work; doctors will not he higher in shomayim than plumbers.


    With the backing & support of (the biggest & well-known) Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbanim, Poskim & Askanim I have been lobbying the powers that be in Washington on behalf of Kedushas Yisroel. There is an insidious plan to put Harriet Tubman on the $20 bill.
    This will be a gross breach of tsnius. How will our Buchrim be able to shteig when there is pritzus literally in their pockets?
    One Rosh Yeshiva said he will ban $20 bills at his Yeshiva.
    Another one said he will expel any Talmid who is found with a $20 bill.
    With all the PC about minorities I have been suggesting to politicians to replace Harriet Tubman with Tupac Shakur, Bill Cosby or OJ Simpson.


    Avi, do you think the rambam and shulchan aruch weren’t aware of that? Or the gemara that talks about eimah yeserah?

    The answer is obvious. Taking anything to an extreme is a problem. Not letting a woman out of the house enough or not at all is taking the idea too far. Your answer is to throw the baby out with the bath water.


    @kuvult, You see the strategy worked, the reason the Susan B Anthony coin did not take off was because the rosh yeshivas came out against it, there was a lot of opposition to the Loonie in Canada because people were worried about have bad thoughts about birds.


    > doctors will not he higher in shomayim than plumbers

    There are several questions here, what are your answers
    1. Is there a mitzva of doing chesed, saving lives, caring for sick.
    2. What is schar for that when you are well paid. I asked this shaila and was told that as long as the person is motivated to do chesed rather than higher pay, he is a tzaddik. The rav is anti college, all of his children are tchim or businessmen, but one brother is a doctor.
    3. Should the person strive to do more mitzvos if he is capable.


    Kuvalt: You forgot to consider have the mug shot of R’ Yosef put on $2 bills which have traditionally been synonymous with integrity and traditional values. What greater kovod could a CR poster be endowed with than to have his admirers proudly say that he has a much credibility as a $2 bill”.


    Some of the gadolim of our time have been treated by medical teams that include both men and women when their lives were at risk.

    Actually, women were quite prevalent in the medical field in the times of Chazal. The Gemara describes Rebbe Yochanan as having gone to a certain doctor who was a woman. Abbaye’s step mother was a doctor, and I Gemara quotes her advice.

    The reason for the Kesuba arrangement is that in those days woman weren’t usually able to make a sustainable living. Most jobs in those days were either traveling investors or day laborers. Even in these “progressive” days, women don’t frequent these markets. Therefore, Chazal instituted the Kesuba, where the man is obliged to support all her needs, and in return she does her part.

    But even then, the wife had the right to forgo the arrangement and proclaim that she can provide for herself: for example, if she is a doctor.

    Today, with the second advent of the sedentary industries, including law, academia, labs, computers etc. women are much more able to work and earn competitive wages.

    And so, nothing changed in the realm of Hashkafa, in this regard.


    Aa1, rav Moshe writes in a teshuva that not only is there no mitzvah at all in being a doctor, the motivation for those who do is almost entirely because of money. And he had a son in law who was a doctor.

    It’s only the maskilim who praised doctors as some sort of angels, because they believed that they have the independent power to heal people. Maaminim believe that they’re merely shluchim.


    You can do chesed with practically every job in the world; being a plumber lets people use the bathroom. If not for him, people would be in a very bad situation. You’re letting Jews also keep the mitzvah of bal tishaktzu.

    If you’re in real estate, you’re helping people get homes. If you’re an accountant, you’re helping jews get tax refunds or allowing their businesses to function well.

    The list goes on


    One more thing to point out.

    The common notion of Tznius is a misrepresentation of Daas Chachamim. Anywhere that the Gemara discusses what we call today Tznius, the Gemara refers to it as Kavod.

    It is almost a lost sensitivity. However, people invoke כל כבודה as if it is a sentence being imposed — but for your own good. But the whole point of that verse is exactly about honor.

    Picture an actual princess of old. If she is only seen from time to time there is a special respect everyone would have in her presence. But once you begin seeing her in the market every day, there is only so long that you can maintain that special attitude.

    This has clearly happened in the last 100 years, or so. Men used to act more refined when in the company of women, especially non-relatives. There is still a remnant of this, that seem almost arbitrary by now. But mostly, it is gone.

    You can’t turn back the clock, but you can try to capture what was veing conveyed by these descriptions of refinement. And perhaps we can still grasp on to some of it, maintain what is possible, adapt what can be adapted, and learn from the rest.

    Women have indeed been mistreated in many places, in many ages. This lead to a counter reaction and an unhealthy jealousy, and a desire to act fully like men, rather than to gain their own respect. But to the outside observer, the honor and respect that had been there is gone.

    What is really gained by drilling in the street? How does faking macho stuff make you proud? What’s the big idea? It’s as silly as men showing off that they can cry and hug a bear.

    My bottom line is that these Maamarim are indeed advice for respect, and not sentences. If society has lost the desire for the respect, and people are interested, I don’t see the point in bringing it up. But it is a mess.


    Avira, IIRC that Tshuva was saying that you can’t consider studying to become a doctor, Pikuach Nefesh. Not that a doctor isn’t doing a Mitzva by saving lives since he makes money.

    Avi K

    Aira, please cite where Rav Moshe’s alleged teshuva appears. I find it very difficult to believe that he would write something like that. Besides, doctors and nurses can certainly find professions that pay at least equally well, without the crazy hours and astronomical malpractice insurance premiums caused by juries who think that they are doing chesed by giving out huge awards.

    In any case, Chazal say that it is a mitzva (Sukka 25a). See Nishmat Avraham, OC 38,6 in the name of Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein that this is even if they are paid.


    Avira, I absolutely agree that people can, and should try to, do chesed in any job. This is under-rated. many Jews used to be in a situation where holding any job/business was necessary for survival. In our days, B’H, people have some choice and it makes sense to choose the one where you do more chesed (in addition to other considerations on how it affects your own life). So, indeed, possibly a good plumber is better than a bad doctor…

    But in any case, one should probably maximize amount of chesed he does – she ein lachem shiur. It will look weird if someone helps an old lady cross the street and check off “did chesed today”. So, someone visiting a sick person is great, someone who visits ten – is better; someone who can actually operate on a sick person and heal him – even better; someone who invents a drug that helps thousands – even better. Not in a sense that one person is better than the other, but in a sense that if the same person can do more, he should do more.


    A wife should be forbidden to leave the house until dinner is cooked, laundry done, house cleaned, the exception being to go out for groceries, but I suggest being machmir and get deliveries. If it’s being delivered by a male driver,she must remain in the house until he leaves, then schlep the boxes up herself.
    BH for nanny cams, so the husband can keep a close eye on her

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