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I noticed theres quite a bit of anti Non Jew sentiment here as well as in the frum “velt” in general. Its time to clear up some serious misconceptions that a lot of people are living with.
Conversation With Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach On Chesed And Being A “Mench”
Questioner: Is there a Chiyuv to do Gemilus Chesed and help out Goyim? For example you see him lost and looking for directions. Should you go over to him and help him find his way?
Rav Shlomo Zalman: Yes there is an Inyan of Darkei Sholom.
Q: What if he didn’t ask you and there is no issue of Darkei Sholom, should you go over to volunteer help?
RSZ: Yes you can go over and help him.
Q: Is this because Derech Eretz Kodma LaTorah?
RSZ: I don’t know what it is because of but you need to be a mentch (Ben Adam).
Q: I know I am allowed to help, but should I help?
RSZ: Yes, you should help him.
See also Rambam Hilchos Melachim Perek 10 on the proper behavior of Bnei Avrohom (Aleihu Lo Yibol YD 12)
Revach.net Editors Note: Rav Shlomo Zalman like all great tzaddikim never did, said, or thought anything unless it was Daas Torah. Emotions, politics, and cultural influences did not enter the realm of his decision making beyond the extent that Daas Torah considered these factors (which it does when warranted). In this vane Rav Shlomo Zalman’s psak that you must be a mentch was not a feel good or PR psak.
The conclusion drawn here is that being a mench is Daas Torah and even comes before the Torah (See Shaarei Kedusha from Rav Chaim Vital). Therefore Chesed to Goy should be performed with the same “L’Shem Yichud” that you would say with any other Mitzva or else you have missed the point.
I find it interesting that the “asker” is actually asking the question!
You see a person in need YOU HELP THEM!!
Who cares about their race, religion, sexuality, creed…. ?
Yes, presumably the mitzva to help a jew is supposed to be a result of an emotion of wanting to help him. I can see little reason why that emotion would not apply to a goy.
Now, there are some people who it is a mitzva to shecht, like an oved avoda zara. So if you see an oved avoda zara needing help, I suppose you should conquer your feeling of wanting to help him, and if you can, shecht him.
im sorry…whats the chidush?
I noticed theres quite a bit of anti Non Jew sentiment here as well as in the frum “velt” in general.
be very careful
this is your perception that it is anti gentile sentiment
do not forget, on the other hand, the very important Mitzvah that the Jewish People must keep separate from the nations, neither mingle nor assimilate nor even follow their customs.
and even though there is a mixture of true anti-gentile sentiment along with this in the velt..we are a people that has been tortured, decimated, persecuted, murdered in the millions, throughout our history by these nations. let us not forget this. we do not turn the other cheek.
nevertheless, of course we must behave as menchen especially in times of peace where anti-semitism is as strong as ever, but buried beneath a thin veneer of tolerance.
yes youre right
just dont forget this is a complex inyan and dont judge everyone who has a negative opinion or who is not negative but is trying to be mkaim the inyon of havdallah
its not as simple as you are presenting it
i added in to your spin, some additional basic yesodik principles which we must not forget
Much of German Jewry was quite sure the German people were the most civilized people in the world.
not only the most civilized. they were considered as the paradigm of manners and kindness of all peoples in the world.
these opposite extremes undoubtedly were to teach the Jewish People a lesson.
unfortunately so many lessons that we have been taught over and over and over again, continually fall on blind ears and eyes.
nevertheless we are obligated to act with menchlikeit to goyim that we see, because this is what Hashem wants as Rav Auerbach said.
It happens to be that Non Jews have a feeling that there is hostility.
There was a Non Jewish woman who I met at a networking event.
She asked me if I am allowed to shake her hand knowing that she is Gentile.
I was so embarrassed, I wished I could have vanished that second!!
thta may just be because she had been told that by a man who didnt want to shake her hand…
The gedolim of the past generation who we miss so very much, and who were our best teachers taught that above all else!! Be a mentch and that is what they role modeled for everyone. In all your dealings, in all your relationships be a mentch! What is so hard about that? If you are conscientious about being a mentch at all times then you will also be conscientious about yiras shamayim and vice a versa. In every mitzvah we learn in the Torah ben adom l’chaveiroh and even in Kashrus such as why we don’t eat meat and milk together, sheluach hakan, etc. It all teaches us compassion and how to be a mentch. Why can’t we just apply what the Torah teaches us to our daily lives and learn to be a mentch?
Along the lines of what Mod-80 said. I heard from the mouth of a grandson of R’ Ahron Kotler the following:
For whatever personal reasons some of the grandchildren of Rav ahron were living by him as children. At one point this grandson had to do a book report and did it on Abraham Lincoln. R’ Ahron walked into the room while he was reading his book and noticing that it wasn’t a sefer asked his grandson what he was reading. The grandson answered that he had a book report to do and he was doing it on Abraham Lincoln. “Who is this?”. A president, he was very honest, they call him Honest Abe etc. Rav Ahron says back “A goy is a goy is a goy”.
The moral of the story is, just because we are mechuyav for darkei shalom to be amicable to goyim does not mean we should start allowing them to sign our kesubos – and there is a reason why we don’t let them do that.
WIY,
I dont understand why you would feel it neccesary to point out that “Its blackhearted to paint all non Jews with a broad brush of anti semitism and Jew hatred” and yet at the same time say “Many Jews view non Jews as subhumans. They literally act like they are “nobody.” “.
Apparently you have a bigger issue with a jew painting a non-jew with a broad brush than you do with yourself painting jews negatively with a broad brush.
Can you explain that?
I think I can, but you would not want to hear it.
And it explains the title you chose for this thread, I hardly think anyone’s mind was blown. You just have a mistaken perception that that would be the case.
VDAL
For those who commute using the NY trains, I’m sure you are familiar with gentiles collecting money on the cartes. I was just wondering, are we obligated to give them something (even small amount like dollar/quarter) because poeple recognize us as being jewish, and it would surely make a kiddush hashem. Or, do we not have to bother because 1) they are gentiles 2) no one else in the cart gives them anyway, so why do we have to be differnt?
There is a such a thing as tsadikkim asher be’umos haolam (Yerushalmi, 2-nd Perek of B’rachos; other places). Some people’s extreme and ignorant opinions lead them to aveiros: not caring about Chillul HaShem, not loving Geirim, hisgarus be’Umos ha’Olam etc.These opininos are against Da’as Chazal and common sense. This is not the place to discuss what happened in Germany. But you can rest assured, that these type of wrong shitos were used by the Nazis to stir sinas Yisroel!
Jose, Love tocheichos!
I am curious when somebody say R’ Shlomo Zalman SAYS – how do we know that you didn’t hear it from somebody who heard it from somebody who made it up – I believe that you should quote gedolim with more accurate information, like where he said it – publicly, privately, written –
I know specific situations where people have used gedolim to offer a very ‘specific’ response to a ‘specific’ shailoh, and have then broadcast their ‘the Gadol paskened’ opinion
“A Goy is a Goy”. Ye, especially those who risked their and their families’ lives to save Jews during the Holocaust. It is critical not to misunderstand divrei Chazal and the Gedolim!! It is just mind-bogling and outrageous!
WIY,
I understand and respect your sentiment that Jews should be very mindful of acting like mentschen, because we are to be a light to the nations. I think it is possible, however, that you are mischaracterizing some of your observations of Jewish/Non-Jewish interactions as an anti-Goy sentiment on the part of the Jews, when in fact, the behavior is more a reflection of U.S. culture in general, particularly urban culture.
Take the doorman example. You are more attuned to Jews, being Jewish yourself, so you notice well when a Jew ignores the doorman. However, I would venture to guess that the vast majority of non-Jews also pass that same doorman without so much as a good morning as well. I think part of the reason is a great need for personal privacy in the U.S., especially when the population density is so high. Casual greetings can feel like an invasion of privacy, or personal thoughts, or your cell phone conversation, etc., and everyone dwells within his or her own mental box. I don’t think this is a good thing, but I wouldn’t use it to accuse Jews of being anti-Goy. For example, doesn’t the Jew who ignored the doorman also ignore other Jews passing by on the street? That has been my experience when visiting New York.
One final comment on Jewish behavior being blamed for anti-Semitism. I once entered a Wal Mart in a very small town in the deep South. No Jewish presence there whatsoever. And oh was I stared at! And not friendly stares either. These were people who probably never met an Orthodox Jew before, yet they already felt hostility towards me. The unfortunate truth is that much of the stereotype of Jewish anti-Gentile sentiment arises not from the truth, but due to the anti-Jewish libels written in the religious texts of the majority religion in this country.
Jam,
I am trying to remember to keep a bit of cash on hand at all times when out for just that purpose. Once my wife was approached by a woman panhandling on a subway car. She didn’t have any small denomination cash on hand, so she gave the woman $20. Several months later, my wife was riding the subway again, and the same woman got into the car and started to panhandle. When she saw my wife, she gave her a big smile and did not hold out the cup. She remembered.
And I wonder, if they would have saved Yidden, had they been aware of these attitudes!
Jam,I think you should give small change.
You don’t lose out but helping or being a mentch to anyone.
I read a story (forgot which book) from the holocaust of a man who was saved by a goy. The goy warned him that the S.S. were in the building looking for him, and how to escape. Before he ran, he asked the man, why is he telling him this, and this man, who was the elevator man, said every morning, you would tell me good morning, while all the other passengers acted as if I didn’t exist. When the man broke his arm, the yid inquired about it, and had a doctor, look it and have it taken care of properly. This yid was saved because he cared and acted like a
mentch.
It does not take any extra effort to be kind to someone and wish them a greeting.
WIY, Where does the Pasuk refer to anyone but Klal Yisroel as His children?
mdd
“”A Goy is a Goy”. Ye, especially those who risked their and their families’ lives to save Jews during the Holocaust. It is critical not to misunderstand divrei Chazal and the Gedolim!! It is just mind-bogling and outrageous!”
Are you suggesting that Rav Ahron was wrong or that since Rav Ahron’s statement is not in concurrence with your beliefs he must have meant something else altogether?
Chasidei umos ha’olam are the yotzei min haklal and even the biggest of them cannot equal the lowest yid. This doesn’t mean we need to look down on them but its impossible to look at them as we would another jew.
To the myfriends and derechmelechs, I always thought huh was the definitive answer: why not exercise our muscles, at the very least. And HaLeivi, that may be so, but if the mishna says, chavivin adam shenivra b’Tzelem [Elokim], well, that’s a lot of food for thought right there.
Mr. WIY,
You say, and I quote, “But I guess that shouldnt surprise me because someone who looks down on their fellow Jews will certainly look down on non Jews “.
So apparently, following your “logic”, you certainly look down on non-jews. (BTW, there is a huge difference with taking issue with an individual’s attitude and taking him to task for it, and painting whole segments with a broad brush.)
So your diatribe was written to yourself, in the true mussar sense “az ich redt tzu zich aleyn”. And that is why you found the article on Revach so mind-blowing.
Irony, thy name is WIY.
tzippi
I’m not sure what you mean by “I always thought huh was the definitive answer: why not exercise our muscles, at the very least.”
I’m assuming you don’t mean that we are free to maintain shitos in contradiction to the gedolim. but then i’m not sure what you do mean.
re: Avos 3:14 chaviv adam shenivra btzelem…
you skipped out 2/3 of the mishnah:
chavivin yisrael shenikri’u banim l’makom…
chavivin yisrael shenitan lahem kli chemdah…
clearly the mishnah is differentiating between jews and goyim and putting us on a higher level. and if that doesn’t convince you, ask your husband or father summarize sha’ar alef in nefesh hachaim or yesod vshoresh ha’avodah and see how they go on and on about the chochos that we jews have in this world beyond any other being that even the rishonim argue whether malachim are greater than us or not.
Certainly we should all strive to be kind to all goyim both because of yashrus and to not be mechalel shem shamayim, but we can easily understand how someone who goes around knowing that he is a ben Melech higher than even the malachey shamayim can have trouble in this area.
“Certainly we should all strive to be kind to all goyim both because of yashrus …. understand how someone who goes around knowing that he is a ben Melech …can have trouble in this area.
Wrong. We are creatures of habit. If you are a nice person, it is easy to be kind to everyone. If you walk around like an arrogant ben melech, it’s difficult. It’s one or the other.
There is a gemora in Kiddushin about Dama ben Nesina (an Akum) who excelled in Kibbud Av ve’Eym. According to you, Derech HaMelech — eh, a Goy is a Goy.
Derech HaMelech, what you claim is Reb Aharon’s shita is contradicted by a number of Chazals.
While there are inherent ma’alos in being a ben of the Avos and a member of Klal Yisroel, a tsadik she’bahem can be a better human being than many shlechte Yidden.
And you are right, it is the misunderstanding of certain Hashkofos that leads to a lot of ga’ava and other aveiros.
Mdd – that isn’t according to Derech Hamelech. That is according to Maran Hagoan Harav Ahron Kotler zichrono tzadik l’vrocho. Take up your problems with Rav Ahron zt”l zy”a.
The lowest Yid is far far higher than the highest goy.
iN WHAT SENSE, HELPFUL?
According to you, Reb Aharon held something that is mufrach from a number of befeyrushe Gemoros.
helpful, so, a Jewish child molester is “higher” than Mother Theresa?
Not only are you delusional, what you express is not Jewish.
Why is it so hard to be a mentch? Is it so hard to say thank you to someone who holds the door open for you?
I know no one here is saying that, but I’m getting a sense that we shouldn’t treat non-Jews nicely!
There is a very broad line in my opinion between being a mentch and then getting close to them.
(And sorry to digress for a sec – i’m not a feminist in the least bit but this does include females as well. Just cuz you guys can’t look at us and whatever doesn’t mean that if we hold the door open for you, you can’t say thank you. Derech Eretz kadma l’torah!)
Just today my rav related a story from over 20 years ago when he was assaulted by someone who could easily have killed him. A Hispanic Christian from his neighborhood to whom he had been friendly intervened and saved his life, driving away the mugger.
I’ve also had the fortune of being able learn one on one with two charedi rabbis, one Chasidic, one Yeshivish. The Chasidic Rebbe would go out of his way to greet and thank the non-Jewish police officers who would guard the shul. The Yeshivish Rav would repeatedly relates stories of how important it is to treat non-Jews with total respect and dignity.
Yes, Homeowner, that Yid is far higher than the lowly Theresa.
I’d take Mother Teresa over Bobby Fischer.
Being a Jew gives you the potential for spiritual greatness. A non-Jew can only achieve that level by converting to Judaism, accepting the mitzvot. But we are entirely capable of rejecting that potential and lowering ourselves to the level of the lowest animals. And unfortunately, some of my fellow Jews have done just that.
I imagine any yid is higher than mother theresa. We are bonim lamokom, they are “merely” tzelem elokim.
How can you compare the progeny of Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov, whose neshama stood at har sinai and said naaseh v’nishma- to a goy?
So right, so Wrong!! WHAT DO YOUI MEAN???
Derech Hamelech, I know the mishna, I was just stressing that non-Jews aren’t chopped liver in Hashem’s eyes.
And to so right, I think that that one way that Jew is greater is in that he is making a much greater chillul Hashem (because of his capacity to make a greater kiddush Hashem?).
The problem with some people here is that they’ve been brainwashed by American liberalism and “equality”. No, there is no equality, not even close. Rid yourselves of your goyish-induced inferiority complex and pickup the proper Yiddish superiority complex. What, did I just utter the super politically-incorrect “superiority” claim? Yes, I proudly and properly did as a Jew.
WIY; (Post #6); All the good and negative qualities that you enumerate in that post make me wonder if it’s not a projection when you make those broad accusations (in a previous post) that the average religious Jewish person regards non-Jews in general as sub-human. Speaking about myself and most of my acquaintances and friends, I know that none of those negative traits exist in our interpersonal relationships with the general (non-Jewish) population whether at work or in other, casual, social settings. Among other things, you pat yourself on the shoulder for greeting the attendant who accompanies his patient to Shul. It so happens that at my Shul, there is a (non-Jewish) attendant present every Shabbos morning, who is greeted by most passersby. Those people who deviate from the standards of good behavior are disrespectful to others of the Jewish faith, too.
Bobby Fischer was a Jew. He was possibly the greatest chess player in history, and the only American born chessplayer who ranks with the greatest ever.
He was a Jew who converted to Christianity, violated a US embargo on Yugoslavia, didn’t pay his taxes, admired Hitler, denied the holocaust, described Jews as criminals and murderers, called himself the victim of an international Jewish conspiracy, applauded the 9/11 attacks, called for death to President Bush, called for a military coup in the US, called for the murder of Jewish leaders in the US, and called for the murder of half the Jews in Israel.
Still think Mother Teresa ranks below this rasha?
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