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  • #2262170
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Get-r-dun

    With all respect, you are not an especially good troll. The CR is privileged to have a world class misogynist in Reb Yosef (aka UJM). Perhaps study his technique and style and try again after you have refined your skills.

    #2262192
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    Gadol
    I am New at this, I promise to work and improve on this, but it’s hard when I have to keep a close eye on my wife…

    #2262193
    ujm
    Participant

    Don’t blame the messenger because you don’t like the message. I didn’t author the Shulchan Aruch OR the Rambam.

    #2262201
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Joseph,

    Yeah, you keep saying that; thou doth protest too much, methinks. The Rambam also writes that a husband may discipline his wife, even physically. How often do you beat your wives?

    #2262216
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Gadol, you’re mixing up the Rambam with the sefer yereim. The latter holds that a man is allowed to physically discipline his wife. Other rishonim hold that way too, but the Rambam makes no mention of it, and neither does shulchan aruch. Like all methods of mussar, they are subject to the ultimate question of if it will work – in today’s age, and really for the past 200 years, the answer to that is a resounding “no.” It does not work. It’s not wrong in principle, because there were rishonim who mention it, and if it works to ensure that the wife adheres to halacha, why is it any different than beis din beating people to comply with halacha?

     

    #2262218

    Because husbands aren’t a bais din?

    #2262253
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Aveira,

    The Rambam is in Hilchos Ishus 21:10; you’re free to verify this with any kollel man or Orthodox Rav. Since “it’s not wrong in principle”, how often do you beat your wife?

    #2262266
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Dofi – here’s the Rambam you’re citing. It doesn’t say that the husband forces her, it says that the beis din does. And it’s not even referring to tznius, it’s talking about not fulfilling her domestic responsibilities. “Kofin” means “we” force her, lashon rabim.

    שתמנע מלעשות מלאכה מן המלאכות שהיא חייבת לעשותן כופין אותה ועושה אפילו בשוט. טען הוא שאינה עושה והיא אומרת שאינה נמנעת מלעשות מושיבין אשה ביניהן או שכנים. ודבר זה כפי מה שיראה הדיין שאפשר בדבר

    The Rambam likewise says that beis din forces men to fulfill their requirements to their wives.

    Mod – my point was that force isn’t a bad thing in itself. Comparison wasn’t so great, but if something is advocated in the rishonim, who are we to say it’s objectively immoral? To be clear, i in no way think it’s acceptable in any circumstance for a spouse to strike one another, without exception, both because halacha doesn’t seem to follow those shitos and because it’s not only not effective but grossly harmful in our time.

    #2262267
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I’ll also add that any beis din will side with a wife who is being reprimanded by her husband with any sort of physical means

    #2262284
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    GOSH!!!

    Frogette is not going to let me on to the Coffee Room! I may get ideas ח”ו.

    #2262288
    ujm
    Participant

    Dofi: The Rambam in Hilchos Ishus 21:10 is saying that Beis Din can administer corporal punishment to the wife, in such circumstances. NOT that the husband can.

    #2262294
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Not only ineffective*

    #2262295
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm, it’s not punishment. It’s forcing her or the husband to perform mitzvos, which is done across the board. It is noteworthy that the Rambam says “even with a stick” by a woman and doesn’t say “even” by men, since it’s a chidush that even beis din would use a stick to hit a woman.

    #2262328
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Aveira,

    If Rishonim hold that it’s acceptable for a husband to beat his wife, how dare you write “it’s not only not effective but grossly harmful in our time”? That’s every bit as heretical as saying that Chazal didn’t know how to build cars or nuclear weapons!

    #2262361
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Dofi, people change, hashkofa doesn’t.

    #2262364
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Also, while people might change, psychological chazakos/umdenos do not. Even rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik was staunchly opposed to any idea which questioned the application of things like טב למיתב etc.. he said these chazakos are metaphysical realities.

    #2262365
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    So if chazal advocated for physical mussar in such terms, we would still do it nowadays. But they don’t. It’s in rishonim, who also do not give it any unconditional application. Therefore we apply conditions to those shitos – that’s besides the fact that the consensus of poskim appears to not be in accordance to those shitos.

    So to recap:

    Thus discussion, though a weak attempt at displaying my supposed hypocrisy, has nothing to do with chazal at all, as we are talking about not unqualified statements of rishonim.

    Moreover, the halacha does not follow those rishonim.

    #2262375

    > I didn’t author the Shulchan Aruch OR the Rambam.

    amazing humility. techincally, rambam is a person, so you should say that you did not father rambam, i.e. you aint Maimon.

    #2262384

    “If Rishonim hold that it’s acceptable for a husband to beat his wife, how dare you write “it’s not only not effective but grossly harmful in our time”? That’s every bit as heretical as saying that Chazal didn’t know how to build cars or nuclear weapons!”

    I was just having a discussion with my wife about parenting and I blame it all on feminism and TV

    The Mishnah is sotah says “in ikvasa d’meshicha…. Chutzpah will be rampant a son will disgust his father a daughter will stand up to her mother etc” and I said that is was all do to the two things I mentioned

    Those two things changed the psyche of people that made it that a father can’t hit his kids or his wife and therefore the family hierarchy is destroyed because women view themselves on equal level to the father and therefore kids devalue their parents

    If you look at Arab countries where there is no feminism and tv only shows what they want the kids are way more obedient (cue the kids in Gaza)

    Just my humble opinion, I’m sorry if I offended anyone

    And to answer gadolhadofi that’s how people changed and it answers how the rishonim can know nuclear physics

    #2262404
    2scents
    Participant

    CA,

    Gaza is a tiny fraction of the Arabic population. The vast majority of the nearly half a billion Arabs are not the same Arabs as the Palestinians.

    #2262467

    2cents,

    What I said holds true for other Arab countries too I was just using it as an example

    #2262544

    Also, while people might change, psychological chazakos/umdenos do not. Even rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik was staunchly opposed to any idea which questioned the application of things like טב למיתב etc.. he said these chazakos are metaphysical realities.

    Isn’t there one about a person not denying a debt in their creditor’s presence that we don’t apply anymore?

    (Hi, everyone. Don’t expect to see me much.)

    #2262684
    2scents
    Participant

    CA,

    “What I said holds true for other Arab countries too I was just using it as an example”.

    It seems you’re treating an assumption as if it were a fact.

    #2262720

    2cents,

    Do you know otherwise

    I’ve heard about it happening in Egypt too

    #2262741
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    For those of you who think its funny trolling about spousal abuse, perhaps grow up and stop demonstrating your ignorance and immaturity.

    #2263364
    2scents
    Participant

    CA,

    “Do you know otherwise

    I’ve heard about it happening in Egypt too”

    Yes, I deal with several religious Arabs from different countries regularly in a professional setting, they are not like the Palestinians, or how you portray them to be.

Viewing 26 posts - 51 through 76 (of 76 total)
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