Time to make the popcorn

those so called self appointed ‘guardians of the law’ are nothing more than corrupt and self serving ‘distorters of the law’
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the reason why so many are still falling for their charade

is that the so called ‘guards of democracy’ , the ‘free’ press , are

as corrupted as their brothers in crime on the plum comfortable chairs in the courtrooms and legal offices
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hope that their downfall is imminent

and will signify the restoration of power to where it legally belongs …. the innocent citizens of this country .
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Joe, for Eretz Yisrael, the Torah supports a monarchy which is verified by a Navi. Shmuel appointed both Shaul and Dovid. When Mashiach comes, Eliyahu will verify who the Melech is.
For other nations, we would go by the Noachide laws, which state that a fair system of laws must be set up. I’d say that Democracy qualifies for this. So yes, Judaism, does endorse Democracy, as it falls under the Noachide law of Dinim.

@ UJM

“Democracy is not a Jewish concept. Judaism supports a monarchy that’s a Jewish theocracy.”

This is a gross oversimplification. But hey, who cares about details when it’s so much easier (and feels better) to make broad, unqualified statements. Carry on.

YYA> according to the letter of the law, there are 55,000 bochurim who are supposed to be arrested

nothing to be proud of. There are millions of people who cheat on taxes or in business, or break immigration, driving and parking regulations. Police arrests enough of them or give them tickets to keep the problem limited.

If you ask me – I would give them a Torah test and start from the ones who fail the test.
Those standing on the building during demonstration get two points off – risking their life and trespassing private property.
Those on top of the gas station – 3 points off. + Endangering others via a possible explosion.
If they were smoking – one more point off.

@AAQ

… could you in return ask people to stop saying “arrested for learning Torah”? [aaq]
——————–

suggestion accepted.

we will stop saying that .

We will rather say the following true and correct statement : “arrested for dedicating their life for Torah”.

those blatant illegal summonses [or rather kidnapping threats] are the diametric opposite to a life of dedication to torah

at least in the opinion of 99 % of all torah scholars on this planet , as measured in quantity and quality
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@AAQ

… this is “nullification of democracy” when both sides reject the others as legitimate. This is not a good siman.
[aaq]

—-

this a very good siman

this is a siman of honesty and calling things as they are

instead of politically correct hiding behind feel good slogans

which have no resemblance to reality

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this is not a nullification of democracy at all

this the exact opposite ,

this the DEFENSE of democracy
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democracy is translated as ‘will of the people’

whenever nazi’s , communists or crooks masquerading as judges and attorneys, subvert the will of the people

then democracy is in mortal danger
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to reject the abovementioned nazi’s , communists or crooks as illegitimate

is absolutely life saving for democracy

your whitewashing of those crooks is the ultimate death knell to democracy !

you should stop your insidious attacks on democracy
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“Democracy is not a Jewish concept. Judaism supports a monarchy that’s a Jewish theocracy.”

Keep telling yourself that. You know it’s not nearly as simple as that.

@yaakov yosef

as you rightly point out , many of the activities of the supreme court in Israel are plainly illegal , as is obvious to any astute and objective observer
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to use their illegal judgement to label non enlistees as criminals

is the moral equivalent of thieves sending innocent lifesaving ambulance drivers to jail

not only are they thieves who ought to pay for their thievery

they also are committing a terrible injustice by jailing innocents and hampering the ambulance drivers’ vital vocation

and to top it all off – the crooked thieves end up giving a mussar derasha to the lifesavers of the ambulance service

if this sounds surreal … that’s because it really is ….

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YYA> their conclusion was that over 90% of the bochurim registered do in fact learn full time.
> We have discussed ad nauseam why the IDF as it is now is not an option for Chareidim even if they don’t learn.

Ok, so then claim your position and defend it: your position is not about protecting learners, but about anyone form your community joining.
This is exactly what I was asking – be clear what you stand for. Don’t mislead people with different arguments. It does not surprise me, and probably, you too when leftists are using biased arguments against religious Jews. But it is bizayon to Torah when irresponsible arguments are made in the name of the Torah. A lot of comments here that use word “illegal” instead of “I disagree” illustrate that. You can’t use such language if you are an erliche Yid. And those who use it here are simply representative of much larger community that use this loshon. See Steipler’s letter.

Still, my impression is that many of the rabbonim would agree to service of those who are not learning, at least in part.

@AAQ

@yaakov yosef

as introduction :

we have to use our own sechel rather than outsource our own critical thinking to others ,

especially when we outsource it to those , either less qualified , or more biased than us , or both …

therefore we will have to reexamine all information we take from the outside world , check the facts and reality and thereafter

employ a thorough and critical spotlight to determine what we do or do not accept

otherwise we will fall into the same trap millions of useful idiots fell into.

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now re the supreme court ….

there are two terms which are very important : de facto and de jure

the reality is that the supreme court calls the shots in ey

so I agree that de facto the supreme courts decisions are binding

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the enabling act of 1933 was passed in berlin with over two thirds of the votes

and was de facto law in germany for the next 12 years

but de jure was not the law of the land

thus illegal

therefore all subsequent decrees and regulations which derived their power from this enabling law

were as illegal dejure as their source

same with supreme court in israel

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Some of the Gedolim agree to paying lip service to “quotas” which are tacitly understood to be filled mainly by shababniks, OTD, Chardakim, etc. who “are anyway being mechalel Shabbos and doing issurei kares”… (It is known in the Chareidi world who said that.) Others disagree even with that. There is a difference between “not learning” and “mechalel Shabbos” (“Issurei kares” means having a GF if you didn’t understand.)

It’s hardly a secret that was said by HaGaon HaRav Ahron Leib Shteinman. It was widely and publicly reported at the time:

Recently Released Letter By Maran HaRav SHteinman To Hagon HaRav Don Segal Regarding Nachal Charedi

AAQ is repeating his folly by proving his point by …. repeating his folly ….

if AAQ would bother to read and internalize my [repeated] post[s] regarding the idiocy of outsourcing your own critical thinking abilities to others

then he would not repeat his reliance on other people judgements re the ‘score’ of countries in their self designed ‘indexes’.

he would use HIS OWN sound judgement and stop being the useful idiot he is making himself into

his blind reliance on these brainwashers [and brainwashed] is fatally detrimental to his discovery of reality as it is

which is the first prerequisite in formulating sound solutions for the problems facing us.

instead he is , by his willful blindness, perpetuating the very problems he claims to address ….
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AAQ> And those who use it here are simply representative of much larger community that use this loshon. See Steipler’s letter.
YYA> The Steipler’s letter? Get real. He was talking about misrepresentation of Halacha, not Israeli secular law.

Maybe I am taking Steipler’s position too far – I am thinking the letter would kal vehomer include all kind of lying (of which he does not
accuse his opponents). Do you disagree?

YYA> The current Chief Justice of the SC was appointed through a highly questionable process, and despite having a problematic track record that would never have passed had he stood before a fair and representative committee. In the US the Senate must directly confirm appointments at this level.

You are probably right here. Israeli democracy has weak points that are hard to fix. But, as the numbers I quoted above show, Israeli democracy is in a reasonable state overall and is improving over time.

Somehow, halakhists spent centuries discussing fine points of kashrus, but did not develop good theories of democracy. R Gamliel has 1000 people in his household learning Torah and 1000 learning Greek. We lost that skill to balance things. Maybe it will come back … for example, according to a historian who studied Jewish Poland during Vaad Arba Artzos, Jewish political and business structures mostly mirrored Polish ones (that were pretty advanced and democratic by those times, until Poland missed out on industrialization)

Someone published a letter during WW2, being surprised at watching German Jews in British internment camps – they were learning about wars of Talmudic times, but totally ignored Normandy and such, even if those were to determine their fate. The author was frustrated with this Jewish disinterest to real life. Someone else forwarded this letter to R Soloveitchik asking him to respond publicly. He did not, but 10 years later, he recalled this letter saying: I hope the author is still alive and can see Israeli politics and observe that Jews are still able to be participants …

AAQ :
…. But, as the numbers I quoted above show, Israeli democracy is in a reasonable state overall and is improving over time ….
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an excellent example of obstinate adherence to the religion of useful idiocy …..
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Israeli democracy does not merely ‘have weak points’

It is being hijacked ,even as we speak.

By unelected crooks in an illegal way , aided and abetted by collaborators and useful idiots.

It will not be restored until the downfall of those crooks.

the above is a reflection of plain unadorned reality .

ignore it at your own peril .
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YYA> This is a general machlah of historians to read everything as Goyish influence on Jews, and not the other way around.

could you stop being so sensitive. The historian was observant. Jews affected Polish development, you are right, does not necessarily they built all of it.
You are expressing thes ame idea I am making – that Jews participated in the “modern” (at the time) economy.

> The amhaaretz who saw them expressed his frustration. The Gemara Yidden are still here, the Nazis are long gone. Our fate is determined by the same One who gave us the Gemara. אוי ואבוי if our “pride” is in Israeli politics רחמנא ליצלן. Participants in what exactly? The only reason anyone remembers Rav Soloveitchik himself is because of his Torah.

I think you are right here. R Soloveichik writes exactly that – Jewish community is formed around a Teacher, not around a politician or a party. Still, there is no denial that his Torah is about how to be involved in the world, how to navigate this world without losing integrity of Torah.

And, if you want, the demonstration that you enjoyed so much is exactly an answer to that confused observer – those Gemara Yidden can participate in politics all right when they decide to.

yankel> adherence to ‘indexes’ and ‘scores’

this index is computed by international organizations for the whole world. It generally makes sense. It does not claim that China or Russia or Iran are democratic! If there is a possible bias, it will be anti-Israel especially in the last several years. I am not sure why it is “groupthink” to pay attention to a compilation of data. You seem to be rejecting it just because it exists.

@ AAQ

“Still, there is no denial that his Torah is about how to be involved in the world, how to navigate this world without losing integrity of Torah”

So was RSR”H. However, He was also about not joining together with secular reformists even for common goals. He held this would lead to compromising / watering down the Torah. This seems to be an area where RYB”S and RSR”H parted ways. To be fair, there where competent disputants to RSR”H’s position on this matter even in his generation. However
1) Today we can soberly observe the fruits of both approaches
2) None of this is relevant to IDF enlistment where the people at the top are hell bent on secularizing frum Yidden

YYA> It is composed by Leftist Progs who rate countries by how Progressive they are… If Israel went up the list it is NOT a good sign

I see your concern. Economist Intelligence Unit is indeed considered slightly-left. Freedom house is more to the right. It grades Israel 73/100 free, USA 84, UK 92.